If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

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Queequeg
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Queequeg »

Aryjna wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:16 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:37 pm
Aryjna wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:27 pm
In my opinion, it is a matter of the particular circumstances and intention behind each separate occasion of meat consumption.
Tuesday night. Nothing special. Just a day in the life.
I am not advocating general meat-eating on a regular basis. It just seems pointless to decide never to eat meat.

As for supply and demand, there are arguments against that in the various vegetarian debate threads. There is also the fact that all food is based on the deaths of countless insects etc., as mentioned earlier, and as such it can be more harmful, depending on how the various kinds of animals are bred.
I'm not interested in discussing the morality of vegetarianism either. And even less in the reductio ad absurdam of cause and effect that makes breathing itself an evil of samsara.

I'm trying to understand the practical application of this idea that tantrikas bring merit to beings by eating them.

You wrote, "It is more a case of not rejecting meat, when it is available..."

If you live in a developed nation, meat is never not available. So, are you then saying meat should be consumed at every opportunity? Given a choice, we should forgo every food except meat, if we want to maximize our benefit to other beings, and make sure its a little of everything we can obtain - a little steak with a side of bacon, with chicken and fish dessert.

Admittedly, this is a reductio ad absurdam kind of approach to what you seem to be saying. If there is a cut off point, what is it?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I doubt that’s what he’s saying. The thing is, if you do eat it, there is a way to make it beneficial Dharma wise. For the practical purposes of this argument you could simply view it as the Tantric equivalent of saying prayers over it, etc.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Queequeg »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:31 pm I doubt that’s what he’s saying. The thing is, if you do eat it, there is a way to make it beneficial Dharma wise. For the practical purposes of this argument you could simply view it as the Tantric equivalent of saying prayers over it, etc.
That's fine. Leave the exact process as a black box.

Basically, you seem to be saying, the black box neutralizes any conventional Mahayana type concerns with taking life, and in fact is a means to bring benefit to beings who are consumed.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Aryjna »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:27 pm
Aryjna wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:16 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:37 pm

Tuesday night. Nothing special. Just a day in the life.
I am not advocating general meat-eating on a regular basis. It just seems pointless to decide never to eat meat.

As for supply and demand, there are arguments against that in the various vegetarian debate threads. There is also the fact that all food is based on the deaths of countless insects etc., as mentioned earlier, and as such it can be more harmful, depending on how the various kinds of animals are bred.
I'm not interested in discussing the morality of vegetarianism either. And even less in the reductio ad absurdam of cause and effect that makes breathing itself an evil of samsara.

I'm trying to understand the practical application of this idea that tantrikas bring merit to beings by eating them.

You wrote, "It is more a case of not rejecting meat, when it is available..."

If you live in a developed nation, meat is never not available. So, are you then saying meat should be consumed at every opportunity? Given a choice, we should forgo every food except meat, if we want to maximize our benefit to other beings, and make sure its a little of everything we can obtain - a little steak with a side of bacon, with chicken and fish dessert.

Admittedly, this is a reductio ad absurdam kind of approach to what you seem to be saying. If there is a cut off point, what is it?
Given the "powdered insects" quality of all foods, there is no need to eat meat specifically in order to benefit beings by eating. The main point is that there is no real difference one way or the other. You harm countless beings when you eat meat and when you eat vegetables, and you can benefit again these beings whatever you may be eating. So, why be strictly vegetarian?

As for "when available", it could be a party and there is a pile of meat on the table.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Norwegian »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:36 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:31 pm I doubt that’s what he’s saying. The thing is, if you do eat it, there is a way to make it beneficial Dharma wise. For the practical purposes of this argument you could simply view it as the Tantric equivalent of saying prayers over it, etc.
That's fine. Leave the exact process as a black box.

Basically, you seem to be saying, the black box neutralizes any conventional Mahayana type concerns with taking life, and in fact is a means to bring benefit to beings who are consumed.
Since you do not practice Vajrayana or Dzogchen, this isn't for you. As His Holiness the Dalai Lama responded to the Christian who asked him about emptiness: "None of your business."

