Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation

Chaz
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Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation

Post by Chaz »

Is there something out there that mandates/requires that the Karmapa be amonastic? Could the Karmapa "hang up his robes" and become a greeter at Wal-Mart? Own a dairy farm? Get married and have a family? Let his hair and beard grow and live incognito in Luxor?

Would he still be Karmapa?
Last edited by Ayu on Mon May 24, 2021 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Changed subject line, because it was unclear, which Karmapa is meant exactly.
GrapeLover
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by GrapeLover »

Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje is married with a family

In practice, any recognised tulku could do whatever they want and they’d still have that recognition. There will just be massive, quite inescapable societal pressure (often inculcated since early childhood) for the major tulkus to fulfil their traditional roles
Giovanni
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Giovanni »

Not just Karmapas. If there is to be another Dalai Lama it could in theory be a female baby who then grows into a woman who marries and has children. There is no implication of gender or monasticism in role.
There are cultural reasons why heads of schools have been male and monk. But things change.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

There’s a documentary called “Tulku” by Gesar Mukpo you might want to watch.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Nemo
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Nemo »

I wish OTD the best. He has that Karmapa energy. Putting a kid in charge of a religious org that is a tiny bit culty after many years of imprisonment was not going to be easy. I think this falls on us to ask what he wants to do with his life.
Malcolm
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Malcolm »

Chaz wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:14 pm Is there something out there that mandates/requires that the Karmapa be amonastic? Could the Karmapa "hang up his robes" and become a greeter at Wal-Mart? Own a dairy farm? Get married and have a family? Let his hair and beard grow and live incognito in Luxor?

Would he still be Karmapa?
Niether of the present Karmapas are monks.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
Arnoud
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Arnoud »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:04 pm
Chaz wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:14 pm Is there something out there that mandates/requires that the Karmapa be amonastic? Could the Karmapa "hang up his robes" and become a greeter at Wal-Mart? Own a dairy farm? Get married and have a family? Let his hair and beard grow and live incognito in Luxor?

Would he still be Karmapa?
Niether of the present Karmapas are monks.
Really? I thought OTD definitely ordained some people and received Gelong vows.
Malcolm
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Malcolm »

Arnoud wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:34 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:04 pm
Chaz wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:14 pm Is there something out there that mandates/requires that the Karmapa be amonastic? Could the Karmapa "hang up his robes" and become a greeter at Wal-Mart? Own a dairy farm? Get married and have a family? Let his hair and beard grow and live incognito in Luxor?

Would he still be Karmapa?
Niether of the present Karmapas are monks.
Really? I thought OTD definitely ordained some people and received Gelong vows.
He attended an ordination, and later complained that he did not consider it valid since he was not asked if he wanted to receive full ordination. He considers himself an upāsaka. This was quite the buzz amongst Tibetans a couple of years ago.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
Arnoud
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Arnoud »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:40 pm
Arnoud wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:34 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:04 pm

Niether of the present Karmapas are monks.
Really? I thought OTD definitely ordained some people and received Gelong vows.
He attended an ordination, and later complained that he did not consider it valid since he was not asked if he wanted to receive full ordination. He considers himself an upāsaka. This was quite the buzz amongst Tibetans a couple of years ago.
Interesting. I did not know that. Thank you.
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Matt J
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Matt J »

What about the robes and shaved head? Fashion choices? :)
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:40 pm He attended an ordination, and later complained that he did not consider it valid since he was not asked if he wanted to receive full ordination. He considers himself an upāsaka. This was quite the buzz amongst Tibetans a couple of years ago.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Malcolm »

Matt J wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 6:28 pm What about the robes and shaved head? Fashion choices? :)
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:40 pm He attended an ordination, and later complained that he did not consider it valid since he was not asked if he wanted to receive full ordination. He considers himself an upāsaka. This was quite the buzz amongst Tibetans a couple of years ago.
Business suit.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
Palden_Norbu
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Palden_Norbu »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:40 pm
Arnoud wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:34 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:04 pm

Niether of the present Karmapas are monks.
Really? I thought OTD definitely ordained some people and received Gelong vows.
He attended an ordination, and later complained that he did not consider it valid since he was not asked if he wanted to receive full ordination. He considers himself an upāsaka. This was quite the buzz amongst Tibetans a couple of years ago.
Could you please provide a source? (for my curiosity / future reference). I think he said that when he was young he was told to wear robes even though not ordained, but I forgot where he said that.
gb9810
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by gb9810 »

Palden_Norbu wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:40 pm
Arnoud wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 5:34 pm

Really? I thought OTD definitely ordained some people and received Gelong vows.
He attended an ordination, and later complained that he did not consider it valid since he was not asked if he wanted to receive full ordination. He considers himself an upāsaka. This was quite the buzz amongst Tibetans a couple of years ago.
Could you please provide a source? (for my curiosity / future reference). I think he said that when he was young he was told to wear robes even though not ordained, but I forgot where he said that.
http://www.kagyumonlam.org/index.php/en ... gyu-monlam
Tenpel
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Tenpel »

The source says he received bama rabjung and novice vows from the Dalai Lama. So, he is a monk and has the vows of celibacy. He does not say he considers himself an upasaka / lay person after he received the novice vows from the Dalai Lama.
jmlee369
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by jmlee369 »

The 10th and 15th Karmapas renounced their monk vows and had families, so it wouldn't be unprecedented and as noted previously, Karmapa Thaye Dorje has already returned his monk vows and lives as a layperson. There are plenty of recognised tulkus who do their own thing, some don't even get past the initial recognition.

