Kagyu Lineages

[tobes]

One could get all lofty about what might be lost in translation, whilst forgetting that very few Tibetan Kagyupas ever learned Sanskrit......it transmitted fine in Tibetan.

[SilenceMonkey]

It's interesting in comparison to other Kagyu masters of the time. CTR was renowned for many things, but his command of English and deep intent to transmit the Dharma through it has been unmatched in my opinion. Traleg similar, albeit in a very different way.

But I also appreciate how certain things are lost in translation.

My mentor said that to a Tibetan master our minds look like a wiggling can of worms. They can see that we’re messed up, but they can’t imagine how we got that way or what to do about it. So they give us the Dharma and hope for the best.

What else can they do?

I don't really think there is any difference at all between Tibetan minds and Westerners minds. I find that a very weird comment.

/magnus

Western culture has a very strong influence on our minds, and afflictions mostly come from our conditioning. The nature may be the same... but I don't think it's so far fetched to say that westerners have very busy and afflicted minds. Quietude and stillness is not really the nature of western habits. I mean, doesn't it go without saying that Westerners are very complex and Tibetans are relatively simple?

[heart]

My mentor said that to a Tibetan master our minds look like a wiggling can of worms. They can see that we’re messed up, but they can’t imagine how we got that way or what to do about it. So they give us the Dharma and hope for the best.

What else can they do?

I don't really think there is any difference at all between Tibetan minds and Westerners minds. I find that a very weird comment.

/magnus

Western culture has a very strong influence on our minds, and afflictions mostly come from our conditioning. The nature may be the same... but I don't think it's so far fetched to say that westerners have very busy and afflicted minds. Quietude and stillness is not really the nature of western habits. I mean, doesn't it go without saying that Westerners are very complex and Tibetans are relatively simple?

Quietude and stillness is not really the nature of Tibetan minds either. Nor are Tibetans simple and we complicated.

/magnus

[Aryjna]

My mentor said that to a Tibetan master our minds look like a wiggling can of worms. They can see that we’re messed up, but they can’t imagine how we got that way or what to do about it. So they give us the Dharma and hope for the best.

What else can they do?

I don't really think there is any difference at all between Tibetan minds and Westerners minds. I find that a very weird comment.

/magnus

Western culture has a very strong influence on our minds, and afflictions mostly come from our conditioning. The nature may be the same... but I don't think it's so far fetched to say that westerners have very busy and afflicted minds. Quietude and stillness is not really the nature of western habits. I mean, doesn't it go without saying that Westerners are very complex and Tibetans are relatively simple?

In what way do you think they are simpler? They worry about their status, engage in all kinds of proliferation regarding the past, present, and future (though the setting may be different, e.g. how to cheat the merchant or get more out of their yaks rather than how to get a promotion, how to get more offerings if they are professional lamas), have plenty of things to gossip about, etc.

[PadmaVonSamba]

I don't really think there is any difference at all between Tibetan minds and Westerners minds. I find that a very weird comment.

/magnus

Western culture has a very strong influence on our minds, and afflictions mostly come from our conditioning. The nature may be the same... but I don't think it's so far fetched to say that westerners have very busy and afflicted minds. Quietude and stillness is not really the nature of western habits. I mean, doesn't it go without saying that Westerners are very complex and Tibetans are relatively simple?

In what way do you think they are simpler? They worry about their status, engage in all kinds of proliferation regarding the past, present, and future (though the setting may be different, e.g. how to cheat the merchant or get more out of their yaks rather than how to get a promotion, how to get more offerings if they are professional lamas), have plenty of things to gossip about, etc.

[PadmaVonSamba]

I mean, doesn't it go without saying that Westerners are very complex and Tibetans are relatively simple?

In what way do you think they are simpler?

Funny, since the practices in “Tibetan” Buddhism might be regarded by many as the most intricate and complicated of all Buddhist paths.

I think the point being made was that in the west our habit is to over-complicate matters. I don’t necessarily think that’s the case with most people (just the opposite in my opinion. I think people tend to simply very complex issues).

But I do think our very technically complicated societies and living structures contribute to mental confusion in such a way that they distort our priorities (wanting a perfectly green suburban lawn as opposed to conserving water or avoiding the use of herbicides, for example) and then getting all bent out of shape when things don’t go the way that we want them to.

With regards to translations, it’s not enough just to translate words. There are entirely different ways of thinking and seeing that require more than just translated words. Ways of seeing and thinking, of conceiving the world, these provide the context in which translated words make sense. I think this is an important consideration when it comes to not translating certain teachings. You can’t convey ideas if the language isn’t there to support it.

