If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

[Könchok Thrinley]

Hey, sorry for the click-bait name. But there is a nice article about Karmapas and vegetarianism right here.

Really just wanted to share. However, just in case a debate would appear, I am not at all interested in debate of whether vegetarianism is healthy, or its impact, or whatever. There are several megathreads for these discussions. I'd be more interested in sharing texts, examples and histories of great Tibetan masters who were/are vegetarian. I'd be especially glad if there were some translated teachings and texts online (especially from Karma Chagme as I adore him and his writings) about this topic.

[Giovanni]

That does not apply in the past obviously. I saw the:16th eating chicken. So when did the Kagyu become strict about meat? This year? Last year?

[Könchok Thrinley]

That does not apply in the past obviously. I saw the:16th eating chicken. So when did the Kagyu become strict about meat? This year? Last year?

I am not really interested in debating this. Ofc it does not apply on everyone and everyone does not have to be a vegetarian. Read the article, if you disagree comment to the author. I clearly intended this thread for sharing the stories, examples, etc. of past masters who were vegetarian.

[PadmaVonSamba]

Thanks for sharing this article.
The prohibition appears to be directed mainly to monastics.
That doesn’t mean that laypeople shouldn’t also follow if they can.
There are a lot of situations in people’s lives. I don’t think any laypeople will be “kicked out” any time soon.
But it should be everyone’s priority to try and eat no animals if and whenever possible.

[Danny]

Truth be told - lay folks are not “in”
To be kicked “out”.
Ordained sangha already know the rules.

So I’m genuinely puzzled who the target audience is with this article?

[SilenceMonkey]

I was looking up this scholar Geoffrey Barstow the other day, and it looks like he wrote a couple books on vegetarianism in Tibetan Buddhism in the past few years. They look pretty good!

https://thelostyak.com/publications/

[Giovanni]

Well I did not mean to cause confusion. But I am confused. I have also seen Thrangu Rinpoch, Tai Situ, and Kalu Rinpoche eat meat. They were monastics. And Akong Rinpoche, not monastic but well known Tibetan medicine Doctor.
So I am not sure who is ‘prohibited’ from meat eating. Or have they stopped being Kagyu?

[Norwegian]

This post is not about vegetarianism or not. It's just a few points I think were interesting, to say the least.

"The Karmapas and their heart sons were vegetarians and did not have any meat whatsoever. However, during the Ganachakras, a little meat was included and even the Karmapas and his heart sons ate a small amount of meat in order not to violate the secret mantra samaya."

This seems worth pointing out. Important to remember that ganapuja is integral to Vajrayana and meat and alcohol is indispensable for it. And we know what the Hevajra Tantra says as well: "Those with compassion eat meat. Those with samaya drink alcohol."

"Meat forbidden from being included in Gutor or Mahakala rituals

“Not only that, we see this in the texts the 8th Karmapa wrote himself, in his Great Commentary on the Vinaya, it says it is forbidden to put meat in the Gutor or Mahakala rituals, that people are not allowed to do this. That if they did that, ‘you are not taking me as your teacher and I do not think of you as my students and you should think about that’. He said this very forcefully and insistently.

Basically, the 8th Karmapa was saying you had to do this and follow that. Actually, many people said that I [the 17th Karmapa] said that ‘if you don’t give up meat you are not a Kagyupa’. They thought I said this and that it was really arrogant and excessive to say that. I cannot really say that, as I do not think I have the ability to decide who is a Kagyupa or not. However in 2007, in Bodh Gaya, when I gave a speech on stopping eating meat, I gave some scriptural quotes to support that, including this quote by Mikyo Dorje, and when I used those quotes they mistakenly thought I had said this.”

OK. So the Karmapa didn't actually say that if you eat meat, you're not a Kagyupa. Can the Karmapa even dictate what someone in the other Kagyu lineages can and cannot do? Seems unlikely.

"Meat is one of the eight impure things that must be abandoned by monastics

“Similarly, Mikyo Dorje also said in his Hundred Short Instructions, that as soon as people ‘go forth’ and become monastics, they must refrain from the eight impure things. There are different ways to count these eight things, but for Mikyo Dorje, they are meat, alcohol, armour, weapons, riding animals, business and housing, milking and animal husbandry. Particularly, in relation to meat, alcohol and weapons, one is not supposed to even look at them, forget about using them! He taught in that text that if you do not give up meat you are not part of the Kagyu lineage, thus it is important to apply them in practice.

The 8th Karmapa is not just being excessively confident and making it up at will. What is the scriptural source for him saying that if you don’t give up those eight impure things you are not a Kagyupa? There are some words from a sutra that Dagpo Gampopa cited, that to be a genuine student of the Buddha’s teachings you have to give up the eight impure things. Thus, the followers of the Kagyu lineage must give up these eight things."