This is not to be rude or to be an asshole, it's simply that you do not practice these paths, and have not received these instructions. And going into detail isn't really fit for public discussion. And certainly not with someone who haven't received such instructions.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Aryjna wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:16 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:37 pm
Aryjna wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:27 pm
In my opinion, it is a matter of the particular circumstances and intention behind each separate occasion of meat consumption.
Tuesday night. Nothing special. Just a day in the life.
I am not advocating general meat-eating on a regular basis. It just seems pointless to decide never to eat meat.

As for supply and demand, there are arguments against that in the various vegetarian debate threads. There is also the fact that all food is based on the deaths of countless insects etc., as mentioned earlier, and as such it can be more harmful, depending on how the various kinds of animals are bred.
If we're talking about animals that aren't grass fed (ie. factory farming), there is much more destruction of small animals from the agriculture involved with raising animals. The reason being that cows and pigs eat much more than we do. I can't remember the source, but I've heard that the plant cultivation for animal feed is 7 times as much as would feed humans (measuring pound of plants vs. pound of beef). Most of this is from monocropping corn or soy.

Here is a study that says "For every 1 kg of high-quality animal protein produced, livestock are fed about 6 kg of plant protein."
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/7 ... 4690010#T1

And an article on the environmental effects of animal agriculture:
https://www.onegreenplanet.org/environm ... struction/
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Is it okay for vajrayana practitioners to eat meat in any other context than tsok?
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:36 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:31 pm I doubt that’s what he’s saying. The thing is, if you do eat it, there is a way to make it beneficial Dharma wise. For the practical purposes of this argument you could simply view it as the Tantric equivalent of saying prayers over it, etc.
That's fine. Leave the exact process as a black box.

Basically, you seem to be saying, the black box neutralizes any conventional Mahayana type concerns with taking life, and in fact is a means to bring benefit to beings who are consumed.
Kind of. I mean, firstly there is not now, nor has there even be agreement across the Mahayana that eating meat is taking life. That has never been a definitive teaching for all Mahayana Buddhists.

But yes there are methods in Vajrayana to take acts like eating and make them beneficial, in this case specifically to do with consuming the flesh of a sentient being. Again if you want a more "basic" illustration of the same concept just look at Thihc Nhat Hanh or whoever saying you should do prayers over your meat if you're going to eat it. While the nuts and bolts may differ substantially, the basic concept is close enough for your question.
Norwegian wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:44 pm
Since you do not practice Vajrayana or Dzogchen, this isn't for you. As His Holiness the Dalai Lama responded to the Christian who asked him about emptiness: "None of your business."

This is not to be rude or to be an asshole, it's simply that you do not practice these paths, and have not received these instructions. And going into detail isn't really fit for public discussion. And certainly not with someone who haven't received such instructions.
In all fairness, if people don't want the subject broached by non-Vajrayana practitioners, they shouldn't be bringing it up in a thread like this in the first place. If they do, they can reasonably expect that those practitioners will at least have some questions.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:57 pm Is it okay for vajrayana practitioners to eat meat in any other context than tsok?
It varies from teacher to teacher. Some very much advocate vegetarianism, some don't spend any time at all on diet. None of my main teachers have advocated for a vegetarian lifestyle, but I have taken teachings with others who do. I think HHDL , HHK17, and others have popularized the issue a bit, so it gets more traction than it used to.

It's not uncommon at all to find people even within the same lineage with very different takes on the subject.

You also have to understand that Tibetan Buddhist teachers teach at different "levels", so lifestyle advice for a Vajrayana or Dzogchen practitioner will not necessarily be the same as advice as it would be for someone practicing at the level of the Bodhisattvayana. This is not an explicitly stated thing always, but I've seen it enough to know that that is what is going on in some cases.

In the end, even from the outside this can seen as a very common sense thing, because everyone has a different capacities and circumstances.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Norwegian »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:58 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:36 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:31 pm I doubt that’s what he’s saying. The thing is, if you do eat it, there is a way to make it beneficial Dharma wise. For the practical purposes of this argument you could simply view it as the Tantric equivalent of saying prayers over it, etc.
That's fine. Leave the exact process as a black box.