I am reminded of the story the earliest British Christian missionaries being unable to convert Tibetans. The Tibetan words they used for ‘resurrection’ had the same meaning as ‘zombie’ and the Tibetans basically thought, “why would anybody follow a religion started by a zombie?”

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

It's interesting in comparison to other Kagyu masters of the time. CTR was renowned for many things, but his command of English and deep intent to transmit the Dharma through it has been unmatched in my opinion. Traleg similar, albeit in a very different way.

But I also appreciate how certain things are lost in translation.

My mentor said that to a Tibetan master our minds look like a wiggling can of worms. They can see that we’re messed up, but they can’t imagine how we got that way or what to do about it. So they give us the Dharma and hope for the best.

What else can they do?

I don't really think there is any difference at all between Tibetan minds and Westerners minds. I find that a very weird comment.

/magnus

Traditional Tibetan Dharma assumes an undeveloped mind much like a fallow field. All you really have to do is plow, seed, and water. But a western mind isn't like that. It's as if there are buildings, pools, and parking lots already there instead. A simple plow isn't going to do much.

In support of this idea Dzongzar Khentsye recently said something to the effect that Tibetans had been trying to teach Westerners as if they were 19th century nomads and that it was a mistake. Then there's the story of the 16th Karmapa from the late '60s. He had met some Westerners that were highly educated and were asking him about Dharma. He could see that their intellectual minds were developed much in the same way that a khenpo or geshe would have developed their minds. So he responded generously because he assumed that such intellectual development meant an appreciation of Dharma. He ended up regretting his own generosity as the Westerners had very little appreciation for what he gave them.

I personally had a somewhat weird conversation with Lama Norlha about 10 years ago. Lama Norlha was super aggressive about getting Westerners through traditional 3 year retreats. After putting well over 100 Westerners through retreat he told me that if that many people in Tibet had done that much practice properly, without cutting any corners, then at least a few of them would have gained a significant degree of realization. He indicated that such was not the case for the people he put through retreat. And, he indicated he didn't understand what the problem was. At a different conversation he also said of Westerners, "More happens to a Westerner between the ages of 15 and 25 than happens to a Tibetan in 10 lifetimes."

So yes, the nature of our minds are the same as Tibetans--of course. But no, our craziness is much more developed and therefore our efforts at Dharma have many more difficulties.

Doesn't that accord with your experience also?

[SilenceMonkey]

(both Padma Von Samba and Schrodinger's Yidam)

In what way do you think they are simpler? They worry about their status, engage in all kinds of proliferation regarding the past, present, and future (though the setting may be different, e.g. how to cheat the merchant or get more out of their yaks rather than how to get a promotion, how to get more offerings if they are professional lamas), have plenty of things to gossip about, etc.

Their culture is simpler so the afflictions are simpler. The delusions are simpler.

About gossip... its an interesting window into the question. What we normally think of as "gossip" in English would be something like what you can hear many older tibetans talking about at chai shops in India: "Did you hear about... ? A ma ma! So bad, so bad!" (Neighborhood gossip)

But I think we should also recognize that the word "gossip" when used by Buddhists means any meaningless or idle talk. ie. Any talk unrelated to Dharma and Dharma practice, which pretty much covers all conversations in western society. Just saying.

I think generally, people who aren't educated have simpler minds. And people with education, our minds are exposed to so much more of the world of ideas that our minds become a tangled mess. Hence the emphasis of many spiritual teachers on emptying the mind and unlearning all of our learning.

Imagine a Tibetan master trying to teach Dharma to a conspiracy theorist. Or a hardcore activist. Or a western philosopher. Too much to untangle! It would be much easier to teach someone without all this "education."

Our modern lives are complicated and full of distraction. Tibetan culture on the whole is still struggling with literacy, so there's often not much complexity to untangle.

In her DVD "The Nature of Mind," Tenzin Palmo gave a nice talk about the simplicity of the Tibetan mind and how that made it a very fertile ground for the complexity of Tibetan Dharma to take root. It looks like it's not on Youtube, I remember hearing her talk on this topic in the film with some real insight.

Quietude and stillness is not really the nature of Tibetan minds either. Nor are Tibetans simple and we complicated.

/magnus

I think the mind becomes more quiet when the pace of life is slow. Living out in the open plains and the mountains, under the open sky... That in itself will make one's mind simple and relaxed.

[Hazel]

No one has broken the ToS (thank you!), but we're in risky territory so I wanted to say some things.

