Refuge name conundrum

suerafatodd
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Refuge name conundrum

Post by suerafatodd »

Hello all - hope you're well. I'm writing with a question regarding a refuge name I received.

I was previously a member of the Shambhala community, which (as I'm sure many know) has been up-ended by the revelation of an abuse scandal (both recent and historical). I took refuge with a representative of the so-called "Sakyong" before all of this was revealed - I was given a refuge name. I consider refuge names to be tools for self-reflection. Somehow, after everything that has happened, I feel as though that name (that tool)) isn't even valid since it was conferred by someone who I do not consider to be a legitimate teacher. I am writing to get opinions on how to relate to this name given the circumstances. Is it a legitimate tool for me, or something to disregard?

This is purely a psychological issue for me and may seem trivial, but that name feels like some sort of tether tying me to the "Sakyong," that community and the whole situation. The reality of the situation is that I want nothing to do with it and do not want to be tethered to it psychologically or otherwise. That is why it is eating me up. I'd appreciate any advice anyone may have.
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heart
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by heart »

suerafatodd wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:22 am Hello all - hope you're well. I'm writing with a question regarding a refuge name I received.

I was previously a member of the Shambhala community, which (as I'm sure many know) has been up-ended by the revelation of an abuse scandal (both recent and historical). I took refuge with a representative of the so-called "Sakyong" before all of this was revealed - I was given a refuge name. I consider refuge names to be tools for self-reflection. Somehow, after everything that has happened, I feel as though that name (that tool)) isn't even valid since it was conferred by someone who I do not consider to be a legitimate teacher. I am writing to get opinions on how to relate to this name given the circumstances. Is it a legitimate tool for me, or something to disregard?

This is purely a psychological issue for me and may seem trivial, but that name feels like some sort of tether tying me to the "Sakyong," that community and the whole situation. The reality of the situation is that I want nothing to do with it and do not want to be tethered to it psychologically or otherwise. That is why it is eating me up. I'd appreciate any advice anyone may have.
Take refuge again with a teacher you have full confidence in. In general refuge to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha have nothing to do with various Tibetan lineages so the person you take refuge with should feel like a solid representation of the three jewels.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Aemilius
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by Aemilius »

heart wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:47 am
suerafatodd wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:22 am Hello all - hope you're well. I'm writing with a question regarding a refuge name I received.

I was previously a member of the Shambhala community, which (as I'm sure many know) has been up-ended by the revelation of an abuse scandal (both recent and historical). I took refuge with a representative of the so-called "Sakyong" before all of this was revealed - I was given a refuge name. I consider refuge names to be tools for self-reflection. Somehow, after everything that has happened, I feel as though that name (that tool)) isn't even valid since it was conferred by someone who I do not consider to be a legitimate teacher. I am writing to get opinions on how to relate to this name given the circumstances. Is it a legitimate tool for me, or something to disregard?

This is purely a psychological issue for me and may seem trivial, but that name feels like some sort of tether tying me to the "Sakyong," that community and the whole situation. The reality of the situation is that I want nothing to do with it and do not want to be tethered to it psychologically or otherwise. That is why it is eating me up. I'd appreciate any advice anyone may have.
Take refuge again with a teacher you have full confidence in. In general refuge to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha have nothing to do with various Tibetan lineages so the person you take refuge with should feel like a solid representation of the three jewels.

/magnus
Oh really?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Malcolm
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:01 pm
heart wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:47 am
suerafatodd wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:22 am Hello all - hope you're well. I'm writing with a question regarding a refuge name I received.

I was previously a member of the Shambhala community, which (as I'm sure many know) has been up-ended by the revelation of an abuse scandal (both recent and historical). I took refuge with a representative of the so-called "Sakyong" before all of this was revealed - I was given a refuge name. I consider refuge names to be tools for self-reflection. Somehow, after everything that has happened, I feel as though that name (that tool)) isn't even valid since it was conferred by someone who I do not consider to be a legitimate teacher. I am writing to get opinions on how to relate to this name given the circumstances. Is it a legitimate tool for me, or something to disregard?