Basically, you seem to be saying, the black box neutralizes any conventional Mahayana type concerns with taking life, and in fact is a means to bring benefit to beings who are consumed.
Kind of. I mean, firstly there is not now, nor has there even be agreement across the Mahayana that eating meat is taking life. That has never been a definitive teaching for all Mahayana Buddhists.

But yes there are methods in Vajrayana to take acts like eating and make them beneficial, in this case specifically to do with consuming the flesh of a sentient being. Again if you want a more "basic" illustration of the same concept just look at Thihc Nhat Hanh or whoever saying you should do prayers over your meat if you're going to eat it. While the nuts and bolts may differ substantially, the basic concept is close enough.
Norwegian wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:44 pm
Since you do not practice Vajrayana or Dzogchen, this isn't for you. As His Holiness the Dalai Lama responded to the Christian who asked him about emptiness: "None of your business."

This is not to be rude or to be an asshole, it's simply that you do not practice these paths, and have not received these instructions. And going into detail isn't really fit for public discussion. And certainly not with someone who haven't received such instructions.
In all fairness, if people don't want the subject broached by non-Vajrayana practitioners, they shouldn't be bringing it up in a thread like this in the first place. If they do, they can reasonably expect that those practitioners will at least have some questions.
Well, people talk about mantra, yidam practice, Mahamudra, Dzogchen, and all kinds of things, and there are certain things can be said. Other things however cannot be said. And in this context you can say that Vajrayana and Dzogchen have methods that makes it possible to eat meat, in a way that is positive for the animal that the meat belonged to. Talking about those methods, how they work, how they are done, their reasoning, going into detail, and so on is not good.

This is why at a certain point, if someone on a forum like this are asking and having doubts about these things, thinking it doesn't sound reasonable, comparing it with "Indulgences the Catholic Church was selling in the Middle Ages" and so on, it's basically a "this is not for you" and a "take it or leave it" situation.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Tata1 »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:57 pm Is it okay for vajrayana practitioners to eat meat in any other context than tsok?
All meals should be tsok.

That said its way easier for me to eat meat properly in a ritual contexr because im a shitty practitioner
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Queequeg »

Norwegian wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:44 pm
:roll:
Aryjna wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:42 pm Given the "powdered insects" quality of all foods, there is no need to eat meat specifically in order to benefit beings by eating. The main point is that there is no real difference one way or the other. You harm countless beings when you eat meat and when you eat vegetables, and you can benefit again these beings whatever you may be eating. So, why be strictly vegetarian?

As for "when available", it could be a party and there is a pile of meat on the table.
That is not how karma works, as I understand it. When I inadvertently step on an ant, killing it, that is not karma. Picking out a nice cut of steak at the butcher counter, that's a different story. Similarly, if I have no choice but to take what is offered to sustain myself, that's one thing. Making a bee line for the meat platter at a party to be consumed between exchanges of casual conversation that serves no purpose but diversion...

I get what you're saying. Your categories are not convincing to me.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:08 pm
Norwegian wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:44 pm
:roll:
Aryjna wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:42 pm Given the "powdered insects" quality of all foods, there is no need to eat meat specifically in order to benefit beings by eating. The main point is that there is no real difference one way or the other. You harm countless beings when you eat meat and when you eat vegetables, and you can benefit again these beings whatever you may be eating. So, why be strictly vegetarian?

As for "when available", it could be a party and there is a pile of meat on the table.
That is not how karma works, as I understand it. When I inadvertently step on an ant, killing it, that is not karma. Picking out a nice cut of steak at the butcher counter, that's a different story. Similarly, if I have no choice but to take what is offered to sustain myself, that's one thing. Making a bee line for the meat platter at a party to be consumed between exchanges of casual conversation that serves no purpose but diversion...

I get what you're saying. Your categories are not convincing to me.
For most practitioners this will all come back to whether the meat is pure in three ways, to the sravakayana rules. Some argue it is not because there is economic participation, and some argue that buying meat at the grocery store is removed enough from paying someone to kill it for you that it passes the smell test. The question of how much moral culpability exists for buying a steak is actually kind of a tough one, not cut and dried. Now, picking out an animal to be slaughtered for you and asking someone to do so, that is much clearer.

