17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

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Pårl
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17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Pårl »

Good afternoon everyone,

I just got back from a very englightening and joyful weekend retreat with out Lama.

Both our Lamas are of Kagyu lineage. Our two Lamas trained at the Sonada monastery in the Sikkim province.

I notice many images of the current karmapa. And here is where my question stems from: which kagyu sub-schools have accepted which karmapa as their chosen incarnation to continue the kagyu lineage? 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje or Trinley Thaye Dorje ?

Does it matter?

Before I enter what might be a sensitive topic why my teachers and sangha, I thought I would poll opinion hre first.

Thanks for your thoughts on this! I'm still very new to all this and take neutral stance. So I really don't mind if people have strong views they wish to post here: it's all learning for me.
Knotty Veneer
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Knotty Veneer »

Who is Karmapa is irrelevant largely to any Kagyu school other than the Karma Kagyu.
This is not the wrong life.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Sadly it split the Karma Kagyu Sangha.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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justsit
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by justsit »

Paul2020 wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:34 pm
I notice many images of the current karmapa. And here is where my question stems from: which kagyu sub-schools have accepted which karmapa as their chosen incarnation to continue the kagyu lineage? 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje or Trinley Thaye Dorje ?

Does it matter?
According to the Karmapas themselves, it doesn't matter. They encourage working together.
https://www.lionsroar.com/two-claimants ... y-lineage/

On the ground, there will always be adherents who claim one or the other as "authentic," as there is an extensive political history involved.

While the Karma Kagyu sanghas I've encountered personally follow OTD, I've never encountered any animosity towards TTD.
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Pårl
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Pårl »

Many thanks for the link justsit . I just read the article. It seems to me to be good news. I'm not sure what Kagyu sub-school my template is affiliated with, but I will ask the next time I'm there. But with the rapprochement between the two Karmapas, as people have noted, it may no longer be a particularly contentious issue.

Thanks - as usual - for everyone's responses. :)
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

My opinion is that OTD is the 17th Karmapa. But I have no clairvoyant powers to say that with authority.

TTD must be an exceptional lama for Shamar R to have had that much confidence in him. I wish him well.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Malcolm »

Paul2020 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:20 am Many thanks for the link justsit . I just read the article. It seems to me to be good news. I'm not sure what Kagyu sub-school my template is affiliated with, but I will ask the next time I'm there. But with the rapprochement between the two Karmapas, as people have noted, it may no longer be a particularly contentious issue.

Thanks - as usual - for everyone's responses. :)
Nope, but now there are other storm clouds on the horizon for OTD.
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Pårl
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Pårl »

Malcolm, what are the storm clouds brewing?
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Ayu
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Ayu »

Paul2020 wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:18 pm Malcolm, what are the storm clouds brewing?
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 90#p582690

The topic is locked, because the evidence is not really clear now. But the Karmapa (OTD) seems to have admitted, he is possibly the father of that child.
Malcolm
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Malcolm »

Ayu wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:27 pm
Paul2020 wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:18 pm Malcolm, what are the storm clouds brewing?
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 90#p582690

The topic is locked, because the evidence is not really clear now. But the Karmapa (OTD) seems to have admitted, he is possibly the father of that child.
There is also a rape lawsuit (civil) being brought against him in New York.
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Ayu »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:32 pm
Ayu wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:27 pm
Paul2020 wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:18 pm Malcolm, what are the storm clouds brewing?
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 90#p582690

The topic is locked, because the evidence is not really clear now. But the Karmapa (OTD) seems to have admitted, he is possibly the father of that child.
There is also a rape lawsuit (civil) being brought against him in New York.
I asked around, but I couldn't find any proper evidence for this yet. I only heard of the lawsuit suing him to pay money for the child.
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Norwegian »

Ayu wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:32 pm
Ayu wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:27 pm

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 90#p582690

The topic is locked, because the evidence is not really clear now. But the Karmapa (OTD) seems to have admitted, he is possibly the father of that child.
There is also a rape lawsuit (civil) being brought against him in New York.
I asked around, but I couldn't find any proper evidence for this yet. I only heard of the lawsuit suing him to pay money for the child.
McAllister Olivarius is representing Vikki Han in her accusations of rape against the 17th Karmapa in New York. We are aware of similar allegations of sexual assault which have been published online involving the 17th Karmapa and other Lamas. We expect there may be others who feel unable to come forward because of the conflict with their faith.
https://mcolaw.com/case-studies/karmapa/
First hit on Google on "Karmapa rape New York" without the quotation marks.
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Pårl
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Pårl »

That's not good. A bit crushing for a relative newbie like me. But if these allegations are true, it would seem that even as a lay person you would have to stand accountable for the actions you have chosen to take. I won't comment further on these particular accusations since I have no prior information and am completely ill-equipped to have a viewpoint.

I suppose from my viewpoint, I will just look past it and concentrate on my own path.

I hope some good comes of it one way or another.
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

I only heard of the lawsuit suing him to pay money for the child.
My understanding is that she claims to be his wife, and she is suing him for alimony. That’s technically different than child support.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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justsit
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by justsit »

Have the child's DNA test results been publicly reported?
Malcolm
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Malcolm »

justsit wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:18 pm Have the child's DNA test results been publicly reported?
I am not sure how far in discovery the Canadian lawsuit has proceeded.

Nor, for that matter, the rape suit in NY.
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote:My understanding is that she claims to be his wife, and she is suing him for alimony. That’s technically different than child support.
Yes.
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Malcolm »

Paul2020 wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:47 pm I won't comment further on these particular accusations since I have no prior information and am completely ill-equipped to have a viewpoint.
Right, until the matter is adjudicated in court, there is no point in having an opinion.
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Nemo »

The good news is with the money I saved I put down some new interlock in my yard and got a new shed.
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by Arnoud »

Nemo wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:32 pm The good news is with the money I saved I put down some new interlock in my yard and got a new shed.
You are a character. I like it.
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Re: 17th Gyalwang Karmapas: Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje

Post by AlexanderS »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:32 pm
Ayu wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:27 pm
Paul2020 wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:18 pm Malcolm, what are the storm clouds brewing?
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 90#p582690

The topic is locked, because the evidence is not really clear now. But the Karmapa (OTD) seems to have admitted, he is possibly the father of that child.
There is also a rape lawsuit (civil) being brought against him in New York.
Is that another woman other than the one from the canadian case?
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