Deity as Yidam, Protector, Guru, etc.

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Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Deity as Yidam, Protector, Guru, etc.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

There's another thread where the question is about a deity's role as either Yidam, Protector, Guru, etc. I've always thought the distinctions to be moot. At least it says something like that in my Chenrezig sadhana. And somewhat inspired by my Nyingma exposure, aren't they all just the Guru anyway?
So two questions:
1. What difference is there in terms of doing the practice?
2. What difference does it make in terms of the result of doing the practice?

I know this is really dumb, but, like I always said, I'm just a dilettante.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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明安 Myoan
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Re: Deity as Yidam, Protector, Guru, etc.

Post by 明安 Myoan »

One factor might be what you need at the time.
Namu Amida Butsu
Soma999
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Re: Deity as Yidam, Protector, Guru, etc.

Post by Soma999 »

My perceptions if it can help you :

The Yidam are quiet « general ». They will help you, more as a consequence of connecting with their beneficial energies.

Protectors can act for specific tasks. They can do very specialised tasks, help you also in your personal life (depending on the protectors of course).

The guru which is the sanskrit for lama awaken you to the nature of mind. Guru is the principle which removes the darkness of ignorance. It is external, internal... and there is the guru in life...
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bryandavis
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Re: Deity as Yidam, Protector, Guru, etc.

Post by bryandavis »

How I see it...

The outer guru is the mirror that allows us to see our nature.
The guru is the source of all blessings, inspiration, aspiration and the like.
The guru empowers us into a path of a yidam, which is also the realzation of ones own true condition.
The yidam is said to be the source of all siddhis, mundane Sindhis arise from our meditative absorptions of various depths,
The ultimate Sindhi is within the domain of the great vehicles aspiration to benefit all others,
When we actualize our Rigpa, we have seen the guru, so again the yidam is none other than the guru.
Deity as protector such as Kila or Jampal Shinje, is merely requesting or focusing on a specific quality or need,
perhaps a gross circumstance of body, speech or mind, or a secret circumstance.
In the end its all the sport of awakening.
A Guru is like the coach, A yidam is offense, a protecter is defense, but in the end there is one team.
Perhaps Dakinis are the cheerleaders.
fckw
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Re: Deity as Yidam, Protector, Guru, etc.

Post by fckw »

Just some thoughts, this is not an academically correct answer.

Guru is typically a nirmanakaya form, i.e. a historical human figure such as Vimalamitra, Padmasambhava or Yeshe Tsogyal.
Yidam is typically a sambhogakaya form, i.e not a historical human figure.
Dakini seems to be usually a sambhogakaya form, sometimes also nirmanakaya (again, such as Yeshe Tsogyal). In theory, there could also exist dakas, but I have never seen such a sadhana.
Whether or not such a thing as a dharmakaya yidam exists can probably be disputed. We can argue that e.g. Zhitro is a dharmakaya yidam, or we can argue that it's actually just a reference to dharmakaya, since everything that appears as form (such as the visual appearance of Zhitro) can by definition not be same as dharmakaya. But that's already quite a bit of philosophical hair splitting.
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conebeckham
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Re: Deity as Yidam, Protector, Guru, etc.

Post by conebeckham »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:07 pm There's another thread where the question is about a deity's role as either Yidam, Protector, Guru, etc. I've always thought the distinctions to be moot. At least it says something like that in my Chenrezig sadhana. And somewhat inspired by my Nyingma exposure, aren't they all just the Guru anyway?
So two questions:
1. What difference is there in terms of doing the practice?
2. What difference does it make in terms of the result of doing the practice?

I know this is really dumb, but, like I always said, I'm just a dilettante.
Devotion to the Lama is key. One can view all roots as Lama, for sure, but normally it's a Guru figure one focuses on with devotion.
Yidams are supplicated, and devotion is also important, but the key to yidam practice is Divine Pride and Carrying on the Path.
As for protectors, it depends...but I personally approach this with the attitude of "requests and fulfillment." In some sense, protectors are "other" than guru or yidam, or manifestations of potential activity outside the realm of one's personal experience (as yidam) or one's longing and devotion (to the Guru). they can be reflections of one's Guru or Yidam, as well.

These are very subtle distinctions.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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tony_montana
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Re: Deity as Yidam, Protector, Guru, etc.

Post by tony_montana »

bryandavis wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:50 am How I see it...


A Guru is like the coach, A yidam is offense, a protecter is defense, but in the end there is one team.
Perhaps Dakinis are the cheerleaders.
:twothumbsup: Absolutely love this!! Helpful in getting perspective.

Dakinis seem pretty gangsta too though!
Malcolm
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Re: Deity as Yidam, Protector, Guru, etc.

Post by Malcolm »

fckw wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:47 pmtheory, there could also exist dakas, but I have never seen such a sadhana.
Viras = dakas. All male deities like Hevajra, etc are also dakas. Then there is the Cakrasamvara explanatory tantra, the Vajradaka., etc,
fckw
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Re: Deity as Yidam, Protector, Guru, etc.

Post by fckw »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:30 pm
fckw wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:47 pmtheory, there could also exist dakas, but I have never seen such a sadhana.
Viras = dakas. All male deities like Hevajra, etc are also dakas. Then there is the Cakrasamvara explanatory tantra, the Vajradaka., etc,
Ah, good point, I did not consider it from that perspective.
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