Kagyu Lineages

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Hazel
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Kagyu Lineages

Post by Hazel »

How much do the different Kagyu lineages differ from each other?
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Giovanni
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by Giovanni »

In forms of practice not so much. Mostly it’s a difference in emphasis.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by SilenceMonkey »

I think this book goes into some detail:
"The Ri-me Philosophy of Jamgon Kongtrul the Great: A Study of the Buddhist Lineages of Tibet" by Ringu Tulku

There's also the feeling aspect of connection and blessings... To me, each of the kagyu lineages has slightly different flavor. For example, Drikung Kagyu feels a bit more soft and peaceful to me.
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yagmort
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by yagmort »

on the surface - not so much.
but could be quite different if looking deeper.
for example, drukpa does not consider Gampopa as main Milarepa disciple, maintain strong Naro ChoDruk practice (drukpa yogis have been endorsed by HHDL for first western research on tummo) and also had ronyom (6 cycles of equal taste) as one of the main practices. drikung is also very strong on Naro ChöDruk with many lineage holders completed years of retreat (like Nubpa Rinpoche) and/or have been trained under the guidance of such great masters as Khyunga Rinpoche and Pachung Rinpoche, who were like early kagyu masters. Zurmang hold aural transmission (nyengyu) of Chakrasamvara from 5th karmapa, etc..
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Hazel wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:20 am How much do the different Kagyu lineages differ from each other?
In practical terms, if there were two or three different Kagyu centers in the same city, and you were trying to decide which one to go to on a regular basis for meditation and teachings, any of them would serve that function.
Sometimes the difference matters more according to what the person is looking for, than it does in terms of practice, which yidam is emphasized, which lamas sit in that lineage, and so on.
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Hazel
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by Hazel »

Thank you all for the feedback! It was very helpful.

For various reasons I am dipping my toe outside of Gelug and getting a sense of the land, particularly in the direction of Drikung Kagyu.

I already know the lineage that I am going to explore, but was curious about how strict people are about following one lineage and one lineage only. But also curious in general about how much they differed, which people kindly responded, thank you.

I'm talking to a lama hopefully this weekend that I hope will answer the more practical questions I had about what practice looks like for someone of my background. That of course I would not trust the internet for.
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tobes
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by tobes »

Hazel wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:50 pm Thank you all for the feedback! It was very helpful.

For various reasons I am dipping my toe outside of Gelug and getting a sense of the land, particularly in the direction of Drikung Kagyu.

I already know the lineage that I am going to explore, but was curious about how strict people are about following one lineage and one lineage only. But also curious in general about how much they differed, which people kindly responded, thank you.

I'm talking to a lama hopefully this weekend that I hope will answer the more practical questions I had about what practice looks like for someone of my background. That of course I would not trust the internet for.
Tsong Khapa himself was very ecumenical, and received/practiced many different Kagyu streams, Drikung especially. He wrote criticisms too, I think particularly of Drukpa Kagyu, but this was probably more about the quality of practice he was encountering at the time.

Following one lineage only carries more dangers than possibilities in my opinion.
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Some people like to practice one cycle some people are more Rime

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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by SilenceMonkey »

I was once told by Lho Ontul Rinpoche that whatever lineage you want to practice in, you should also study in that lineage so you understand the practice. I think it's very possible to practice in different lineages, as long as we have good guidance in each of those lineages we want to practice in.
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Much depends on ‘where you are’ in terms of, you might say, the depth of one’s practice. It’s been my observation that, in terms of sheer numbers among people in the west who follow a particular Vajrayana tradition, most are what I would describe as ‘casual practitioners’. They may engage in one or more sadhana practices and ask the Lama when they have questions. A little more serious are those who do ngondro. Among this group are also those who start learning everything they can, how to make Tormas or how to read Tibetan. They go on short retreats. Out of this group emerge a few who will do a three years retreat and perhaps become lamas themselves. All along this scale exists a relationship with the teacher which likewise runs alone from casual to intense. Somewhere along that line is a sort of tipping point. Up to that point, it can be very helpful to attend teachings from lamas of different traditions. But beyond that point, one’s practice should be, and will be focused in one specific tradition.

