Kagyu Lineages

[Matt J]

I would be curious as to the profile of the typical Westerner who is able to take three years off to do a retreat.

I think this is accurate. A friend who was preparing for the three year and still hopes to do it, told that there was “one too many freak outs”…

[windoverwater]

I completed a traditional Kagyu closed 3-year group retreat. We went through a number of practices: ngondro, guru yogas, yidam sadhanas, etc. I felt there just was not enough time to really get into each practice, and the large amount of chanting (in Tibetan) was challenging.

Then about 7 years later, in a looser, individual, semi-retreat, I spent close to 4 years focusing on one sadhana, 3 sessions a day, plus a protector practice.

I felt the style of the second retreat was much more conducive to developing depth and stability in my practice.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

My three year retreat consisted of two sadhanas, one performed at the beginning to remove obstacles, and then the remainder of the time was focused on the other, main sadhana.

I like the sound of that. I also like the idea of having a bed.

Is your retreat typical for a Sakya 3 year retreat?

[Malcolm]

My three year retreat consisted of two sadhanas, one performed at the beginning to remove obstacles, and then the remainder of the time was focused on the other, main sadhana.

I like the sound of that. I also like the idea of having a bed.

Is your retreat typical for a Sakya 3 year retreat?

Three year retreat is not really a Sakya thing, though it has become so recently. I have no idea how other Sakya three year retreats are structured,

[Malcolm]

I would be curious as to the profile of the typical Westerner who is able to take three years off to do a retreat.

I think this is accurate. A friend who was preparing for the three year and still hopes to do it, told that there was “one too many freak outs”…

Young, unemployed, no partner.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

I would be curious as to the profile of the typical Westerner who is able to take three years off to do a retreat.

I think this is accurate. A friend who was preparing for the three year and still hopes to do it, told that there was “one too many freak outs”…

Young, unemployed, no partner.

Also old, retired, no partner.

[Matt J]

Probably not necessarily the mentally/emotionally stable group as a whole I would imagine.

Young, unemployed, no partner.

[Matt J]

Yes, that is really confusing!

The word realization, rtogs pa, is used very loosely, to describe all kinds of things. In Tibetan, it runs the gamut from merely understanding something, all the way up to realizing buddhahood. So when we hear that "X is realized", everyone thinks they know what this means, but actually, without some qualification, it is kind of a meaningless statement. Realized what? The path of accumulation, application, seeing? The creation stage? The completion stage? Emptiness? etc.

[tobes]

I completed a traditional Kagyu closed 3-year group retreat. We went through a number of practices: ngondro, guru yogas, yidam sadhanas, etc. I felt there just was not enough time to really get into each practice, and the large amount of chanting (in Tibetan) was challenging.

Then about 7 years later, in a looser, individual, semi-retreat, I spent close to 4 years focusing on one sadhana, 3 sessions a day, plus a protector practice.

I felt the style of the second retreat was much more conducive to developing depth and stability in my practice.

Makes perfect sense to me. I think you have to kind of 'love' the practice, so that the intent and inclination to perform it is very natural(ised). i.e. it's your foremost desire, to do it. Obviously arriving at that place requires a great deal of prior Dharma practice.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

I completed a traditional Kagyu closed 3-year group retreat. We went through a number of practices: ngondro, guru yogas, yidam sadhanas, etc. I felt there just was not enough time to really get into each practice, and the large amount of chanting (in Tibetan) was challenging.

Then about 7 years later, in a looser, individual, semi-retreat, I spent close to 4 years focusing on one sadhana, 3 sessions a day, plus a protector practice.

I felt the style of the second retreat was much more conducive to developing depth and stability in my practice.

[Giovanni]

I would be curious as to the profile of the typical Westerner who is able to take three years off to do a retreat.

I think this is accurate. A friend who was preparing for the three year and still hopes to do it, told that there was “one too many freak outs”…

A recently qualified medic who is/was planning to do the three years before taking up a residency. Unmarried. Independently wealthy as a result of inheritance. So, not typical. But not unique either.

[Giovanni]

Probably not necessarily the mentally/emotionally stable group as a whole I would imagine.

Young, unemployed, no partner.

You are free to imagine what you want…

[Natan]

I completed a traditional Kagyu closed 3-year group retreat. We went through a number of practices: ngondro, guru yogas, yidam sadhanas, etc. I felt there just was not enough time to really get into each practice, and the large amount of chanting (in Tibetan) was challenging.

Then about 7 years later, in a looser, individual, semi-retreat, I spent close to 4 years focusing on one sadhana, 3 sessions a day, plus a protector practice.

I felt the style of the second retreat was much more conducive to developing depth and stability in my practice.

That's very interesting. That is a very helpful report.

[Natan]

Care to expand?

The problem is the notion of realization and what it is.

The word realization, rtogs pa, is used very loosely, to describe all kinds of things. In Tibetan, it runs the gamut from merely understanding something, all the way up to realizing buddhahood. So when we hear that "X is realized", everyone thinks they know what this means, but actually, without some qualification, it is kind of a meaningless statement. Realized what? The path of accumulation, application, seeing? The creation stage? The completion stage? Emptiness? etc.

In the romance languages this word realize just means to understand or to bring into existence. For example, I realized I was wrong. Or I realized a profit, a goal, a diploma. I realized the opening of my storefront, would be something said in a romance language.

It's much like the word prajna in Buddhadharma. It's can refer to any number of understandings. Whether someone realized the three kayas is going to depend on if you got full instructions on what those are, how to do that, being examined by your lama, what the signs are. It's straight forward and objective.

[Giovanni]

I would be curious as to the profile of the typical Westerner who is able to take three years off to do a retreat.