This is purely a psychological issue for me and may seem trivial, but that name feels like some sort of tether tying me to the "Sakyong," that community and the whole situation. The reality of the situation is that I want nothing to do with it and do not want to be tethered to it psychologically or otherwise. That is why it is eating me up. I'd appreciate any advice anyone may have.
Take refuge again with a teacher you have full confidence in. In general refuge to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha have nothing to do with various Tibetan lineages so the person you take refuge with should feel like a solid representation of the three jewels.

/magnus
Oh really?
Yes, really.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Once you have taken refuge, you’re in. You’re a Buddhist, unless or until you would renounce it for some reason. That doesn’t change.

But you can take refuge again from another teacher and get another refuge name. Monastics changing names is not uncommon.
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pemachophel
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by pemachophel »

Definitely you can take refuge more than once. Formally taking refuge again from time to time with a Teacher you admire and have faith in renews your vows. As said above, one can have more than one refuge name (as well as numerous other names from empowerments, etc.).

Reading Dzongsar Khyentse's new book, Poison Is Medicine, might help you continue processing your past experiences with Shambhala. Just a thought.

Good luck & best wishes.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by heart »

Aemilius wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:01 pm
heart wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:47 am
suerafatodd wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:22 am Hello all - hope you're well. I'm writing with a question regarding a refuge name I received.

I was previously a member of the Shambhala community, which (as I'm sure many know) has been up-ended by the revelation of an abuse scandal (both recent and historical). I took refuge with a representative of the so-called "Sakyong" before all of this was revealed - I was given a refuge name. I consider refuge names to be tools for self-reflection. Somehow, after everything that has happened, I feel as though that name (that tool)) isn't even valid since it was conferred by someone who I do not consider to be a legitimate teacher. I am writing to get opinions on how to relate to this name given the circumstances. Is it a legitimate tool for me, or something to disregard?

This is purely a psychological issue for me and may seem trivial, but that name feels like some sort of tether tying me to the "Sakyong," that community and the whole situation. The reality of the situation is that I want nothing to do with it and do not want to be tethered to it psychologically or otherwise. That is why it is eating me up. I'd appreciate any advice anyone may have.
Take refuge again with a teacher you have full confidence in. In general refuge to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha have nothing to do with various Tibetan lineages so the person you take refuge with should feel like a solid representation of the three jewels.

/magnus

Oh really?
It certainly should have nothing to do with lineage. You take refuge to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha only, nothing else. Refuge is a Buddhist thing not a Tibetan thing.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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KathyLauren
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by KathyLauren »

heart wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:41 pm You take refuge to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha only, nothing else.
Many people in Tibetan traditions take refuge in Guru, Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. In the OP's case, they no longer feel that that person was a true guru, therefore any refuge they may have taken in that person is null and void. What remains is the traditional Triple Refuge of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.

As for a refuge name, it is just a name. It can be freely discarded and replaced. You might as well use it as a practice of non-attachment.

Om mani padme hum
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by heart »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:50 pm
heart wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:41 pm You take refuge to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha only, nothing else.
Many people in Tibetan traditions take refuge in Guru, Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. In the OP's case, they no longer feel that that person was a true guru, therefore any refuge they may have taken in that person is null and void. What remains is the traditional Triple Refuge of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.

As for a refuge name, it is just a name. It can be freely discarded and replaced. You might as well use it as a practice of non-attachment.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Yes there are many refuge prayers like that but here we are talking about what the refuge ceremony is. You can't have a Guru if you didn't get an empowerment and the refuge ceremony is not an empowerment.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by Malcolm »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:50 pm
Many people in Tibetan traditions take refuge in Guru, Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.
Only if they have actually received empowerment.
suerafatodd
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by suerafatodd »

Thank you everyone! I really appreciate everybody's input, advice, and book and practice recommendations. This has really helped me a lot. Looking forward to reading Poison is Medicine to try to keep working through this internally (I found it online to read already). All my gratitude and much love.
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by Aemilius »

heart wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:41 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:01 pm
heart wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:47 am

Take refuge again with a teacher you have full confidence in. In general refuge to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha have nothing to do with various Tibetan lineages so the person you take refuge with should feel like a solid representation of the three jewels.

