Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation

Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 2:09 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 1:47 pm It’s a little convoluted, but very interesting.
The long and short of it is that OTD is not a monk.
His own status is his business, but as a public figure I appreciate his letting us know.

However what’s interesting to me is his assertion that if he (and by extension, if anyone) wasn’t actively willing to take vows, the vows are not valid. That has significance beyond his personal status for us all.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:19 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 2:09 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 1:47 pm It’s a little convoluted, but very interesting.
The long and short of it is that OTD is not a monk.
His own status is his business, but as a public figure I appreciate his letting us know.

However what’s interesting to me is his assertion that if he (and by extension, if anyone) wasn’t actively willing to take vows, the vows are not valid. That has significance beyond his personal status for us all.
That is correct. It is not his assertion. At the end of even a refuge ceremony, the person giving the vows asks the recipient "Are you happy?" If the person were to answer "no," or later feel they did not understand what they were participating in, those vows are invalid.
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Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation

Post by Ayu »

I changed the title of the OP, because it was not clear, which Karmapa they are referring to.
It seems at the beginning the topic was about both.
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by mabw »

jmlee369 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 11:12 am
... the Kagyupas hold the lineage of the Upper Vinaya transmission and Gelugpas follow the Lower Vinaya transmission...
Can someone elaborate on the Upper and Lower Vinaya transmission? Have never heard of it. Thanks.
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Malcolm »

mabw wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 5:18 pm
jmlee369 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 11:12 am
... the Kagyupas hold the lineage of the Upper Vinaya transmission and Gelugpas follow the Lower Vinaya transmission...
Can someone elaborate on the Upper and Lower Vinaya transmission? Have never heard of it. Thanks.
Two different transmissions of bhikṣu ordination to Tibet. the Lower transmission refers to lineage brought to Tibet in the imperial period, which survived in mdo smad, i.e. Northeastern or Lower Do. Stod refers to the transmission that came through Śākyaśrībhadra during the 13th century.
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Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation

Post by Sādhaka »

Although a footnote in one of Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen Rinpoche’s works, quoting, or rather paraphrasing seemingly, Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, says:

Dzogchen Practice of the Bön Tradition wrote:”...in the Western lifestyle we have many free periods in which we can practice, so sometimes it may be even better than being a monk, because a monk has so many different duties and rituals to perform.”

Yet there are also more distractions in the western lifestyle; therefore YMMV, as they say.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Mon May 24, 2021 7:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
mabw
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by mabw »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 6:10 pm
Two different transmissions of bhikṣu ordination to Tibet. the Lower transmission refers to lineage brought to Tibet in the imperial period, which survived in mdo smad, i.e. Northeastern or Lower Do. Stod refers to the transmission that came through Śākyaśrībhadra during the 13th century.
Thank you. So the lower and upper refer to the differing time periods right? And both were Mulasarvastivada?
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Malcolm »

mabw wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 7:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 6:10 pm
Two different transmissions of bhikṣu ordination to Tibet. the Lower transmission refers to lineage brought to Tibet in the imperial period, which survived in mdo smad, i.e. Northeastern or Lower Do. Stod refers to the transmission that came through Śākyaśrībhadra during the 13th century.
Thank you. So the lower and upper refer to the differing time periods right? And both were Mulasarvastivada?
They refer to upper and lower Tibet, and yes, both areMulasarvastivad
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Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 7:02 pm Although a footnote in one of Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen Rinpoche’s works, quoting, or rather paraphrasing seemingly, Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, says:

Dzogchen Practice of the Bön Tradition wrote:”...in the Western lifestyle we have many free periods in which we can practice, so sometimes it may be even better than being a monk, because a monk has so many different duties and rituals to perform.”

Yet there are also more distractions in the western lifestyle; therefore YMMV, as they say.
It is pretty impossible to be a monastic these days...
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Sādhaka
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Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation

Post by Sādhaka »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 7:52 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 7:02 pm Although a footnote in one of Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen Rinpoche’s works, quoting, or rather paraphrasing seemingly, Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, says:

Dzogchen Practice of the Bön Tradition wrote:”...in the Western lifestyle we have many free periods in which we can practice, so sometimes it may be even better than being a monk, because a monk has so many different duties and rituals to perform.”

Yet there are also more distractions in the western lifestyle; therefore YMMV, as they say.

It is pretty impossible to be a monastic these days...

Seemingly so....

Although my post had a context related to my post right before it, that is no longer there.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Mon May 24, 2021 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Tenpel »

Malcom wrote:
[/quote]

No, he considers the getsul ordination invalid. Read more closely.
[/quote]

He does not explicitly say, he considers it invalid. Don’t ask me to read between the lines or to speculate. Please prove your claim and quote him where he allegedly says, he considers his ordination to be invalid. He does not.