I want to encourage folks to be extra careful when comparing cultures when they do not belong to both cultures. I am not sure who this does or does not apply to, so if you are of these cultures ignore. All the nuance is lost when one culture looks at another as your own culture is how you interpret other cultures, so things can get tricky and people's life blood can be reduced.

This isn't scolding, just encouragement of caution.


And now non-mod text, because this is my debatable opinion: "simpler" is a stone's throw away from calling a culture "primitive" which is an elevation of one's own cultural values of a different person's cultural values.

[heart]

My mentor said that to a Tibetan master our minds look like a wiggling can of worms. They can see that we’re messed up, but they can’t imagine how we got that way or what to do about it. So they give us the Dharma and hope for the best.

What else can they do?

I don't really think there is any difference at all between Tibetan minds and Westerners minds. I find that a very weird comment.

/magnus

Traditional Tibetan Dharma assumes an undeveloped mind much like a fallow field. All you really have to do is plow, seed, and water. But a western mind isn't like that. It's as if there are buildings, pools, and parking lots already there instead. A simple plow isn't going to do much.

In support of this idea Dzongzar Khentsye recently said something to the effect that Tibetans had been trying to teach Westerners as if they were 19th century nomads and that it was a mistake. Then there's the story of the 16th Karmapa from the late '60s. He had met some Westerners that were highly educated and were asking him about Dharma. He could see that their intellectual minds were developed much in the same way that a khenpo or geshe would have developed their minds. So he responded generously because he assumed that such intellectual development meant an appreciation of Dharma. He ended up regretting his own generosity as the Westerners had very little appreciation for what he gave them.

I personally had a somewhat weird conversation with Lama Norlha about 10 years ago. Lama Norlha was super aggressive about getting Westerners through traditional 3 year retreats. After putting well over 100 Westerners through retreat he told me that if that many people in Tibet had done that much practice properly, without cutting any corners, then at least a few of them would have gained a significant degree of realization. He indicated that such was not the case for the people he put through retreat. And, he indicated he didn't understand what the problem was. At a different conversation he also said of Westerners, "More happens to a Westerner between the ages of 15 and 25 than happens to a Tibetan in 10 lifetimes."

So yes, the nature of our minds are the same as Tibetans--of course. But no, our craziness is much more developed and therefore our efforts at Dharma have many more difficulties.

Doesn't that accord with your experience also?

Not at all, the only thing that differs between westerners and tibetans is that as soon as the lama start teaching the tibetans are all going home. That said it is certainly a mistake to teach us like we where nomads but we didn't grow up with the Dharma everywhere a round us either, so some effort is necessary on the part of the Lama. To tell you the truth if none of Lama Norlas students attained realisation I think it is mostly on him.

/magnus

[Aryjna]

Their culture is simpler so the afflictions are simpler. The delusions are simpler.

About gossip... its an interesting window into the question. What we normally think of as "gossip" in English would be something like what you can hear many older tibetans talking about at chai shops in India: "Did you hear about... ? A ma ma! So bad, so bad!" (Neighborhood gossip)

But I think we should also recognize that the word "gossip" when used by Buddhists means any meaningless or idle talk. ie. Any talk unrelated to Dharma and Dharma practice, which pretty much covers all conversations in western society. Just saying.

I think generally, people who aren't educated have simpler minds. And people with education, our minds are exposed to so much more of the world of ideas that our minds become a tangled mess. Hence the emphasis of many spiritual teachers on emptying the mind and unlearning all of our learning.

Imagine a Tibetan master trying to teach Dharma to a conspiracy theorist. Or a hardcore activist. Or a western philosopher. Too much to untangle! It would be much easier to teach someone without all this "education."

Our modern lives are complicated and full of distraction. Tibetan culture on the whole is still struggling with literacy, so there's often not much complexity to untangle.

In her DVD "The Nature of Mind," Tenzin Palmo gave a nice talk about the simplicity of the Tibetan mind and how that made it a very fertile ground for the complexity of Tibetan Dharma to take root. It looks like it's not on Youtube, I remember hearing her talk on this topic in the film with some real insight.

Whenever I've been to small villages etc., in the west, old people who used to live somewhat similarly to old Tibetans are just sitting out and constantly watching what's happening, asking questions about people passing by the street, gossiping, not in a good way necessarily. Instead of having messages popping up from whatsapp, they are sitting distracting each other with conversation. The results seems to me to be the same.

A western philosopher may already have no interest in the dharma, as is the case for many Tibetans who have no interest in the dharma. This doesn't really matter, as the people of interest are those who are interested in the dharma.

