Thrangu R. on prayer and deities, etc.

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Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Thrangu R. on prayer and deities, etc.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

These quotes are from Thrangu R. in his book "Medicine Buddha Teachings", starting on p. 159. First he covers the idea of supplication and prayer for Shravakayana.
...in the common vehicle, the basic teachings of the Buddha, (the Hinayana teachings), it appears as though it is taught that the ultimate result of the path is what is called arhat without remainder. There it is taught that when someone completes the path--which means that they remove or abandon all of the causes of samsara, all karma, and all kleshas--then they naturally attain the result of that removal, which is the cessation of the results of those causes, which means the total cessation of samsaric existence for that individual. Since they have abandoned the causes and therefore experience the cessation of results, according to the common vehicle, there is nothing whatsoever left--which is called arhat without remainder. So from the point of view of the common vehicle, one's own liberation depends entirely, without any exception whatsoever, upon one's attainment through meditation, and there is no point whatsoever in supplication or prayer to anyone or anything outside oneself, because there is simply no one to pray to.
So there is definitely the idea in this form of Buddhism that you are on your own and there's no point in praying to anybody or anything. However Thrangu R. continues...
The Vajrayana view is different from that According to the Vajrayana, as according to the Mahayana, there have appeared innumerable Buddhas and Bodhisattvas.
[edit for brevity]
Having attained Buddhahood, they actually have the capacity to grant their blessing, and it is for that reason that we make offerings, that we perform prostrations, that we supplicate, and so on.
[edit for brevity]
So from the Vajrayana point of view, there is in fact something topiary to, and doing so does facilitate one's attainment of the result.
DW has a lot of threads and posts about these points. I just thought I'd share how an authority on Karma Kagyu view sees it.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Thrangu R. on prayer and deities, etc.

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:34 pm
So from the Vajrayana point of view, there is in fact something topiary to, and doing so does facilitate one's attainment of the result.
DW has a lot of threads and posts about these points. I just thought I'd share how an authority on Karma Kagyu view sees it.
Of course there is an object of supplication, relatively speaking, and the merit of making such supplications supports the attainment of buddhahood. No one rejects this.

But not even buddhas exist from their own side.
Natan
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Re: Thrangu R. on prayer and deities, etc.

Post by Natan »

The King of Samadhi Sutra extols the benefits is supplications and offerings the result being the samadhi of non origination of phenomena aka dharmakaya.
Malcolm
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Re: Thrangu R. on prayer and deities, etc.

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:05 pm The King of Samadhi Sutra extols the benefits is supplications and offerings the result being the samadhi of non origination of phenomena aka dharmakaya.
Yes, of course.
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Re: Thrangu R. on prayer and deities, etc.

Post by Astus »

Blessings are the inspiration gained by devotion to progress on the path.

'Sometimes people think that blessings are something that will make them shake, tremble, and even levitate. But that is not what blessings are. Blessings are the power of the Dharma. When we encounter the power of the Dharma, we start to feel faith, and then we become diligent. We feel love and compassion, and we develop tranquility and insight. This is what blessings are. They are the absence of greed, aversion, and delusion. If we can entirely rid ourselves of those three things right away, that is wonderful, but even if not, we can decrease and suppress them. That is blessings.'
(Vivid Awareness by Thrangu Rinpoche, p 41)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
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Re: Thrangu R. on prayer and deities, etc.

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:53 pm Blessings are the inspiration gained by devotion to progress on the path.

'Sometimes people think that blessings are something that will make them shake, tremble, and even levitate. But that is not what blessings are. Blessings are the power of the Dharma. When we encounter the power of the Dharma, we start to feel faith, and then we become diligent. We feel love and compassion, and we develop tranquility and insight. This is what blessings are. They are the absence of greed, aversion, and delusion. If we can entirely rid ourselves of those three things right away, that is wonderful, but even if not, we can decrease and suppress them. That is blessings.'
(Vivid Awareness by Thrangu Rinpoche, p 41)
Exactly.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Thrangu R. on prayer and deities, etc.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

ibid p.144: [of the old edition]
Thrangu R. wrote: Q: Could you talk about the relationship between purification and blessing?