But he reflects on the motivation of renunciation as a basis of pure vows etc. But while renunciation is the best motivation, other, mundane motivations, are also permissible to become a monk! Moreover, during the ritual he had explicitly to request the ordination different times. He does not say he did that but he says he received the novice ordination. So, he received it. He could have abandoned it afterwards. But he did not as it seems. Moreover, his official website states: “During the 17 years he has lived in India as a guest of the Indian government, His Holiness has continued his traditional monastic training and philosophical education, but has also begun studying more modern subjects such as Science and English language.” How can he gave a “traditional monastic training” without being a monk. A lay person does not have “a traditional monastic training.”
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Tenpel »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 1:35 pm
Tenpel wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 8:11 am The source says he received bama rabjung and novice vows from the Dalai Lama. So, he is a monk and has the vows of celibacy. He does not say he considers himself an upasaka / lay person after he received the novice vows from the Dalai Lama.
No, he considers the getsul ordination invalid. Read more closely.
As I said already, he does nowhere say he considers his ordination to be invalid, Malcom. Please prove your claim and don’t claim unverified things. This topic needs clarity and not ambiguity; or even distortions, leading away or blurring the facts. If you have any proof or evidence that the Karmapa said, he considers his ordination to be invalid, share it with the exact source and quote, otherwise stop to claim unsubstantiated things.

For the time being, to settle the topic hopefully, the official website itself states that the Karmapa received ordination as a getsul and it was especially auspicious to have received it by the Dalai Lama:

“On July 24, the 15th day of the 6th Tibetan month, His Holiness the Gyalwang Karmapa received his ordination as a novice monk (dge tshul pha) from His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who was assisted at the ceremony by His Eminence Gyaltsab Rinpoche. This joyous occasion was marked by three days of celebration at Gyuto Monastery. It is considered particularly auspicious that His Holiness was able to receive his Getsul vows from the Dalai Lama. After the Karmapa received his vows, His Holiness the Dalai Lama conferred novice and final ordination on some 800 monks from southern India.”

https://kagyuoffice.org/may-august-2002/
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Malcolm »

Just read the office statement. It’s clearly stated there, that he attended an ordination, but does not consider it binding.
Tenpel wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:06 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 1:35 pm
Tenpel wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 8:11 am The source says he received bama rabjung and novice vows from the Dalai Lama. So, he is a monk and has the vows of celibacy. He does not say he considers himself an upasaka / lay person after he received the novice vows from the Dalai Lama.
No, he considers the getsul ordination invalid. Read more closely.
As I said already, he does nowhere say he considers his ordination to be invalid, Malcom. Please prove your claim and don’t claim unverified things. This topic needs clarity and not ambiguity; or even distortions, leading away or blurring the facts. If you have any proof or evidence that the Karmapa said, he considers his ordination to be invalid, share it with the exact source and quote, otherwise stop to claim unsubstantiated things.

For the time being, to settle the topic hopefully, the official website itself states that the Karmapa received ordination as a getsul and it was especially auspicious to have received it by the Dalai Lama:

“On July 24, the 15th day of the 6th Tibetan month, His Holiness the Gyalwang Karmapa received his ordination as a novice monk (dge tshul pha) from His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who was assisted at the ceremony by His Eminence Gyaltsab Rinpoche. This joyous occasion was marked by three days of celebration at Gyuto Monastery. It is considered particularly auspicious that His Holiness was able to receive his Getsul vows from the Dalai Lama. After the Karmapa received his vows, His Holiness the Dalai Lama conferred novice and final ordination on some 800 monks from southern India.”

https://kagyuoffice.org/may-august-2002/
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Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation

Post by tobes »

I appreciate his honesty in that statement.

He is basically saying "I'm still waiting to generate genuine renunciation in my being; I have not accomplished this yet."

Given how much unbridled devotion he receives, and how easily the imputation 'buddha' falls upon his shoulders, and how possible it is exploit this for personal or political gain - that kind of honesty is quite precious.
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Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation

Post by Tenpel »

I agree with the honesty - which is a hall mark of his qualities IMO.

However, I strongly feel, Malcom is reframing the whole issue and though he knows so much, he misses here the point - maybe because he is not really familiar with the Vinaya or didn’t receive commentaries on it.

First of all, renunciation is something to be developed and not there from the start for most people when they ordain. Though renunciation is the best motivation, it’s not the decisive principle of receiving the vows; or having received the vows (or not having received them). As I said, mundane motivations are also permissible say the commentaries - e.g. protection from fear or protection from hunger (when I remember the oral Vinaya commentaries I received correctly, it were these two.) It’s recommended at least before ordination to generate a type of artificial renunciation. But this is not the decisive principle. Nobody is expected to have, or to take ordination with a fully fledged renunciation. Not having pure renunciation when taking the vows or after having received the vows does not make them invalid. The vows are been produced by requesting them and receiving them, the proper ritual, and this has been the case here, he requested them and he received them, and it was a proper ritual. You can read details about the coming into existence of vows also in the Abhidharmas or Jangon Kongtrul’s Boom 5 on Ethics. For the ritual see also the 84.000 website.

