Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:32 pm
Most of these Vajrayana paths require group practice for accomplishment, which is what you find at a 3 Year Retreat.
This is strictly a Kagyu and Nyingma thing, and a late development as well. Sakyapas and Gelukpas do these solo, after having received the complete transmission for everything needed to accomplish the retreat. Of course they have consulting teachers who guide them through the material.
The Guhyagarbha is not a late development.
I was referring to the style of three year retreat as composed by Kongtruk in his manual. The institutional
Three year retreat is modern. Originally the idea of a three year retreat comes from kakacakra, which was the elite systen practiced by kagyus, sakyapas (and Jonang) and Gelukpas during the 13th and 14th century.
Kelwin wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:25 am
Not only that, if you want to reach realization, the 3 year retreat is actually a terrible way to do it. Anytime you feel like you're getting to know a practice, you already have to learn the next one and complete all the related accumulations.
Unless, like myself, you focus on one sadhana.
Excellent! Those I have spoken to would have loved the freedom to do so.
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:37 pm
[
I was referring to the style of three year retreat as composed by Kongtruk in his manual. The institutional
Three year retreat is modern. Originally the idea of a three year retreat comes from kakacakra, which was the elite systen practiced by kagyus, sakyapas (and Jonang) and Gelukpas during the 13th and 14th century.
Malcolm would you happen to know what cycle in the Kalacakra the thee year, three month, three day time period is derived from?
Does it have to do with the aspects of body, speech, mind, and the fortress?
Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:37 pm
[
I was referring to the style of three year retreat as composed by Kongtruk in his manual. The institutional
Three year retreat is modern. Originally the idea of a three year retreat comes from kakacakra, which was the elite systen practiced by kagyus, sakyapas (and Jonang) and Gelukpas during the 13th and 14th century.
Malcolm would you happen to know what cycle in the Kalacakra the thee year, three month, three day time period is derived from?
Does it have to do with the aspects of body, speech, mind, and the fortress?
Virgo
It has to do with the length of a mahājñānavāyu. Every thirty-second breath is a jñānavāyu, It is asserted somewhere in the text that one can achieve buddhahood inside of one great jñānavāyu. It has to with the number of jñānavāyu in a single day, multiplied by a specific number of days to reach this cycle of a mahājñānavāyu. I am sorry, but I don't recall the precise formula.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:27 pm
It has to do with the length of a mahājñānavāyu.
Ah, thanks.
Virgo
This is also one of the reasons why in khumbhaka, one wants to be able retain the hold for at least 2.6 minutes ( if there are 21600 respiratory cycles in a 24 hour period, we breath once every five seconds). If one times it all correctly, with time of day, which nostril, etc. it is possible to breath only jñānavāyus. But don't try this without parental supervision.
Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:27 pm
It has to do with the length of a mahājñānavāyu.
Ah, thanks.
Virgo
This is also one of the reasons why in khumbhaka, one wants to be able retain the hold for at least 2.6 minutes ( if there are 21600 respiratory cycles in a 24 hour period, we breath once every five seconds). If one times it all correctly, with time of day, which nostril, etc. it is possible to breath only jñānavāyus. But don't try this without parental supervision.
That's amazing. But I'll never attempt. I can't get anywhere even near that.
Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:33 pm
This is also one of the reasons why in khumbhaka, one wants to be able retain the hold for at least 2.6 minutes ( if there are 21600 respiratory cycles in a 24 hour period, we breath once every five seconds). If one times it all correctly, with time of day, which nostril, etc. it is possible to breath only jñānavāyus. But don't try this without parental supervision.
When you were studying with Ramaswami did he say anything about the length of time of Kumbhaka?
Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:33 pm
This is also one of the reasons why in khumbhaka, one wants to be able retain the hold for at least 2.6 minutes ( if there are 21600 respiratory cycles in a 24 hour period, we breath once every five seconds). If one times it all correctly, with time of day, which nostril, etc. it is possible to breath only jñānavāyus. But don't try this without parental supervision.
When you were studying with Ramaswami did he say anything about the length of time of Kumbhaka?
Overall, no. But in his system, he emphasized antarakhumbhaka, holding out, while mentally reciting the gayatri mantra.
Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:33 pm
This is also one of the reasons why in khumbhaka, one wants to be able retain the hold for at least 2.6 minutes ( if there are 21600 respiratory cycles in a 24 hour period, we breath once every five seconds). If one times it all correctly, with time of day, which nostril, etc. it is possible to breath only jñānavāyus. But don't try this without parental supervision.
When you were studying with Ramaswami did he say anything about the length of time of Kumbhaka?
Overall, no. But in his system, he emphasized antarakhumbhaka, holding out, while mentally reciting the gayatri mantra.
It is a question of logistics, teachings, empowerments and pith instructions should be delivered at the right moment. Solitary retreat is for those that already have experience and no need for a teachings and so on. Also a solitary retreat can be any length so no need for the three year format. Read Jamgon Kongtrul's Retreat Manual.
/magnus
I agree with all of this, too. 3 year retreat is sorta like "college" in our lineage. It's a training ground and requires supervision at various points.
also, some of the practices require more than one person, really--I can't imagine someone doing some of the drupchos on their own. You just can't cover all the necessities.
It all depends on the kind of three year retreat.