Here he refers to how if you become a monastic in the Kagyu lineage, you must refrain from eight impure things (as listed in their tradition), and this includes meat. And so, if you don't give up meat, you're not part of the Kagyu lineage... So now all of a sudden if you do eat meat you're not a Kagyupa again, despite earlier the Karmapa said it was "really arrogant and excessive" to say this, and that he couldn't say who is or isn't a Kagyupa?

So, some questions arises from this: Who exactly is a follower of the Kagyu lineage? Is he talking about monastics only? Or does this include lay people as well? Despite all the references to monastics? And then the Karmapa says he cannot say who is or isn't a Kagyupa, because it's "really arrogant and excessive" to say such a thing yet he reiterates the point that to be a Kagyupa you cannot eat meat?

Is there something I'm missing here? It seems confusing somehow. And contradictory.

[Danny]

Is there something I'm missing here? It seems confusing somehow. And contradictory.

100%
Agree,
And thanks for the hevajra quote . Was going to bring that myself but didn’t.

Those with the highest compassion...

[Sonam Wangchug]

Karmapa did NOT say if you eat meat you are not a Kagyupa. It is a gross misrepresentation of what he said.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Interesting. Like others, I found the whole thing a bit contradictory and confusing.

However, one of the big issues it brings up is that institutional vegetarianism is largely in keeping even with the Hinayana dietary rules simply due to the fact that an organization often directly procures food in the way an individual often does not, where there is more direct participation with the system that produces the food, and where animals would specifically be slaughtered for the institution.

I have always felt that pursuing institutional vegetarianism, (or at least menus that tilt vegetarian) is a pretty practical thing to do, and again in keeping with Buddhist rules that are more universally agreed upon. I think it's a much better approach than insistence on individual, undeviating vegetarianism.

Of course, the big caption of the article gives the inclination of the person who compiled it, and not much to say about that.

[Queequeg]

Totally ignorant here. It would seem to me that meat eating and alcohol consumption are important ritual acts because it's breaking taboos. That would suggest the norm is to be veg and dry. Am I missing something?

[Tata1]

Totally ignorant here. It would seem to me that meat eating and alcohol consumption are important ritual acts because it's breaking taboos. That would suggest the norm is to be veg and dry. Am I missing something?

Yes. The other reason one eats meat during ganapuja is to benefit the being so he gets a conection towards liberation.

[Queequeg]

Totally ignorant here. It would seem to me that meat eating and alcohol consumption are important ritual acts because it's breaking taboos. That would suggest the norm is to be veg and dry. Am I missing something?

Yes. The other reason one eats meat during ganapuja is to benefit the being so he gets a conection towards liberation.

That was the explanation for eating meat in my home. That was from an East Asian perspective.

So, if veg was the norm, and meat eating is a ritual taboo violation, why is the meat eating/veg argument so hot in the Tibetan Buddhist circles here? Seems the rules are straight forward.

[karmanyingpo]

Totally ignorant here. It would seem to me that meat eating and alcohol consumption are important ritual acts because it's breaking taboos. That would suggest the norm is to be veg and dry. Am I missing something?

Yes. The other reason one eats meat during ganapuja is to benefit the being so he gets a conection towards liberation.

That was the explanation for eating meat in my home. That was from an East Asian perspective.

So, if veg was the norm, and meat eating is a ritual taboo violation, why is the meat eating/veg argument so hot in the Tibetan Buddhist circles here? Seems the rules are straight forward.

It seems less cut and dry when the context is Western converts who come to all of this with different "baggage" so to speak

KN

[PadmaVonSamba]

In any case, there are 1440 minutes in a day.

The total amount of time that an individual spends during a 24-hour period engaged in the actions of actually chewing and swallowing anything, meat or otherwise, is less than 2% of the entire day.

This means that there is still plenty of time remaining, over 98% of each day in fact, during which one can practice in the Kagyu (or any) Buddhist tradition.

If one can reduce the time of chewing and swallowing meat to less than .5% that’s even better!

[Sonam Wangchug]

“…Last year on the final day of the Kagyu Monlam, I said a few things on the subject of giving up eating meat. Almost all of you probably already know this. It seems some people did not completely understand what I said. For example, some foreign students seemed to think it meant that once you become a student of the Kagyu, meat is not allowed to pass your lips. They told all the meat-eating Kagyupas, “You can’t be a Kagyupa if you eat meat.” I did not say anything that inflammatory. If a Mahayana practitioner, who considers all sentient beings to be like their father or mother, eats the flesh of another being out of carelessness and without any compassion, that is not good. So we need to think about this and pay attention to it. All of us Mahayana practitioners, who accept that all sentient beings have been our mothers and fathers, need to think about this. For that reason, it would be good to decrease the amount of meat that we eat. That is what I said.