Now, with respect to intention. Sorry, it’s a lame excuse to say he / I didn’t have the intention to receive the novice vows when going to the ordination ceremony. Why? With respect to intention there is “causal motivation” and “time motivation” - according to the Abhidharma. So, if he didn’t have the causal motivation to take the novice vows when he went to the ordination ceremony, then he has had the time motivation when asking three times for the novice ordination during the ritual. Hence, he had the motivation at the time of receiving the vows. It is similar to having the causal motivation not wanting to kill the mosquito but finding it unbearable then when the mosquito is too much irritating, killing it. It’s the fully fledged act of killing. Or not wanting to give to beggars but being overwhelmed by the sufferings of a beggar, out of strong compassion or empathy giving him alms. It’s a fully fledged act of giving. Or not wanting to engage in sexual activities because you took the vow of celibacy but being overwhelmed by sexual desire, engaging in sexual activity through one of the three doors at the time of an opportunity. It’s the fully fledged act of having broken your vow of celibacy. You cannot escape this fact of having done the act by saying “but I didn’t have the intention to have sex.” You didn’t have the intention initially (causal motivation) but you had it at the time of the act (time motivation).

Moreover, it would be rather a matter to discuss this with your abbot than speculating freely but with many doubts about it, without having clarity - as it seems.

And then there is another problem here, not being a monk but collecting money or receiving alms as a monk. There is no statement whatsoever on the website or awareness in the public or any type of clear statement that he is not a monk anymore but there is a statement on his official website that he is ordained and received the getsul vows. Receiving alms as a monk without being it is extremely negative karma.
Last edited by Tenpel on Tue May 25, 2021 7:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation

Post by Giovanni »

I don’t see how we can judge what motivation is in the hearts of those who donate Tenpei.
I think people maybe donate to The Karmapa or to head of the Karma Kagyu without thinking about his monastic status.
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Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation

Post by Malcolm »

It’s pretty clear to the Tibetan bhikshus I know that he is not a monk or a novice. Indeed, it was they who brought it to my attention.
Tenpel wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:58 am I agree with the honesty - which is a hall mark of his qualities IMO.

However, I strongly feel, Malcom is reframing the whole issue and though he knows so much, he misses here the point - maybe because he is not really familiar with the Vinaya or didn’t receive commentaries on it.

First of all, renunciation is something to be developed and not there from the start for most people when they ordain. Though renunciation is the best motivation, it’s not the decisive principle of receiving the vows; or having received the vows (or not having received them). As I said, mundane motivations are also permissible say the commentaries - e.g. protection from fear or protection from hunger (when I remember the oral Vinaya commentaries I received correctly, it were these two.) It’s recommended at least before ordination to generate a type of artificial renunciation. But this is not the decisive principle. Nobody is expected to have, or to take ordination with a fully fledged renunciation. Not having pure renunciation when taking the vows or after having received the vows does not make them invalid. The vows are been produced by requesting them and receiving them, the proper ritual, and this has been the case here, he requested them and he received them, and it was a proper ritual. You can read details about the coming into existence of vows also in the Abhidharmas or Jangon Kongtrul’s Boom 5 on Ethics. For the ritual see also the 84.000 website.

Now, with respect to intention. Sorry, it’s a lame excuse to say he / I didn’t have the intention to receive the novice vows when going to the ordination ceremony. Why? With respect to intention there is “causal motivation” and “time motivation” - according to the Abhidharma. So, if he didn’t have the causal motivation to take the novice vows when he went to the ordination ceremony, then he has had the time motivation when asking three times for the novice ordination during the ritual. Hence, he had the motivation at the time of receiving the vows. It is similar to having the causal motivation not wanting to kill the mosquito but finding it unbearable then when the mosquito is too much irritating, killing it. It’s the fully fledged act of killing. Or not wanting to give to beggars but being overwhelmed by the sufferings of a beggar, out of strong compassion or empathy giving him alms. It’s a fully fledged act of giving. Or not wanting to engage in sexual activities because you took the vow of celibacy but being overwhelmed by sexual desire, engaging in sexual activity through one of the three doors at the time of an opportunity. It’s the fully fledged act of having broken your vow of celibacy. You cannot escape this fact of having done the act by saying “but I didn’t have the intention to have sex.” You didn’t have the intention initially (causal motivation) but you had it at the time of the act (time motivation).