This is merely my biased observation.
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by yagmort »

Hazel wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:50 pm ...That of course I would not trust the internet for.
why not?
for example, here's training curriculum as it was established by Khyunga Rinpoche while he was guiding retreats at main Drikung Lamayuru monastery in Ladakh:

-ngöndro

then the main training consists of:

-contemplative meditation on love (byams pa, the practice of empathy with the joy of others)

-contemplative meditation on compassion (nying rje, the practice of empathy with the suffering of others)

-contemplation on the bodhisattva vow. all yogins take this vow.

-yidam practice.

these four meditations require twenty one days each in the case of the first three and three months practice for the yidam. the series ends with a fire ceremony (sbyin sreg) as a celebration.

then it goes on with:

-contemplation of the guru as emptiness.


-5-limb mahamudra

and

-six dharmas of Naropa (naro cho drug)

after that

-dedication. on completing the course the yogin may become a hermit and continue to practise on his own in lengthy enclosed retreats..

but also it should be remembered, that some drikung lamas are involved in dzogchen, like Garchen Rinpoche or Traga Rinpoche, Togden Rinpoche, though drikungpa, is lineage holder of Northern Treasure and a disciple of Düdjom Rinpoche. so, ultimately it narrows down to a teacher, not a lineage.
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Giovanni
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by Giovanni »

Hazel wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:50 pm Thank you all for the feedback! It was very helpful.

For various reasons I am dipping my toe outside of Gelug and getting a sense of the land, particularly in the direction of Drikung Kagyu.

I already know the lineage that I am going to explore, but was curious about how strict people are about following one lineage and one lineage only. But also curious in general about how much they differed, which people kindly responded, thank you.

I'm talking to a lama hopefully this weekend that I hope will answer the more practical questions I had about what practice looks like for someone of my background. That of course I would not trust the internet for.
Quite right Hazel. There are no “off the peg suits” in Vajrayana. Or there shouldn’t be. Just tailor made. And the tailor is a bone fide lineage holder who knows how to read you.🙂
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by Malcolm »

Follow teachers, not lineages.
Hazel wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:50 pm Thank you all for the feedback! It was very helpful.

For various reasons I am dipping my toe outside of Gelug and getting a sense of the land, particularly in the direction of Drikung Kagyu.

I already know the lineage that I am going to explore, but was curious about how strict people are about following one lineage and one lineage only. But also curious in general about how much they differed, which people kindly responded, thank you.

I'm talking to a lama hopefully this weekend that I hope will answer the more practical questions I had about what practice looks like for someone of my background. That of course I would not trust the internet for.
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by Natan »

Follow lineages not teachers. The thing about a lineage is it's a family. Effin families, you know what I mean? They all suck except on the Disney Channel. But unbroken chain of custody of original material is the most important factor in Vajrayana. Don't matter who it is. Big fancy dreams and visions don't mean shit.
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by Giovanni »

Or…follow teachers, and the best teachers to follow are those who are part of genuine lineage. :smile:
Natan
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by Natan »

Giovanni wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:42 pm Or…follow teachers, and the best teachers to follow are those who are part of genuine lineage. :smile:
I see what you did there. And I like it!!!! Nice Middle Path Maneuver.... Trademark! MPM
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by Natan »

Since this is Kagyu Milarepa was famous for saying I am nothing but my Lineage is great. He also was famous for saying he was not some high level reincarnated Bodhisattva. He said to say so would slander Vajrayana. Even a low born murdering psychotic sorcerer can follow the tantra and be liberated. That means what is important is not an individual. What matter is the teaching. That teacher can be a raccoon as long as there is unbroken chain of custody and guaranteed fidelity to the past utterances. This is all that matters. Some will take this and grow into someone great. Others won't. The family is in the transmission.
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:06 pm Follow teachers, not lineages.
Emaho for that!

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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Unless you feel a special connection with a lineage, then you could seek out teachers in that lineage.
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Hazel
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Re: Kagyu Lineages

Post by Hazel »

There's a Drikung lama and a Drikung monastery within reasonable distances of me so that's the lineage I'm exploring. I have some reading to do but from there will keep my gaze to teachers associated with the before mentioned and my practice based on what my private meeting with the lama tells me .
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