That is for non-Vajrayana practitioners. For those that are Dzogchen or Vajrayana practitioners, advice tends to center less around modifying one's lifestyle choices than it does transforming one's existing lifetstyle, warts and all into the Dharma. As has been mentioned, some of this stuff we just can't talk about much, but the bolded part is the gist of how my most important teachers in Vajrayana has approached lifestyle. It's not for everyone, obviously, and some of these things are not a good fit for people who are fixated on "pure" and "impure" things being irreconcilable, including lifestyle decisions.

That's not to be rude, but that is a particular personality thing, there are also Vajrayana methods for those people, but for the most part once we get to the kind of concepts being mentioned, we are past the sort of teaching that is just about just following rules, it gets a little squishier than that.

You have to understand that at that level of the teachings Vajrayana is about transformation of one's circumstances and kleshas, so in contrast to the Mahayana, you do not particularly try to create antidotes to things or alter your external external circumstances as a main practice, except at the lowest level of Tantric teachings. That said, all Vajrayana practitioners also practice at least some at the level of the Mahayana, and so some teachers also will teach at that level in places, and have different advice in other areas.

Again I'm sure this seems inconsistent to some, and that's great, they can practice whatever they want and don't need to buy into it. Again the common sense response here is that not everyone can follow the same rules, nor should they in particular - including diet, because every Dharma practitioners circumstances and capacity are entirely different. 84,000 doors and all that.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Aryjna »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:52 pm
Aryjna wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:16 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:37 pm

Tuesday night. Nothing special. Just a day in the life.
I am not advocating general meat-eating on a regular basis. It just seems pointless to decide never to eat meat.

As for supply and demand, there are arguments against that in the various vegetarian debate threads. There is also the fact that all food is based on the deaths of countless insects etc., as mentioned earlier, and as such it can be more harmful, depending on how the various kinds of animals are bred.
If we're talking about animals that aren't grass fed (ie. factory farming), there is much more destruction of small animals from the agriculture involved with raising animals. The reason being that cows and pigs eat much more than we do. I can't remember the source, but I've heard that the plant cultivation for animal feed is 7 times as much as would feed humans (measuring pound of plants vs. pound of beef). Most of this is from monocropping corn or soy.

Here is a study that says "For every 1 kg of high-quality animal protein produced, livestock are fed about 6 kg of plant protein."
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/7 ... 4690010#T1

And an article on the environmental effects of animal agriculture:
https://www.onegreenplanet.org/environm ... struction/
These are good arguments.
Queequeg wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:08 pm That is not how karma works, as I understand it. When I inadvertently step on an ant, killing it, that is not karma. Picking out a nice cut of steak at the butcher counter, that's a different story. Similarly, if I have no choice but to take what is offered to sustain myself, that's one thing. Making a bee line for the meat platter at a party to be consumed between exchanges of casual conversation that serves no purpose but diversion...

I get what you're saying. Your categories are not convincing to me.
Everyone is responsible for themselves, so when and how one will eat meat and what comes out of it will depend on the circumstances.

I just find that the line drawn for meat is a bit arbitrary. Avoid the meat platter but eat bread? One can survive by picking out leftovers from the garbage. By doing that, one supports no food industry and as such has no part in the whole thing. Or, a little less extreme, one can research what particular food is the least harmful to animals and the environment and then eat only that. But, almost none actually does that.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Queequeg »

I am sorry for coloring my comments with irreverent humor. I get it that questioning these kinds of practices can be personal.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:58 pm Kind of. I mean, firstly there is not now, nor has there even be agreement across the Mahayana that eating meat is taking life. That has never been a definitive teaching for all Mahayana Buddhists.

But yes there are methods in Vajrayana to take acts like eating and make them beneficial, in this case specifically to do with consuming the flesh of a sentient being. Again if you want a more "basic" illustration of the same concept just look at Thihc Nhat Hanh or whoever saying you should do prayers over your meat if you're going to eat it. While the nuts and bolts may differ substantially, the basic concept is close enough for your question.
I'm not aware of any question in Mahayana that eating meat involves taking life. By definition, meat is what's left over when a sentient being in either the human or animal realms dies. The distinctions come with the karma, the intentional activity, involved with the consumption of meat. Not taking life is one of those cardinal Mahayana precepts. There are considerations of necessity, also. But again, not interested in discussing the morality.