Moreover, it would be rather a matter to discuss this with your abbot than speculating freely but with many doubts about it, without having clarity - as it seems.

And then there is another problem here, not being a monk but collecting money or receiving alms as a monk. There is no statement whatsoever on the website or awareness in the public or any type of clear statement that he is not a monk anymore but there is a statement on his official website that he is ordained and received the getsul vows. Receiving alms as a monk without being it is extremely negative karma.
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Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation

Post by Thubten Wangmo »

I am thinking that renunciation and intention are analysed here, but what is embedded in the Karmapa's statement is the factor of doubt.
How does doubt affect vows, Tenzin? If you doubt about your ability to practise as a monk are you no longer a monk? Has the Karmapa been doing Sojong, etc? What constitutes actively holding vows?

And Malcolm, to which school do your 'Bhikshus' belong and with what reasoning do they say the Karmapa is 'not a monk or a novice monk'? This does leave the last category of 'intermediate' ordination.

However, the Karmapa says:

In actuality, the vow of intermediate ordination is not the actual monastic ordination. It is really just permission to wear the robes, the symbol of religious ordination. One sets aside the clothes of a layperson and takes up the symbolic robes of ordination, but it is not actual ordination.


The Karmapa also distinguishes 'inner and 'outer' vows...

'...So he actually received the novice and full monastic vows i from a lay person. What did he mean by that? It was based on the kindness of Dromtönpa that he generated the mind of renunciation, and it’s based on generating this mind of renunciation that one receives the true vows, the perfectly pure vows, the ethical conduct of the vow of renunciation. The vows that he received before were just an outer appearance of receiving the vows, he had not received the inner essence of the vows, the life-force of the vows. This illustrates a very important critical point. The vows are not received merely through the outer form; what we really need in order to receive the true vows comes from having this inner essence.'

According to this the Karmapa doesn't consider himself to have 'true vows' or vows with 'life force'.

The ordination he wanted to take was the intermediate one, that he asked HHDL to give him. I am not sure it's clear when he realised he had taken getsul rather than intermediate vows if he did not know the difference at the time?

Then he says he is full of hope that he will be able to receive the vows fully before he dies so the implication is that he isn't holding the vows fully but he is holding something.

it is difficult have stable renunciation and a mind with the stable longing for liberation. And without these, it is difficult to hold the vows in a completely pure way. So I am trying to develop stable renunciation within my being. I am trying to develop a certain degree of true renunciation—it’s difficult to generate a really high level—but if I can develop a certain degree of renunciation, I feel that I will be able to receive the vows of individual liberation in a full and complete way. Then, at the time of death, if I can die with the support of ordination, I feel my mind would be at ease. This is the high hope that I hold for myself and the reason things have been as they are up to now.

Aren't we just trying to define what that 'something' is? I wonder how much difference his way of 'holding' or not holding vows would make to his capacity to teach? The problem lately goes rather a lot further than just 'doubts' though, doesn't it?
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Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation

Post by Malcolm »

Thubten Wangmo wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:47 pm I am thinking that renunciation and intention are analysed here, but what is embedded in the Karmapa's statement is the factor of doubt.
How does doubt affect vows, Tenzin? If you doubt about your ability to practise as a monk are you no longer a monk? Has the Karmapa been doing Sojong, etc? What constitutes actively holding vows?

And Malcolm, to which school do your 'Bhikshus' belong and with what reasoning do they say the Karmapa is 'not a monk or a novice monk'? This does leave the last category of 'intermediate' ordination.
Mulasarvastivadin (The rules of Vinaya are the same in ALL Tibetan schools) and is based on OTD's statement in Tibetan, not English.

"Bar ma rab 'byung" (*madhyapravrajita) is a Tibetan invention, common in all Tibetan monastic institutes, but still a Tibetan idea. You will not find that term in Vinaya itself.

There are only eight kinds of pratimokṣa vows: upāsaka, upavasa, śramanera, bhikṣu + their equivalents for women. The śikṣamāṇā probationary period for women is not really considered a separate vow. Also, there is no celibate upāsaka vow in Mulasarvastivada.

It should be noted that he made this announcement in January 2019, the month he allegedly ended contact with Vikki Hui Xin Han, which lead to her lawsuit filed in June 2019.
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Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation

Post by Thubten Wangmo »

Yes, Malcolm, I had noted the tie up of the dates with the alleged interactions mentioned in that case.

The sense of 'searching for blame' in the confusion somewhere in his early experiences, the statement that he would 'like to start from the beginning again'; to have perfect vows before death; in that context it makes this talk seem like hidden messages he can't state outright.

If we conclude that he no longer has vows, and is 'starting again' and that he also took getsul vows with HHDL, as Tenzin says, then what is in between is breaking them.
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