Regarding Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje, my understanding is that he received barma rabjung and getsul (sramanera) vows from His Holiness the Dalai Lama. However, it was not his intention to receive the sramanera vows at that time because the Kagyupas hold the lineage of the Upper Vinaya transmission and Gelugpas follow the Lower Vinaya transmission, and the Kagyu lineage holders wanted the Karmapa to continue in his own tradition's Vinaya lineage. He has never taken gelong (bhikshu) ordination.

I will quote from the link gb9810 provided:
After I had come to India, in 2002, Kyabje Tenga Rinpoche gave me some advice. He said, “Up to now, you have not received any vows of ordination, and it would be good if you did so. The first vow you should take is barma rabjung—intermediate ordination.” That was the first I had heard of intermediate ordination. It is said that the 16th Gyalwang Karmapa received this intermediate ordination from the HH the Dalai Lama, so Rinpoche thought that it would be good if I received it from the Dalai Lama. Tenga Rinpoche further advised that it would be good for me to receive the vows of novice and full ordination from Chamgon Situ Rinpoche and Kyabje Gyaltsab Rinpoche since I should receive the vows according to our Kagyu tradition. We shared this advice and thinking with Chamgon Situ Rinpoche and Kyabje Gyaltsab Rinpoche, and they agreed that it was very good. A message was sent through Lobsang Jinpa, the secretary of His Holiness’ Private Office, to His Holiness requesting him to grant the vows of intermediate ordination, explaining that since I had to uphold the lineage of the vows of our Kagyu tradition, there was a plan for me to receive the vows of novice and full ordination from Chamgon Situ Rinpoche and Kyabje Gyaltsab Rinpoche in the future. His Holiness received the message and consented.

In 2002, when I was 16, His Holiness granted me the vow of intermediate ordination. And on the day when he did so, he gave me both the vow of intermediate ordination and getsul [novice monks vows] at that same time. Our request was only for the intermediate ordination, but he gave me both ordinations. He must have had a special reason for doing so. Though at the time, my thought was to first receive the intermediate ordination and to later receive novice ordination from Situ Rinpoche and Gyaltsab Rinpoche, His Holiness gave me both. There was some talk within our lineage of the importance of my taking the vows according to our own tradition and that it wouldn’t be quite right to do otherwise. But at that time, to be honest, I hadn’t studied the Vinaya much. In actuality, the vow of intermediate ordination is not the actual monastic ordination. It is really just permission to wear the robes, the symbol of religious ordination. One sets aside the clothes of a layperson and takes up the symbolic robes of ordination, but it is not actual ordination.

After this, much time passed while I was wondering whether I should receive the novice vows according to our Kagyu tradition or not and what to do about full ordination. Further, I also became very busy with the work of Kagyu Monlam. As I studied the Vinaya and my understanding of it gradually increased, I felt like my former way of approaching vows was not quite correct. I thought my previous manner of taking them was not right, and that if I really wanted to receive the vows in a pure way, I should start again from the beginning. Especially, if one wants to receive the vows purely into one’s being, one needs stable renunciation and wishing for emancipation in one’s being. Without this, it would be difficult to keep the vows in a stable manner. These days, it is as if we were just following the custom of taking monks or nuns vows, but it’s actually very rare that one thinks deeply about this and wishes, from the depths of one’s being, to ordain. I think many people must be wondering and talking about why I have not taken full ordination by now. From my side, the main thing is that if renunciation and wishing for emancipation has not truly arisen, the novice and full monks vows will not be based on this ethical conduct that longs for liberation, and it would be difficult for them to result in perfectly pure ethical conduct—though there must be some benefit in holding the vows anyway.
Tenpel
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Tenpel »

Yes, though he didn’t have the intention to receive them from HHDL, but at a later time within the Kagyu school, he received them anyway, having gone through the ritual, reciting the words. Hence, in my understanding he is a novice monk with the vow of celibacy. BTW, usually barma rabjung goes along with celibacy and the wish to receive a higher ordination but at least novice ordination. He can abandon the novice vows. But so far he has not stated that he did and has appeared and has given always the impression to be a monk.
Malcolm
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Malcolm »

Tenpel wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 8:11 am The source says he received bama rabjung and novice vows from the Dalai Lama. So, he is a monk and has the vows of celibacy. He does not say he considers himself an upasaka / lay person after he received the novice vows from the Dalai Lama.
No, he considers the getsul ordination invalid. Read more closely.
"Death stands before all who are born."
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Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

It’s a little convoluted, but very interesting.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 1:47 pm It’s a little convoluted, but very interesting.
The long and short of it is that OTD is not a monk.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Karmapa's Occupation

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Double post. Deleted by SY.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Mon May 24, 2021 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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