What I find curious is the way that the ritual rules around consuming meat seem to be presented in a way that conveniently justifies developed world consumer choices. I would expect that to really practice tsok, it really demands a very high degree of seriousness, and the casualness of picking out a weekday night dinner seems incongruent.

Maybe your comments that appeared while I was typing this address this question -

"transforming one's existing lifetstyle, warts and all into the Dharma."

First, let me respond to this refrain that keeps popping up - "You're not a vajrayana practitioner". With respect to the forum in which this discussion is taking place, that seems to be a uniquely Tibetan retort. If any of you has been to Japan, meat is consumed in almost every meal, and there are black boxes to deal with it that sound pretty much like what you guys are describing in your practices. There are also strict Buddhist vegetarian diets, which are, by the way, amazing culinary experiences if you get a chance. Shojin ryori, the cuisine developed by Shingon monks on Mt. Koya - a center of exclusively Vajrayana practice - is delicious. And vegan. My point is, transforming one's existing lifestyle into Dharma is not a uniquely Tibetan Vajrayana thing.

That said, you seem to be suggesting that transforming one's existing lifestyle eliminates the necessity of considering the impact of one's activities. If we do it right, then raping and pillaging is just as valid a path, so long as its done in a manner that transforms it into dharma. Is there no compulsion toward the modification of behavior? Say an incantation, cast a spell, and the karma of a psychopathic serial killer becomes acts of kindness.

If I'm peaking too far inside the black box, just say so.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Giovanni »

There is a problem. You cannot take one practice from a whole view of life and understand it separately . The discussion about meat eating that happen within Vajrayana have context. Obsessing about one aspect does not help anyone and does not bring light. To fully understand there is no choice but to go for Vajrayana Refuge. Until then it’s talk talk talk.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:48 pm

I'm not aware of any question in Mahayana that eating meat involves taking life. By definition, meat is what's left over when a sentient being in either the human or animal realms dies. The distinctions come with the karma, the intentional activity, involved with the consumption of meat. Not taking life is one of those cardinal Mahayana precepts. There are considerations of necessity, also. But again, not interested in discussing the morality.
There is no universal agreement amongst Mahayana practitioners or teachers on vegetarianism and the first precept. This doesn't even need to be debated, it is just fact.
What I find curious is the way that the ritual rules around consuming meat seem to be presented in a way that conveniently justifies developed world consumer choices. I would expect that to really practice tsok, it really demands a very high degree of seriousness, and the casualness of picking out a weekday night dinner seems incongruent.
Actually, modern veganism and vegetarianism (at least as practiced in the frist world) are very much "developed world" consumer choices, and ones which are not always as harmless as they are sometimes presented.
First, let me respond to this refrain that keeps popping up - "You're not a vajrayana practitioner". With respect to the forum in which this discussion is taking place, that seems to be a uniquely Tibetan retort. If any of you has been to Japan, meat is consumed in almost every meal, and there are black boxes to deal with it that sound pretty much like what you guys are describing in your practices. There are also strict Buddhist vegetarian diets, which are, by the way, amazing culinary experiences if you get a chance. Shojin ryori, the cuisine developed by Shingon monks on Mt. Koya - a center of exclusively Vajrayana practice - is delicious. And vegan. My point is, transforming one's existing lifestyle into Dharma is not a uniquely Tibetan Vajrayana thing.
Hmm well, I'm not gonna be in the business of meta-defending my "retorts", accept them or don't, I have a lot of confidence in my practice and don't feel the need to justify it beyond being willing to have a friendly conversation that might explain some things to people outside of Vajrayana.

Shingon AFAIK practices at a different level of Tantra, I believe most of their practices are Kriya, and for Kriya practices indeed external modification and purification is part of deal. So, in this particular instance it is a poor comparison to what we are talking about within Tibetan Buddhism. There are of course, plenty of Tibetan teachers and practitioners who do similar things - but it is not universal, and likely never will be due to the nature of Vajrayana. I have taken teachings with teachers who are fairly strict vegetarians. My own main teachers don't care much, and tend to give a different kind of advice altogether. There is nothing wrong with the first category of teacher, I just don't consider their advice particularly applicable to me because I follow the advice primarily of my root Guru, and the secondarily of the other close teachers I have.