Yes, my comments were directed toward the sort of thing you find in Kagyu associated retreats. Kongtrul really "created" this idea of a wide-ranging program, though there are antecedents (Karma Chagme, etc.). His concern was partly with maintaining lineages, and training Lamas to be able to transmit a variety of instructions, including those in danger of disappearing.
It is also possible to get the wang, tri and lung for one's own practice and to engage in retreat to accomplish that practice, and this sort of solitary focused retreat has always been a part of all the Tibetan lineages.
Even in Kagyu circles, there are some differences in emphasis, of course. For instance, in Yidam practices, the TsurLuk way is to practice the Inner practices on one's own, with sessions for Self, Front, Vase generation as well as DakZhuk and tsok on one's own, or in an extended group practice over months. In the "Kham" style one's individual practice focuses on self generation with a group Drupcho lasting 7-10 days where the front, vase, etc. are accomplished only after an extended period of solitary self-generation sessions.
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
It all depends on the kind of three year retreat.
[/quote]
Yes, my comments were directed toward the sort of thing you find in Kagyu associated retreats. Kongtrul really "created" this idea of a wide-ranging program, though there are antecedents (Karma Chagme, etc.). His concern was partly with maintaining lineages, and training Lamas to be able to transmit a variety of instructions, including those in danger of disappearing.
It is also possible to get the wang, tri and lung for one's own practice and to engage in retreat to accomplish that practice, and this sort of solitary focused retreat has always been a part of all the Tibetan lineages.
Even in Kagyu circles, there are some differences in emphasis, of course. For instance, in Yidam practices, the TsurLuk way is to practice the Inner practices on one's own, with sessions for Self, Front, Vase generation as well as DakZhuk and tsok on one's own, or in an extended group practice over months. In the "Kham" style one's individual practice focuses on self generation with a group Drupcho lasting 7-10 days where the front, vase, etc. are accomplished only after an extended period of solitary self-generation sessions.
[/quote]
First, I must mention I didn't do the three year retreat (Shangpa or Karma-kagyü) for various reasons (including the situation in the available centers), but I asked Bokar Rinpoché about the feasability. Answer: pretty difficult (reminding that Rinpoché was both the head retreat-master in Rumtek and the Shangpa lineage holder).
As far as I know, a few westerners dit in the 80's in India and Nepal, but, as you rightly explained, you'll have to be not far from a competent retreat master (drubpön) - usually not your root teacher. And you will need a longer time of preparation (Bokar Rinpoché hinted at no less than five times the ngöndro), shorter retreats before (guru-yoga), intensive studies as recommanded by your teacher, memorizing (yes) the sadhanas and related tormas etc ..., so more preparation than in a group retreat, plus getting a serious grasp on practices' commentaries and on the rgyab chos (the general teachings supporting the practices, be they of sutras or tantras) - this is of course a considerable amount of time not only for oneself, but also for your teachers, who are generally pretty busy and possibly have no time for that.
As one of my teachers (a highly qualified retreat master) told me for shorter practices: read the text and commentary carefully, see where you can have a problem, ask questions if needed and any clarification and then, practice non-stop. You cannot stop to go out to ask questions ...
Next obstacles can and will arise (and serious ones), how do you deal with them by yourself?
To quote again Bokar Rinpoche, a standard cursus for a Tibetan or, say, Himalayan, with already all the necessary monastic training was: one three years karma-kagyü retreat, one three years shangpa-kagyü retreat and a one year jordrug retreat ... well ... I must mention that few Tibetans practice alone, and generaly after many years of collective retreats (like Yonggé Mingyur Rinpoché did after being retreat master in Sherab Ling).
As you also rightly mentioned, even if envisioned, the program of such a retreat would be quite different and more simple in content (a good part of the rituals will be simplified, or even eliminated). Such a program will not depend on you, but on your master, on the quality of your practice up to now , on your degree of abandonment of the eight worldly dharmas ... At the end of his too short life Bokar Rinpoché (and now Khenchen Rinpoché) insisted more on a long-term regular and structured practice (under supervision of course). If I were young, karma-kagyüpa or interested in the shangpa tradition, had a strong connection with a competent teacher I would study some Tibetan, practice ngöndro and basic teachings and do my best to go to India and Nepal ("choc des civilisations" is necessary) - say Sherab Ling or Benchen - and see ... there are also certainly plenty of opportunities in other traditions. Go East young man!
But this is seen from France, perhaps more opportunities in the US
Last, in the various dagpo-kagyü or nyengyü traditions the "program" can be fractioned in about four/five sections
Tenga Rinpoché gave quite advanced teachings to people who practiced them step by step (doing the requisite amount of each practice, nyendrub) in solitary retreat, and certainly some other teachers do nowadays - again quality of the teacher and of your commitment - but no lama title at the end.
I think some people received (long ago) some advanced teachings from the previous Pawo Rinpoché in the context of what I would call "half retreat" situations.
This is not to discourage Kandarohi, far from that - but this is good to have a better idea of the context. Ill' end this long post by agreing with Malcolm on "relying on teachers and not lineages", in the sense that if we go for this or that, what is the schedule etc. , it may end in dharma shopping and consumerism of sorts, or exotism - one's root lama's advice is supreme. Specially for such endeavours, since it's a heavy commitment.
All the best to Kandarohi, wishes for sponsors on the way (you'll need them), end of all obstacles. I if "going East" for long years seems impractical, and if there is possibility not so far for a "'classic" 3 years retreat, take it, this is almost he only way to receive some teachings unavailable otherwise.