One thing that seems like it can make a difference may be that many jobs in the west are not manual labor, and especially if they are stressful it may be difficult to be practicing while working. If you're watching sheep it can be easier. Then again, there is a lot of manual labor in the west too, one may be moving boxes in an amazon warehouse.

[Malcolm]

Imagine a Tibetan master trying to teach Dharma to a conspiracy theorist. Or a hardcore activist. Or a western philosopher. Too much to untangle! It would be much easier to teach someone without all this "education."

Ahem, I know quite a few conspiracy theorists, hard core activists, and western philosophers who follow Tibetan masters, they don't seem to have the troubles you are describing.

[Malcolm]

Traditional Tibetan Dharma assumes an undeveloped mind much like a fallow field.

No, this is completely misguided and wrong.

[conebeckham]

I really don't think sending people in retreat reading a text they don't understand will ever create enlightened beings.
And translating the "Thangdelma" but not mentioning that you didn't translate the whole text, well that is just stupid.

So Cone, what texts been translated?

/magnus

I have not done a close comparison, but I believe the entire ThangDelMa is translated.

I think the whole of Niguma's Vajra Words, Khungpo Naljor's Clarification and inventory, Kongtrul's liturgy for the Five Golden Dharmas, ThangGyal's text on the Six Dharmas, and the Thangdelma of Taranatha are complete, based on a quick skim. Kongtrul's Single Sitting Guide looks complete to me, too.

It's ThangTong Gyalpo's text on the "Auxiliary Practices" that is not complete, I think--in the Tsadra DNZ they have broken out one long collection of instructions into sections, and the Six Arm Wisdom Protector and Guru Inseperable is not included. Everything else appears there, though, so it is not "incomplete" because all the main Five Golden Dharmas material is covered.

The DNZ has two big volumes of Shangpa stuff, of course. Everything not directly related to the main Five Golden Dharnas practices are not here in Harding's translation. I imagine many of the absent texts will appear in the Tsadra editions of the DNZ in English at some future date. But the Mahakala stuff may be omitted--I don't know.

[conebeckham]

I heard the previous Kalu R say something to the effect that the Tibetan had to be used until a native speaker gained realization. Then he said you could put away the Tibetan on a shelf somewhere.

That’s not an exact quote, but the gist of what I remember him saying. It’s been a long time. I could be off.

My understanding is that Kalu Rinpoche’s reason for keeping sadhana recitation in Tibetan was so that wherever kagyu practitioners came from in the world, if they got together, such as in the case of a big monlam gathering, everybody would be chanting the same words together.

There is a big difference between chanting in Tibetan and not translating the sadhana. You don't need to chant in english because the text is translated.

/magnus

True. And the liturgies are actually all translated and phoneticized at this point. But restricted to those with Empowerment and Tri, mostly.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

To tell you the truth if none of Lama Norlas students attained realisation I think it is mostly on him.

His approach was, “Tibetans have defilements and Westerners have defilements. Just do the practices like we did. No need to change anything.”

So, yeah.

I’ve heard rumors that Samye Ling and KTD are suspending their 3 year retreat programs. I can only speculate why.

[PadmaVonSamba]

To tell you the truth if none of Lama Norlas students attained realisation I think it is mostly on him.

His approach was, “Tibetans have defilements and Westerners have defilements. Just do the practices like we did. No need to change anything.”

So, yeah.

I’ve heard rumors that Samye Ling and KTD are suspending their 3 year retreat programs. I can only speculate why.

Speculate all you like. It costs nothing.
But the retreat master died in 2019.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Speculate all you like. It costs nothing.
But the retreat master died in 2019.

Lama Norlha passed away in 2018. There was a retreat in progress. Situ R first sent a temporary retreat master on an emergency basis, and then a permanent one. I don’t think staffing is the problem.

[Malcolm]

Speculate all you like. It costs nothing.
But the retreat master died in 2019.

Lama Norlha passed away in 2018. There was a retreat in progress. Situ R first sent a temporary retreat master on an emergency basis, and then a permanent one. I don’t think staffing is the problem.

The problem is the notion of realization and what it is.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Speculate all you like. It costs nothing.
But the retreat master died in 2019.

Lama Norlha passed away in 2018. There was a retreat in progress. Situ R first sent a temporary retreat master on an emergency basis, and then a permanent one. I don’t think staffing is the problem.

The problem is the notion of realization and what it is.

Lol, presumably that’s the domain of the retreat master(s). In any case it’s above my pay grade.