If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

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Queequeg
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:53 pm You are essentializing something that is not an essence and has no essence.
I'm not. Ordinary karuna has no essence in the same way. I'm just exchanging views through this imperfect medium.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:12 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:53 pm You are essentializing something that is not an essence and has no essence.
I'm not. Ordinary karuna has no essence in the same way. I'm just exchanging views through this imperfect medium.
You said:
Mahakaruna is unaquired...Bodhicitta, too, is unacquired. If it was not there to begin with, it could not be manifest.
To say that something in not acquired is to claim it is innate. To claim something is innate is to claim it is a nature.

Bodhicitta is the desire to attain awakening. Mahāyāna bodhicitta is the desire to attain full buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings. Claiming that bodhicitta is innate or unacquired is a strange claim. This is not the same as the so-called prakṛtīgotra, natural disposition. Natural disposition means simply that we have a mind, and that mind can become inspired to desire awakening when it meets with proper conditions to develop Mahāyāna bodhicitta. But Mahāyāna bodhicitta is by no means innate, and neither is mahākaruna, the compassion which is absolutely free of reference points. A mother's compassion is very much a referential compassion.

Mahākaruna and bodhicitta are both acquired. How? Through training. If they were unacquired, as you claim, no training would be needed to develop them, but this is clear not the case.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:44 pm To say that something in not acquired is to claim it is innate. To claim something is innate is to claim it is a nature.
It could be, but not necessarily. I can see where this is going and you'll have to pardon me that I'm not interested. Please feel free to conclude what you want about my views.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

I'd hate to derail the thread but does anyone have anything about Karma Chagme and vegetarianism, or why tsok in Drikung is mostly vegetarian?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by GrapeLover »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:49 pm I'd hate to derail the thread but does anyone have anything about Karma Chagme and vegetarianism, or why tsok in Drikung is mostly vegetarian?
Karma Chakme's "Comprehensive Critique of Meat" is available in the book "The Faults of Meat" by Geoffrey Barstow.

Here is the conclusion:
For all these reasons, the best option is to perform the holy act of relinquishing all meat. When you perform a ritual feast, use meat with threefold purity in order to guard your samaya. At that time, it is very important simply to not reject meat, alcohol, or dough. Eat only a little, however, an amount equivalent to the leg of an insect. The middle option is to give up meat that was slaughtered for your own sake, or, if you eat other meat, to eat only a little. The least option is to give up the meat of animals killed that day, the meat of animals of a similar species, and human meat. When you do eat it, bless it as divine nectar and consume it as an inner fire offering.
Regarding the least option, he says:
The answer is that such a person must be able to either truly transform the meat into divine nectar or, if they do not transform it into divine nectar, they must be able to transform their body so that they appear as a burial-ground jackal, a tiger, a lion, or the like. After that they can eat. [...] The Vimalaprabhā, the great commentary on the Kālacakra Tantra, explains that if you are unable to turn a tooth into a pearl, a skull-cup into a lotus, meat into sons’ hair, and blood into a heruka deity, then it is unacceptable to eat this. Even if they spend eons trying, ordinary people are unable perform such transformations. Therefore it is widely explained that they should not try to transform these substances into divine nectar by themselves.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

GrapeLover wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:25 pm Karma Chakme's "Comprehensive Critique of Meat" is available in the book "The Faults of Meat" by Geoffrey Barstow.
Thank you! That looks quite interesting.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:38 pm Please feel free to conclude what you want about my views.
At this point, on this point, my conclusion is that your contention was not well thought out.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Malcolm »

GrapeLover wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:25 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:49 pm I'd hate to derail the thread but does anyone have anything about Karma Chagme and vegetarianism, or why tsok in Drikung is mostly vegetarian?
Karma Chakme's "Comprehensive Critique of Meat" is available in the book "The Faults of Meat" by Geoffrey Barstow.

Here is the conclusion:
For all these reasons, the best option is to perform the holy act of relinquishing all meat. When you perform a ritual feast, use meat with threefold purity in order to guard your samaya. At that time, it is very important simply to not reject meat, alcohol, or dough. Eat only a little, however, an amount equivalent to the leg of an insect. The middle option is to give up meat that was slaughtered for your own sake, or, if you eat other meat, to eat only a little. The least option is to give up the meat of animals killed that day, the meat of animals of a similar species, and human meat. When you do eat it, bless it as divine nectar and consume it as an inner fire offering.
Regarding the least option, he says:
The answer is that such a person must be able to either truly transform the meat into divine nectar or, if they do not transform it into divine nectar, they must be able to transform their body so that they appear as a burial-ground jackal, a tiger, a lion, or the like. After that they can eat. [...] The Vimalaprabhā, the great commentary on the Kālacakra Tantra, explains that if you are unable to turn a tooth into a pearl, a skull-cup into a lotus, meat into sons’ hair, and blood into a heruka deity, then it is unacceptable to eat this. Even if they spend eons trying, ordinary people are unable perform such transformations. Therefore it is widely explained that they should not try to transform these substances into divine nectar by themselves.
Yes, this is one opinion. The opinion of my guru is that if you avoid meat and you are Vajrayāna practitioner, your compassion is, as he put it, "miserable."
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by coldbeer »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:26 pm Yes, this is one opinion. The opinion of my guru is that if you avoid meat and you are Vajrayāna practitioner, your compassion is, as he put it, "miserable."
What if a person is "common Mahayana" and they eat meat?
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Natan »