/magnus

Oh really?
It certainly should have nothing to do with lineage. You take refuge to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha only, nothing else. Refuge is a Buddhist thing not a Tibetan thing.

/magnus
Why do they keep Buddha images and copies of sutras, vinaya, abhidharma and commentaries, and bow to them?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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heart
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by heart »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:27 am
heart wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:41 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:01 pm


Oh really?
It certainly should have nothing to do with lineage. You take refuge to the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha only, nothing else. Refuge is a Buddhist thing not a Tibetan thing.

/magnus
Why do they keep Buddha images and copies of sutras, vinaya, abhidharma and commentaries, and bow to them?
Who? In general sutras, vinaya, abhidharma and commentaries are the Dharma so they are objects of refuge.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Refuge in lineage is part of refuge in the sangha.
In Vajrayana Buddhism one also takes refuge in lamas and dharma protectors, not because they are some kind of additional objects of refuge, but because they are manifestations or aspects of the same three jewels, Buddha, Dharma, Sangha.
One could of course argue then that this is redundant. In one sense, that’s true. In another sense, it serves as practical application to one’s practice.
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by heart »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:30 pm Refuge in lineage is part of refuge in the sangha.
In Vajrayana Buddhism one also takes refuge in lamas and dharma protectors, not because they are some kind of additional objects of refuge, but because they are manifestations or aspects of the same three jewels, Buddha, Dharma, Sangha.
One could of course argue then that this is redundant. In one sense, that’s true. In another sense, it serves as practical application to one’s practice.
This seems to be a deeply rooted belief for some reason. So do you also think that taking refuge with Tibetan Lama you have to become a Vajrayana practitioner? Would you break the refuge if you practiced Zen or Pure Land Buddhism?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

heart wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:37 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:30 pm Refuge in lineage is part of refuge in the sangha.
In Vajrayana Buddhism one also takes refuge in lamas and dharma protectors, not because they are some kind of additional objects of refuge, but because they are manifestations or aspects of the same three jewels, Buddha, Dharma, Sangha.
One could of course argue then that this is redundant. In one sense, that’s true. In another sense, it serves as practical application to one’s practice.
This seems to be a deeply rooted belief for some reason. So do you also think that taking refuge with Tibetan Lama you have to become a Vajrayana practitioner? Would you break the refuge if you practiced Zen or Pure Land Buddhism?

/magnus
I think “become a Vajrayana practitioner” can be interpreted a lot of ways. It is certainly different today in the west than in was in Tibet even 75 years ago even though the elements are still there.

These days, there are what I would refer to as a lot of ‘casual Vajrayana practitioners’ which is not a bad thing. I don’t mean it disparagingly. They went to a Dharma center and took refuge with a lama, and maybe they ask the lama lots of questions, they have a modest shrine thing or meditation area at home, but let’s just say, doing prostrations and visualizations isn’t why they get up in the morning. For these folks I think it is not at all unusual that they might also study a little zen, or read Pali texts online or whatever.

(In Tibet, Bhutan, Ladakh, Sikkim, etc there are also ‘casual Vajrayana’ people. But there, every buddhist is ‘Vajrayana’ anyway. What I mean is, how many actually meditate, do visualizations, follow a guru assiduously, or do anything beyond burning incense in the morning is another issue. There, if you want to focus on it full time, you’d become a monk or nun).

For others, and I think especially for those in the Nyingma tradition, it is much more focused on the teacher, the lama, very devotional, which always reminds me of Kung Fu Panda (Po) and Master Shifu.

It’s really too bad in a way, I think, that so many western students of Vajrayana don’t widen their scope a bit. Many western lamas, for example, are not aware of the Sutra origins of “OM MANI PADME HUM”. They just learned it from the Chenrezig Sadhana and figure it was just always around.

So, no, I don’t think that, generally speaking, students whose entryway into the Dharma was Vajrayana have to shut out zen, pure land, lotus school or even Theravada teachings.