I certainly did not say that you are not allowed to eat meat at all. That would be difficult. Whether it is because of previous karma or their present circumstances, some people cannot do without meat. This is how it is, and there’s nothing to do about it. It’s not a problem.

If you have to eat meat, there is a proper way to eat it. Do not just grab it and stuff it into your mouth as soon as it is put on your plate. If first you think carefully about it, meditate on compassion, and recite the names of buddhas or mantras before eating, then it has some positive effects.

When I was explaining this last year, I said that one reason to give up eating meat was for the long life of the lamas. His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, passed through his “obstacle year” according to Tibetan astrology, so it was for his long life. Next year will be his post–obstacle year. I also brought up my own name. On one hand, it may have been out of desperation that I said, “If you do this for my own long life, that would be good.” Some people have asked how it is that their giving up eating meat could bring me a longer life. It’s difficult to give a direct answer to that question.

But if we don’t eat meat, even if we don’t live longer, I think we will live happier lives. If we enjoy the flesh and blood of other beings, then at the time we have to go, we might feel as if this life didn’t turn out so well. We will have carelessly consumed the flesh and blood of other beings. That might happen, right? If we don’t eat meat, life might not be longer, but there is a possibility we might be more satisfied.

Many monasteries in India and Nepal have done such great, positive things as giving up meat and cooking vegetarian food instead. This is a good example for Buddhism in general, and I think it especially becomes Mahayana practice.

In our eyes, such high lamas as Jamgon Rinpoche and Gyaltsap Rinpoche are the living presence of Manjushri and Vajrapani. Out of care for sentient beings, they intend to refrain from eating meat and to become vegetarian. I think that for them to have such an intention is actually a great fortune for all of us sentient beings; it is good fortune for all of their followers.

Some of the other high lamas who are here, Thrangu Rinpoche and Tenga Rinpoche, were present during the time of the previous Karmapa, and they are like the pillars of the teachings. Throughout their lives they have developed strong habits of eating meat. However, out of their concern for beings and the Buddhist teachings, they have taken great steps in this direction. For that reason, all of us who call ourselves their followers need to think about this.

Everyone is really trying their best. For example, in Tibet, in the old days there was no way to live without eating butter, cheese, and meat. Now maybe because of better environmental conditions, or because Tibetans have such strong faith, or because they are stubborn, the monasteries even in many remote places have promised to give up meat. When we think about it, there are many people here in India who generally do not like eating meat. So when those of you who live here give up meat, it is not really anything novel. For people in Tibet, however, to give up meat is a big deal. I would like to say thank you to all of them. We need to keep doing everything we can.

We should contemplate the Mahayana teachings and the precious teachings of the Kagyus. The earlier Kagyu masters gave up meat, took up a vegetarian diet, and developed pure love for sentient beings. If we ourselves can take up even the smallest aspect of this sort of action and start with something small, it will turn out extremely well, I think. So that is what I have to say about giving up meat." - Karmapa Orgyen trinley dorje

December 24, 2007, Translated by Ringu Tulku Rinpoche & Karma Choephel

[karmanyingpo]

“…Last year on the final day of the Kagyu Monlam, I said a few things on the subject of giving up eating meat. Almost all of you probably already know this. It seems some people did not completely understand what I said. For example, some foreign students seemed to think it meant that once you become a student of the Kagyu, meat is not allowed to pass your lips. They told all the meat-eating Kagyupas, “You can’t be a Kagyupa if you eat meat.” I did not say anything that inflammatory. If a Mahayana practitioner, who considers all sentient beings to be like their father or mother, eats the flesh of another being out of carelessness and without any compassion, that is not good. So we need to think about this and pay attention to it. All of us Mahayana practitioners, who accept that all sentient beings have been our mothers and fathers, need to think about this. For that reason, it would be good to decrease the amount of meat that we eat. That is what I said.

I certainly did not say that you are not allowed to eat meat at all. That would be difficult. Whether it is because of previous karma or their present circumstances, some people cannot do without meat. This is how it is, and there’s nothing to do about it. It’s not a problem.

If you have to eat meat, there is a proper way to eat it. Do not just grab it and stuff it into your mouth as soon as it is put on your plate. If first you think carefully about it, meditate on compassion, and recite the names of buddhas or mantras before eating, then it has some positive effects.