In the case of Achi Chokyi Drolma before she rode off into the sky she gathered her students and made a cadaver appear as a sumptuous feast that all enjoyed thoroughly as the ganachakrapuja. So then... What do you make of that? She is considered by Drikung Kagyu as a guru.
Last edited by Natan on Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

coldbeer wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:55 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:26 pm Yes, this is one opinion. The opinion of my guru is that if you avoid meat and you are Vajrayāna practitioner, your compassion is, as he put it, "miserable."
What if a person is "common Mahayana" and they eat meat?
I think the point is, if one’s compassion is contingent on this or that, if it’s conditional, if it’s triggered by one type of behavior or one type of diet rather than another, even if it is with all good intentions, if it is about how it makes you feel, even if that is a good feeling, or if it makes you think you are being a “good Buddhist” or “oh I am helping these poor creatures’ or whatever, these are all conditionally arising phenomena. That’s not ultimate bodhicitta. That’s not maha-karuna or ‘divine compassion’ if you want to call it that. Sure, it’s good. It’s real good stuff. But it’s not the best stuff, which is compassion without any attachment, without feedback.

The issue, in a sense, has to to with transcending the duality of “self-and-other”. Compassion as an expression of emptiness is just that: there is no self-and-other.

Not everybody is likely to take things to that “level” (it’s not really a ‘level’. It’s not a position superior or inferior to another). Most people are happy with feeling compassionate even if they do very little. Some people do a lot to help others. All of the time, there is a sense of “me” doing it. “Me” not eating meat or whatever.

Very few are spontaneously giving away all the time without a second thought about it.
But to practically exhale unlimited compassion with the same ease and ‘no big deal’ that one exhales air every other moment, that’s the ‘practice of a Bodhisattva’ (this is not a quote from the 37 Practices of a Bodhisattva. I’m just using that as an expression).
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by coldbeer »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:47 pm
coldbeer wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:55 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:26 pm Yes, this is one opinion. The opinion of my guru is that if you avoid meat and you are Vajrayāna practitioner, your compassion is, as he put it, "miserable."
What if a person is "common Mahayana" and they eat meat?
I think the point is, if one’s compassion is contingent on this or that, if it’s conditional, if it’s triggered by one type of behavior or one type of diet rather than another, even if it is with all good intentions, if it is about how it makes you feel, even if that is a good feeling, or if it makes you think you are being a “good Buddhist” or “oh I am helping these poor creatures’ or whatever, these are all conditionally arising phenomena. That’s not ultimate bodhicitta. That’s not maha-karuna or ‘divine compassion’ if you want to call it that. Sure, it’s good. It’s real good stuff. But it’s not the best stuff, which is compassion without any attachment, without feedback.

The issue, in a sense, has to to with transcending the duality of “self-and-other”. Compassion as an expression of emptiness is just that: there is no self-and-other.

Not everybody is likely to take things to that “level” (it’s not really a ‘level’. It’s not a position superior or inferior to another). Most people are happy with feeling compassionate even if they do very little. Some people do a lot to help others. All of the time, there is a sense of “me” doing it. “Me” not eating meat or whatever.

Very few are spontaneously giving away all the time without a second thought about it.
But to practically exhale unlimited compassion with the same ease and ‘no big deal’ that one exhales air every other moment, that’s the ‘practice of a Bodhisattva’ (this is not a quote from the 37 Practices of a Bodhisattva. I’m just using that as an expression).
Good post. As a lowly and inferior spiritual person I don't hold any illusion believing I will accomplish any spiritual attainment in this life. I think if I adopted a vegetarian lifestyle all it would do is delude me into thinking "I am such a nice and compassionate person now" and make my ego stronger. Barf.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

coldbeer wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:20 am As a lowly and inferior spiritual person I don't hold any illusion believing I will accomplish any spiritual attainment in this life.
People shouldn’t think that attainment and realization are beyond anyone’s reach. If that were the case, the Buddhadharma would never have continued for 2,600 years.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:36 am
coldbeer wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:20 am As a lowly and inferior spiritual person I don't hold any illusion believing I will accomplish any spiritual attainment in this life.
People shouldn’t think that attainment and realization are beyond anyone’s reach. If that were the case, the Buddhadharma would never have continued for 2,600 years.
:good: Yup, We all have the same potential, it is diligence where we differ at.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by coldbeer »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:36 am
coldbeer wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:20 am As a lowly and inferior spiritual person I don't hold any illusion believing I will accomplish any spiritual attainment in this life.
People shouldn’t think that attainment and realization are beyond anyone’s reach. If that were the case, the Buddhadharma would never have continued for 2,600 years.
For sure but we all have differing capabilities which is why the dharma has many gates available. I'm most suited for the easy path as nagarjuna calls it.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by SilenceMonkey »