I think this is accurate. A friend who was preparing for the three year and still hopes to do it, told that there was “one too many freak outs”…

A recently qualified medic who is/was planning to do the three years before taking up a residency. Unmarried. Independently wealthy as a result of inheritance. So, not typical. But not unique either.

I should perhaps add that last time I spoke to her she had more or less given up the idea feeling discouraged and was actively looking for a residency in her chosen field.

[Malcolm]

It's much like the word prajna in Buddhadharma. It's can refer to any number of understandings. Whether someone realized the three kayas is going to depend on if you got full instructions on what those are, how to do that, being examined by your lama, what the signs are. It's straight forward and objective.

Sure, signs such as seeing one hundred buddhas, visiting one hundred buddhafields, and so on, which are a sign of attaining the first bhumi, are straight forward and objective.

Or alternately, signs such as the intense pain of pranayama practices and so on, which result when ordinary people practice completion stage practices related the nadis, vayus, and bindus, are also straight forward and objective, as are signs like smoke, fireflies, and so on, which are signs of the vayus entering the central channel. These are all "realizations."

The point is that people like to say "So and so is realized" without knowing anything about the person, other than just passing along rumors they have heard about this teacher and that. I can't tell you the number of ads I have seen for this and that teacher "praising them as highly realized" without specifying what that realization is. Calling teachers "realized" is just advertising puffery.

My guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, used to reject the idea that he was a rtogs ldan, a person possessing realization, and basically said that if any of his students wanted to prove they were realized they should be able to hold their hand in fire without it becoming damaged in anyway. He said he was not able to do this, and as far as I know, none of his students ever tried to pass this test either.

[Natan]

It's much like the word prajna in Buddhadharma. It's can refer to any number of understandings. Whether someone realized the three kayas is going to depend on if you got full instructions on what those are, how to do that, being examined by your lama, what the signs are. It's straight forward and objective.

Sure, signs such as seeing one hundred buddhas, visiting one hundred buddhafields, and so on, which are a sign of attaining the first bhumi, are straight forward and objective.

Or alternately, signs such as the intense pain of pranayama practices and so on, which result when ordinary people practice completion stage practices related the nadis, vayus, and bindus, are also straight forward and objective, as are signs like smoke, fireflies, and so on, which are signs of the vayus entering the central channel. These are all "realizations."

The point is that people like to say "So and so is realized" without knowing anything about the person, other than just passing along rumors they have heard about this teacher and that. I can't tell you the number of ads I have seen for this and that teacher "praising them as highly realized" without specifying what that realization is. Calling teachers "realized" is just advertising puffery.

My guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, used to reject the idea that he was a rtogs ldan, a person possessing realization, and basically said that if any of his students wanted to prove they were realized they should be able to hold their hand in fire without it becoming damaged in anyway. He said he was not able to do this, and as far as I know, none of his students ever tried to pass this test either.

Again, that's the realization of what? I don't think this is a litmus test for say accomplishing the result of a sadhana or yoga practice. That's like realizing illusory elements. Very high for sure. But I catch your meaning. We put way too much importance on some woo woo power of so and so when it's not important at all.

[Natan]

It's much like the word prajna in Buddhadharma. It's can refer to any number of understandings. Whether someone realized the three kayas is going to depend on if you got full instructions on what those are, how to do that, being examined by your lama, what the signs are. It's straight forward and objective.

Sure, signs such as seeing one hundred buddhas, visiting one hundred buddhafields, and so on, which are a sign of attaining the first bhumi, are straight forward and objective.

Or alternately, signs such as the intense pain of pranayama practices and so on, which result when ordinary people practice completion stage practices related the nadis, vayus, and bindus, are also straight forward and objective, as are signs like smoke, fireflies, and so on, which are signs of the vayus entering the central channel. These are all "realizations."

The point is that people like to say "So and so is realized" without knowing anything about the person, other than just passing along rumors they have heard about this teacher and that. I can't tell you the number of ads I have seen for this and that teacher "praising them as highly realized" without specifying what that realization is. Calling teachers "realized" is just advertising puffery.

My guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, used to reject the idea that he was a rtogs ldan, a person possessing realization, and basically said that if any of his students wanted to prove they were realized they should be able to hold their hand in fire without it becoming damaged in anyway. He said he was not able to do this, and as far as I know, none of his students ever tried to pass this test either.

One important sign is one's mantra starts working. The Guhyagarbha is clear in this. ChNN also said if you are in stable contemplation you can win the lottery. Although like Tilopa said don't gauge yourself, we can also avoid fooling ourselves if there's no result from mantra, as in activities. Obviously takes a lot of Practice whether one is into this or that system.

[Malcolm]

But I catch your meaning. We put way too much importance on some woo woo power of so and so when it's not important at all.

Yes, especially since it is not our power. Patrul Rinpoche discusses this in terms of pride, people boasting about their gurus as if their gurus' qualities rubs off on them.

It is as you say, if one understands the signs of the practices, it is pretty easy to know if one has reached this or that level of realization. But we are never supposed to say what that is.

Occasionally, however, some masters like Longchenpa, Tsongkhapa, or Khyentse Wangpo do let slip what realization they have attained in order to inspire disciples.

[Natan]

But I catch your meaning. We put way too much importance on some woo woo power of so and so when it's not important at all.

Yes, especially since it is not our power. Patrul Rinpoche discusses this in terms of pride, people boasting about their gurus as if their gurus' qualities rubs off on them.

It is as you say, if one understands the signs of the practices, it is pretty easy to know if one has reached this or that level of realization. But we are never supposed to say what that is.

Occasionally, however, some masters like Longchenpa, Tsongkhapa, or Khyentse Wangpo do let slip what realization they have attained in order to inspire disciples.

Yep best to stay tight lipped about those.