A: These two--purification and receiving blessings--are distinct. They are not exactly the same. Purification means that the obscurations--the cognitive obscurations, which is ignorance, and the afflictive obscurations, which are the mental afflictions and the karmic obscurations or the negative karma that you have accumulated--are gradually purified, which means removed from you. And receiving blessing means that through your supplication of the Buddhas or of the Dharma, you receive their blessing. For example, when you supplicate the Medicine Buddha, through the power of you own supplication combined with the power of the twelve aspirations made by the Medicine Buddha, something happens, and that is called blessing. On the other hand, while purification and blessing are distinct, either one can cause the other. The removal of obscurations allows you to receive the blessings (more fully) and receiving blessings brings about the removal of obscurations.
(formatting mine)

Okay, so "something happens"? Tell me more! Oh well, I guess he just doesn't want to go there.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Thrangu R. on prayer and deities, etc.

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:37 pm ibid p.144: [of the old edition]
Thrangu R. wrote: Q: Could you talk about the relationship between purification and blessing?

A: These two--purification and receiving blessings--are distinct. They are not exactly the same. Purification means that the obscurations--the cognitive obscurations, which is ignorance, and the afflictive obscurations, which are the mental afflictions and the karmic obscurations or the negative karma that you have accumulated--are gradually purified, which means removed from you. And receiving blessing means that through your supplication of the Buddhas or of the Dharma, you receive their blessing. For example, when you supplicate the Medicine Buddha, through the power of you own supplication combined with the power of the twelve aspirations made by the Medicine Buddha, something happens, and that is called blessing. On the other hand, while purification and blessing are distinct, either one can cause the other. The removal of obscurations allows you to receive the blessings (more fully) and receiving blessings brings about the removal of obscurations.
(formatting mine)

Okay, so "something happens"? Tell me more! Oh well, I guess he just doesn't want to go there.
we start to feel faith, and then we become diligent. We feel love and compassion, and we develop tranquility and insight.
There is your something.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Thrangu R. on prayer and deities, etc.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: But not even buddhas exist from their own side.
They don’t have to in order to function in the way Rinpoche explains.
Thrangu R wrote: So from the Vajrayana point of view, there is in fact something to pray to, and doing so does facilitate one's attainment of the result.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Thrangu R. on prayer and deities, etc.

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: But not even buddhas exist from their own side.
They don’t have to in order to function in the way Rinpoche explains.
of course. If they did, they couldn't.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Thrangu R. on prayer and deities, etc.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:55 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:37 pm ibid p.144: [of the old edition]
Thrangu R. wrote: Q: Could you talk about the relationship between purification and blessing?

A: These two--purification and receiving blessings--are distinct. They are not exactly the same. Purification means that the obscurations--the cognitive obscurations, which is ignorance, and the afflictive obscurations, which are the mental afflictions and the karmic obscurations or the negative karma that you have accumulated--are gradually purified, which means removed from you. And receiving blessing means that through your supplication of the Buddhas or of the Dharma, you receive their blessing. For example, when you supplicate the Medicine Buddha, through the power of you own supplication combined with the power of the twelve aspirations made by the Medicine Buddha, something happens, and that is called blessing. On the other hand, while purification and blessing are distinct, either one can cause the other. The removal of obscurations allows you to receive the blessings (more fully) and receiving blessings brings about the removal of obscurations.
(formatting mine)

Okay, so "something happens"? Tell me more! Oh well, I guess he just doesn't want to go there.
we start to feel faith, and then we become diligent. We feel love and compassion, and we develop tranquility and insight.
There is your something.
I remember an incident with the previous Kalu R. that I've posted here on DW before. I personally witnessed this. It was the first time I'd come across the idea of "blessing".