coldbeer wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:20 am I think if I adopted a vegetarian lifestyle all it would do is delude me into thinking "I am such a nice and compassionate person now" and make my ego stronger. Barf.
I think there's a danger in the west for people coming to buddhism, and once they hear teachings on the ultimate nature of things they tend to throw away relative compassion, thinking it is based in duality and is therefore inferior. But as so many great masters keep warning us, this is a big mistake. Until we realize shunyata experientially, how could we throw away situations that can help us foster real compassion? We can use conventional situations to foster real compassion and bodhicitta. We don't have to think, "This is all emptiness... Believing in the reality of this and that would only bolster my ego, so I won't involve myself in such things." How else are we going to foster compassion if not seeing and contemplating the suffering of others?

Relative compassion is MUCH better than no compassion at all. And nondualistic compassion is quite a high view... can we really get there without having any compassion in the first place?

Many great masters of the Mahayana tell us that until we reach the realization of ultimate bodhicitta, we should rely on relative bodhicitta. And if we're doing it properly, the ultimate bodhicitta will be mixed in with the relative. (From Dilgo Khyentse's commentary on the 37 Practices of a Bodhisattva, at the beginning of the section on Bodhicitta)

Vegetarianism shouldn't be about social posturing. It's not about identity of "I'm a vegetarian." Not at all... It's about the animals.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

coldbeer wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:51 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:36 am
coldbeer wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:20 am As a lowly and inferior spiritual person I don't hold any illusion believing I will accomplish any spiritual attainment in this life.
People shouldn’t think that attainment and realization are beyond anyone’s reach. If that were the case, the Buddhadharma would never have continued for 2,600 years.
For sure but we all have differing capabilities which is why the dharma has many gates available. I'm most suited for the easy path as nagarjuna calls it.
I understand your sentiment as I often feel it that way too. However, in buddhism feeling discouraged or inadequate is a form of laziness. While yes, situation is often less than ideal, we might not have much space to do things, we are still capable of great things. That is the simple nature of human beings. Just look at all of the presidents, generals, artists, engineers, teachers, architects, etc etc etc. Every single human can have an amazing impact and the bodhisattva's journey can be started already in this life. And if people with mundane motivations oriented onto this life can manage to be so beloved, or feared, why shouldn't you be capable of doing amazing things maybe just by being a really good man, husband, friend, neighbor by ifusing all of these roles with the boddhisattvic ideals/aspirations? Nobody is talking about flying and changing stone into gold, that's for kids. Realization might just mean that Amitabha actually comes for you and you know it ahead of time.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:40 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:36 am
coldbeer wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:20 am As a lowly and inferior spiritual person I don't hold any illusion believing I will accomplish any spiritual attainment in this life.
People shouldn’t think that attainment and realization are beyond anyone’s reach. If that were the case, the Buddhadharma would never have continued for 2,600 years.
:good: Yup, We all have the same potential, it is diligence where we differ at.
People of all capacities can attain realization. “enlightenment” has become so mythologized that it seems somehow impossible. We hear about this declining age and so on. You may not become a Buddha or even attain the realization of some historic figure. But having a connection to the dharma (an obvious interest) is very rare in this world, and a person who has that should not just ignore that. Buddha’s instructions today are the same as they have always been. Likewise, the afflictions are the same as they have always been. There are people who practice but don’t “really” think realization is possible. That kind of approach can’t possibly work. Knowing it is possible is half way getting there.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by coldbeer »

Inspirational posts, thanks. It is true i am suffering from severe laziness these days and can make better effort. I can start eating more nutritious vegetarian meals, not to feel superior but to make myself feel healthier both mentally and physically with the added benefit of helping the planet in a small miniscule way.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by coldbeer »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:56 am
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:40 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:36 am
People shouldn’t think that attainment and realization are beyond anyone’s reach. If that were the case, the Buddhadharma would never have continued for 2,600 years.
:good: Yup, We all have the same potential, it is diligence where we differ at.
People of all capacities can attain realization. “enlightenment” has become so mythologized that it seems somehow impossible. We hear about this declining age and so on. You may not become a Buddha or even attain the realization of some historic figure. But having a connection to the dharma (an obvious interest) is very rare in this world, and a person who has that should not just ignore that. Buddha’s instructions today are the same as they have always been. Likewise, the afflictions are the same as they have always been. There are people who practice but don’t “really” think realization is possible. That kind of approach can’t possibly work. Knowing it is possible is half way getting there.
It is definitely possible but numerous tibetan masters throughout the ages have strongly encouraged their students to pray for rebirth in sukhavati knowing full well how difficult it can be to attain realization in this defiled saha world.
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