However, for those who are on a much more, let’s say, “deep samaya” level with a guru (lama), that lama will instruct them accordingly. As one lama put it, “watercolors and oil paints are equally fine. But if you try mixing them together, you just end up with a mess”. So, there is a point, you might say a turning point for Vajrayana students where they decide that they really need to just focus on the tantras, maybe do a long retreat, lots of repetitive preliminary practices, and so on.
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by heart »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:32 pm
heart wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:37 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:30 pm Refuge in lineage is part of refuge in the sangha.
In Vajrayana Buddhism one also takes refuge in lamas and dharma protectors, not because they are some kind of additional objects of refuge, but because they are manifestations or aspects of the same three jewels, Buddha, Dharma, Sangha.
One could of course argue then that this is redundant. In one sense, that’s true. In another sense, it serves as practical application to one’s practice.
This seems to be a deeply rooted belief for some reason. So do you also think that taking refuge with Tibetan Lama you have to become a Vajrayana practitioner? Would you break the refuge if you practiced Zen or Pure Land Buddhism?

/magnus
I think “become a Vajrayana practitioner” can be interpreted a lot of ways. It is certainly different today in the west than in was in Tibet even 75 years ago even though the elements are still there.

These days, there are what I would refer to as a lot of ‘casual Vajrayana practitioners’ which is not a bad thing. I don’t mean it disparagingly. They went to a Dharma center and took refuge with a lama, and maybe they ask the lama lots of questions, they have a modest shrine thing or meditation area at home, but let’s just say, doing prostrations and visualizations isn’t why they get up in the morning. For these folks I think it is not at all unusual that they might also study a little zen, or read Pali texts online or whatever.

(In Tibet, Bhutan, Ladakh, Sikkim, etc there are also ‘casual Vajrayana’ people. But there, every buddhist is ‘Vajrayana’ anyway. What I mean is, how many actually meditate, do visualizations, follow a guru assiduously, or do anything beyond burning incense in the morning is another issue. There, if you want to focus on it full time, you’d become a monk or nun).

For others, and I think especially for those in the Nyingma tradition, it is much more focused on the teacher, the lama, very devotional, which always reminds me of Kung Fu Panda (Po) and Master Shifu.

It’s really too bad in a way, I think, that so many western students of Vajrayana don’t widen their scope a bit. Many western lamas, for example, are not aware of the Sutra origins of “OM MANI PADME HUM”. They just learned it from the Chenrezig Sadhana and figure it was just always around.

So, no, I don’t think that, generally speaking, students whose entryway into the Dharma was Vajrayana have to shut out zen, pure land, lotus school or even Theravada teachings.

However, for those who are on a much more, let’s say, “deep samaya” level with a guru (lama), that lama will instruct them accordingly. As one lama put it, “watercolors and oil paints are equally fine. But if you try mixing them together, you just end up with a mess”. So, there is a point, you might say a turning point for Vajrayana students where they decide that they really need to just focus on the tantras, maybe do a long retreat, lots of repetitive preliminary practices, and so on.
Why don't you just answer the question?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

heart wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:48 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:32 pm
heart wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:37 pm

This seems to be a deeply rooted belief for some reason. So do you also think that taking refuge with Tibetan Lama you have to become a Vajrayana practitioner? Would you break the refuge if you practiced Zen or Pure Land Buddhism?

/magnus
I think “become a Vajrayana practitioner” can be interpreted a lot of ways. It is certainly different today in the west than in was in Tibet even 75 years ago even though the elements are still there.

These days, there are what I would refer to as a lot of ‘casual Vajrayana practitioners’ which is not a bad thing. I don’t mean it disparagingly. They went to a Dharma center and took refuge with a lama, and maybe they ask the lama lots of questions, they have a modest shrine thing or meditation area at home, but let’s just say, doing prostrations and visualizations isn’t why they get up in the morning. For these folks I think it is not at all unusual that they might also study a little zen, or read Pali texts online or whatever.

(In Tibet, Bhutan, Ladakh, Sikkim, etc there are also ‘casual Vajrayana’ people. But there, every buddhist is ‘Vajrayana’ anyway. What I mean is, how many actually meditate, do visualizations, follow a guru assiduously, or do anything beyond burning incense in the morning is another issue. There, if you want to focus on it full time, you’d become a monk or nun).