When I was explaining this last year, I said that one reason to give up eating meat was for the long life of the lamas. His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, passed through his “obstacle year” according to Tibetan astrology, so it was for his long life. Next year will be his post–obstacle year. I also brought up my own name. On one hand, it may have been out of desperation that I said, “If you do this for my own long life, that would be good.” Some people have asked how it is that their giving up eating meat could bring me a longer life. It’s difficult to give a direct answer to that question.

But if we don’t eat meat, even if we don’t live longer, I think we will live happier lives. If we enjoy the flesh and blood of other beings, then at the time we have to go, we might feel as if this life didn’t turn out so well. We will have carelessly consumed the flesh and blood of other beings. That might happen, right? If we don’t eat meat, life might not be longer, but there is a possibility we might be more satisfied.

Many monasteries in India and Nepal have done such great, positive things as giving up meat and cooking vegetarian food instead. This is a good example for Buddhism in general, and I think it especially becomes Mahayana practice.

In our eyes, such high lamas as Jamgon Rinpoche and Gyaltsap Rinpoche are the living presence of Manjushri and Vajrapani. Out of care for sentient beings, they intend to refrain from eating meat and to become vegetarian. I think that for them to have such an intention is actually a great fortune for all of us sentient beings; it is good fortune for all of their followers.

Some of the other high lamas who are here, Thrangu Rinpoche and Tenga Rinpoche, were present during the time of the previous Karmapa, and they are like the pillars of the teachings. Throughout their lives they have developed strong habits of eating meat. However, out of their concern for beings and the Buddhist teachings, they have taken great steps in this direction. For that reason, all of us who call ourselves their followers need to think about this.

Everyone is really trying their best. For example, in Tibet, in the old days there was no way to live without eating butter, cheese, and meat. Now maybe because of better environmental conditions, or because Tibetans have such strong faith, or because they are stubborn, the monasteries even in many remote places have promised to give up meat. When we think about it, there are many people here in India who generally do not like eating meat. So when those of you who live here give up meat, it is not really anything novel. For people in Tibet, however, to give up meat is a big deal. I would like to say thank you to all of them. We need to keep doing everything we can.

We should contemplate the Mahayana teachings and the precious teachings of the Kagyus. The earlier Kagyu masters gave up meat, took up a vegetarian diet, and developed pure love for sentient beings. If we ourselves can take up even the smallest aspect of this sort of action and start with something small, it will turn out extremely well, I think. So that is what I have to say about giving up meat." - Karmapa Orgyen trinley dorje

December 24, 2007, Translated by Ringu Tulku Rinpoche & Karma Choephel

Wow, speaks with great clarity realism and compassion. A very balanced speech. THanks.

KN

[Tata1]

Totally ignorant here. It would seem to me that meat eating and alcohol consumption are important ritual acts because it's breaking taboos. That would suggest the norm is to be veg and dry. Am I missing something?

Yes. The other reason one eats meat during ganapuja is to benefit the being so he gets a conection towards liberation.

That was the explanation for eating meat in my home. That was from an East Asian perspective.

I dont think i understood you. This is why and how you should eat meat during tsok. Not an east asian thing.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Totally ignorant here. It would seem to me that meat eating and alcohol consumption are important ritual acts because it's breaking taboos. That would suggest the norm is to be veg and dry. Am I missing something?

Yes. The other reason one eats meat during ganapuja is to benefit the being so he gets a conection towards liberation.

That was the explanation for eating meat in my home. That was from an East Asian perspective.

So, if veg was the norm, and meat eating is a ritual taboo violation, why is the meat eating/veg argument so hot in the Tibetan Buddhist circles here? Seems the rules are straight forward.

Because it has never been a hard and fast rule in Tibetan Buddhism to follow a veg diet. Some teachers advocate, some don't at all. There have (and this article is correct insofar as it points this out) always been some advocates and practitioners of vegetarianism in Tibetan religious culture, a vocal but very notable minority as it were, to the best of my knowledge.

“You can’t be a Kagyupa if you eat meat.” I did not say anything that inflammatory. If a Mahayana practitioner, who considers all sentient beings to be like their father or mother, eats the flesh of another being out of carelessness and without any compassion, that is not good. So we need to think about this and pay attention to it. All of us Mahayana practitioners, who accept that all sentient beings have been our mothers and fathers, need to think about this. For that reason, it would be good to decrease the amount of meat that we eat. That is what I said.

See, this simple way is the best way to encourage Buddhists to look at their diets.
This combined with statistics of increased meat consumption over the past 50 years make a compelling case to curtail meat intake in general. There, nothing complicated, no need to kick anyone out of a group, accuse them of murder, etc. I have no idea why there is a chunk of Buddhist vegetarians and vegans who don't understand the above approach, it's much more effective than condemnation, accusing someone else of being cruel for their diet, etc.

It also makes the author of the OP article look blatantly dishonest, frankly.