That said, I feel like there is a good argument just conventionally to reduce one's meat consumption, so I have. I also spent chunks of my life as vegetarian, so it's not some foreign thing to me. In fact, I am a kick-ass vegetarian cook.
That said, you seem to be suggesting that transforming one's existing lifestyle eliminates the necessity of considering the impact of one's activities. If we do it right, then raping and pillaging is just as valid a path, so long as its done in a manner that transforms it into dharma. Is there no compulsion toward the modification of behavior? Say an incantation, cast a spell, and the karma of a psychopathic serial killer becomes acts of kindness.
Sure of course, we do not just do whatever we want and should pay attention to our conduct, there's no need to bring up these hyperbolic examples. I also covered this question by saying that many Vajryana practitioners start with, and typically retain at least -some- of the common Mahayana viewpoint and teachings.

Here's a theoretical example that hopefully simplifies things:

Jane Vajra is 49 years old, a Vajrayana practitioner and single Mom. She has an ongoing issue with uterine fibroids that cause anemia, two teenage kids to look after, and a busy job as a social worker. She tried vegetarianism for a few years but found both that focus on diet was a pain in the ass due to logistics - shopping and cooking for her kids who want to eat meat, and that due to her anemia, it wasn't a bad idea to have some beef every now and then in her diet.

For Jane, the Vajrayana methods allow her to fold these life circumstances into her practice, instead of it just being a random act. Similarly, for Jane, ideas about hard and fast external rules on diet simply do not fit her life situation - her energies are likely better spent elsewhere. She can work with her present circumstances, but causing herself the additionally difficulty of living a vegetarian lifestyle arguably does not pass a cost/benefit analysis of what is most beneficial for her, her family, or her Dharma practice. Similarly, a bunch of hoity-toit Buddhists or college vegan Buddhist activists criticizing Jane's decision to not focus on a vegetarian diet are just being unrealistic and judgemental.

That is an ultra simplified example, but an easy to follow one that illustrates how this concept plays out in daily life, that involves no need to explaining the mechanics of Vajrayana practice or anything like that. There is no one set of circumstances for Dharma practice, and therefore no one argument that applies to all practitioners, certainly not on something as circumstance - dependent and complex as dietary choice in the modern world.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:48 pm What I find curious is the way that the ritual rules around consuming meat seem to be presented in a way that conveniently justifies developed world consumer choices. I would expect that to really practice tsok, it really demands a very high degree of seriousness, and the casualness of picking out a weekday night dinner seems incongruent.
It seems to me like one would have to be a very good practitioner for one's prayers to send the deceased animals one is eating to a pure land...
Last edited by SilenceMonkey on Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:24 pm It seems to me like one would have to be a very good practitioner for one's prayers to send the deceased animals one is eating to a pure land...
Even having such an aspiration is better than not having it in the first place.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: If You Eat Meat You Are Not a Kagyupa - Karmapas and strict vegetarianism

Post by GrapeLover »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:24 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:48 pm What I find curious is the way that the ritual rules around consuming meat seem to be presented in a way that conveniently justifies developed world consumer choices. I would expect that to really practice tsok, it really demands a very high degree of seriousness, and the casualness of picking out a weekday night dinner seems incongruent.
It seems to me like one would have to be a very good practitioner for one's prayers to send the deceased animals one is eating to a pure land...
I think this is along the lines of Chatral Rinpoche’s position, that it definitely is valid for siddhas to eat meat and do such things (just like some of the mahasiddhas could “get away with” directly killing fish and insects because they could liberate them thereby) but most ordinary practitioners don’t have any business thinking they’re doing enough good to offset the negativity of eating meat. Just the position of one teacher etc ofc. Personally I eat meat just because I am lazy, in the knowledge that I’m acting counter to Mahayana sutra in doing so.

Speaking about everyday meat eating as opposed to tsok
Last edited by GrapeLover on Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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