For others, and I think especially for those in the Nyingma tradition, it is much more focused on the teacher, the lama, very devotional, which always reminds me of Kung Fu Panda (Po) and Master Shifu.

It’s really too bad in a way, I think, that so many western students of Vajrayana don’t widen their scope a bit. Many western lamas, for example, are not aware of the Sutra origins of “OM MANI PADME HUM”. They just learned it from the Chenrezig Sadhana and figure it was just always around.

So, no, I don’t think that, generally speaking, students whose entryway into the Dharma was Vajrayana have to shut out zen, pure land, lotus school or even Theravada teachings.

However, for those who are on a much more, let’s say, “deep samaya” level with a guru (lama), that lama will instruct them accordingly. As one lama put it, “watercolors and oil paints are equally fine. But if you try mixing them together, you just end up with a mess”. So, there is a point, you might say a turning point for Vajrayana students where they decide that they really need to just focus on the tantras, maybe do a long retreat, lots of repetitive preliminary practices, and so on.
Why don't you just answer the question?

/magnus
The question is:
“So do you also think that taking refuge with Tibetan Lama you have to become a Vajrayana practitioner? Would you break the refuge if you practiced Zen or Pure Land Buddhism?”
…and I answered it. Sometimes yes, and sometimes no.
There’s no “breaking refuge”.
EMPTIFUL.
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heart
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by heart »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:55 pm
heart wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:48 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:32 pm

I think “become a Vajrayana practitioner” can be interpreted a lot of ways. It is certainly different today in the west than in was in Tibet even 75 years ago even though the elements are still there.

These days, there are what I would refer to as a lot of ‘casual Vajrayana practitioners’ which is not a bad thing. I don’t mean it disparagingly. They went to a Dharma center and took refuge with a lama, and maybe they ask the lama lots of questions, they have a modest shrine thing or meditation area at home, but let’s just say, doing prostrations and visualizations isn’t why they get up in the morning. For these folks I think it is not at all unusual that they might also study a little zen, or read Pali texts online or whatever.

(In Tibet, Bhutan, Ladakh, Sikkim, etc there are also ‘casual Vajrayana’ people. But there, every buddhist is ‘Vajrayana’ anyway. What I mean is, how many actually meditate, do visualizations, follow a guru assiduously, or do anything beyond burning incense in the morning is another issue. There, if you want to focus on it full time, you’d become a monk or nun).

For others, and I think especially for those in the Nyingma tradition, it is much more focused on the teacher, the lama, very devotional, which always reminds me of Kung Fu Panda (Po) and Master Shifu.

It’s really too bad in a way, I think, that so many western students of Vajrayana don’t widen their scope a bit. Many western lamas, for example, are not aware of the Sutra origins of “OM MANI PADME HUM”. They just learned it from the Chenrezig Sadhana and figure it was just always around.

So, no, I don’t think that, generally speaking, students whose entryway into the Dharma was Vajrayana have to shut out zen, pure land, lotus school or even Theravada teachings.

However, for those who are on a much more, let’s say, “deep samaya” level with a guru (lama), that lama will instruct them accordingly. As one lama put it, “watercolors and oil paints are equally fine. But if you try mixing them together, you just end up with a mess”. So, there is a point, you might say a turning point for Vajrayana students where they decide that they really need to just focus on the tantras, maybe do a long retreat, lots of repetitive preliminary practices, and so on.
Why don't you just answer the question?

/magnus
The question is:
“So do you also think that taking refuge with Tibetan Lama you have to become a Vajrayana practitioner? Would you break the refuge if you practiced Zen or Pure Land Buddhism?”
…and I answered it. Sometimes yes, and sometimes no.
There’s no “breaking refuge”.
So you agree the refuge ceremony have nothing to do with Vajrayana?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Refuge name conundrum

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

heart wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:06 pm So you agree the refuge ceremony have nothing to do with Vajrayana?
Ummm… no. I never suggested that.

That doesn’t even make sense as a question.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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