Rinpoche was walking down the beach (Aptos, CA., fall of '77) and turned to walk up the pier. At one point a seagull got tangled in a fisherman's line. One of out guys, Yeshe, untangled it. The bird was in a complete panic, pecking anybody or anything he could to get free. Yeshe brought it over to Rinpoche to bless. Rinpoche was saying 'Om Mani Padme Hung', the simplest and most basic mantra. Rinpoche reached out, and the moment he hand touched the bird, the bird froze, then cocked its head to look at Rinpoche as if surprised. (Seagulls have 360 degree sight, so I'm projecting that bit of information.) In any case the bird had completely forgotten its mortal terror just moments before. After a few seconds Rinpoche motioned for Yeshe to let the bird go. The bird started moving again, squirming, but not panicked as it had been before. Yeshe took it to the side of the pier and let it fly away.

So I'm going to say that Kalu Rinpoche was giving the bird a "blessing"--whatever that means. Can I describe what the bird was experiencing? Obviously not. Have I personally experienced a blessing like that? No. But as I said before, whatever Rinpoche was communicating to the bird was powerful enough to make the bird forget its mortal terror. My guess is that the bird was experiencing something good. But that's just my guess.

So yeah, I believe that there are things, or events/experiences that we can call blessings that are out of the ordinary. Of course I won't ask somebody else to believe my story, it's now just a second hand story. But as I often do, I would like to suggest people keep an open mind about such things, 'cause you never know....
*********
Oh, and later that night Rinpoche gave a talk on the Precious Human Rebirth and gave Refuge. He made no mention of the walk on the pier or the bird. About 50 people had been with Rinpoche that afternoon, and they were all present that night. So if he had wanted to make an issue out of it he would have had plenty of eye witnesses to support his story. But that isn't how he was.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
KC:
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Re: Thrangu R. on prayer and deities, etc.

Post by KC: »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:34 pmSo there is definitely the idea in this form of Buddhism that you are on your own and there's no point in praying to anybody or anything.
I've always liked to think that refuge covered this pretty well, especially (the major point?) that there is no external agency that can intervene in our lives. It is, indeed, up to us!

--KC:

p.s. I enjoyed the good fortune of Khenchen Thrangu, Rinpoche as preceptor for my bodhisattva vows.
Last edited by KC: on Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thrangu R. on prayer and deities, etc.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

1. We are, each of us, on our own. But this doesn’t actually contradict the premise of supplicating deities. And the reason is, although I am on my own, the “I” being experienced is a complete fabrication to begin with. But the “I” being experienced describes the ignorant mind battling its way through the samsara it constant creates. The deity being supplicated describes the mind’s true nature, which is awakened (bodhi).

Supplication (and in the case of Vajrayana, sadhana practices and visualizations) is action of body, speech, and mind, and is sort of like choosing to dress up in a really nice suit as opposed to just throwing on some dirty blue jeans and a tee shirt.
In this analogy, you opt to put on one set of clothes rather than the other, and you are transformed a little bit (for many people, how they dress has a psychological impact).
You are choosing to put on your bodhi mind rather than your samsaric mind. You wear your generosity and patience suit, your compassion suit, rather than your greed and anger suit. You do this enough on a regular basis, and it really does transform who you are. It benefits you in this lifetime and in future lifetimes. That’s “blessings”.

2. Kalu Rinpoche (the current one) on his weekly Facebook live streaming Q&A sessions, tends to use the term, ‘developing qualities’ rather than ‘receiving blessings’ (blessings as used in the context Malcolm described, above). I think it’s a good choice. “Receiving blessings” suggests a ‘blesser’ and a ‘blessee’ you might say. Then you get into the whole complicated issue of duality, and whether there are celestial beings listening to you and isn’t that like god, and so on. There’s really no need for any of that. It doesn’t really apply. But the words we use carry a lot of baggage.

3. In practice, Theravada Buddhism today emphasizes the idea of merit (“boon” in Thai) constantly. But it is acquired through supporting monks, rather than by praying to deities.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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