Yes, since Tsonglkhapa insisted that one only refutes something, inherent existence, that does not exist even conventionally, like the child of a barren women.PeterC wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:21 amIs this what Gendun Chopel criticized when he said that Tsonkhapa's formulation of the object of negation resulted in a completely pointless refutation?
Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
In that Tsongkhapa accepts a limited validity to interdependent phenomena? Shentong accepts complete validity of a reality devoid of the Dependent Nature (appearances).Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:07 amIt’s still a kind of gzhan stong.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:46 amThat’s a reasonable way to teach emptiness if you want people to continue looking both ways before crossing the street.It means that Tsongkhapa also argued for a kind of extrinsic emptiness. Tables aren’t empty of tables, they are only empty of inherent existence.
But it’s not a point worth pursuing.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
......but if one is a barren woman imagining her fictitious child, then perhaps it is not quite so pointless.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:44 amYes, since Tsonglkhapa insisted that one only refutes something, inherent existence, that does not exist even conventionally, like the child of a barren women.
Also: if tables are empty of inherent existence, then they are necessarily also empty of being tables.
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
No, in that tables are empty of something other than the table. Tables are not empty of relative existence, only ultimate existence, which is something other than the table, hence, inverted gzhan stong.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:14 am In that Tsongkhapa accepts a limited validity to interdependent phenomena?
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Okay. Got it.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:55 pmNo, in that tables are empty of something other than the table. Tables are not empty of relative existence, only ultimate existence, which is something other than the table, hence, inverted gzhan stong.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:14 am In that Tsongkhapa accepts a limited validity to interdependent phenomena?
Cute.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Arguably, Tsongkhapa’s Madhyamaka can be seen as an overreaction gzhan stong, Tsongkhapa’s teacher decried gzhan stong as basically nonBuddhist.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:27 pmOkay. Got it.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:55 pmNo, in that tables are empty of something other than the table. Tables are not empty of relative existence, only ultimate existence, which is something other than the table, hence, inverted gzhan stong.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:14 am In that Tsongkhapa accepts a limited validity to interdependent phenomena?
Cute.
Other Sakya Lamas like Rongton and Gorampa had a more level head, considering it a transitional teaching from Yogacara to pure Madhyamaka, I.e higher than yogacara, lower than Madhyamaka.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Yep. That’s the accusation.Arguably, Tsongkhapa’s Madhyamaka can be seen as an overreaction gzhan stong, Tsongkhapa’s teacher decried gzhan stong as basically nonBuddhist.
Now that idea I hadn’t heard before.Other Sakya Lamas like Rongton and Gorampa had a more level head, considering it a transitional teaching from Yogacara to pure Madhyamaka, I.e higher than yogacara, lower than Madhyamaka.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
You weren't paying attention, I have stated this many times before.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:28 pmNow that idea I hadn’t heard before.Arguably, Tsongkhapa’s Madhyamaka can be seen as an overreaction gzhan stong, Tsongkhapa’s teacher decried gzhan stong as basically kya Lamas like Rongton and Gorampa had a more level head, considering it a transitional teaching from Yogacara to pure Madhyamaka, I.e higher than yogacara, lower than Madhyamaka.
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
These kinds of interpretations remind me of - going the other way - Gelug strawmans of Dzogchenpas 'endlessly muttering Hum and Phet', never going beyond some middling stage of shamatha, and mistaking that for buddhahood.
It is true, that some Dzogchenpas end up in such a place. But this is not a very good critique of the view or tradition or practice, because some also do realise the true nature of their mind and attain buddhahood.
So, to your actual claim: one could perhaps arrive at that by reading, with a critical posture from outside the tradition. But never by listening to an actual Gelug teaching on Madhyamaka. I've never heard any Gelugpa negate intrinsic existence only to discover the thing remains.....
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
So mere existence is negated? It isn't left over?
What about "Not existing in the ultimate, not not existing the relative?" This after all is Tsongkhapa's famous formulation of the negation of existence and nonexistence.
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
What's left over is just the dependent designation 'table' imputed on dependently co-arisen causes and conditions. i.e. merely labelled.
If some conventional thing is found to be merely labelled, then it does not somehow or other still remain!
However, I can see why people ascribe a 'basis' to the Gelug view - one can get there, metaphysically. And I think a lot of the contemporary scholar-philosophers - cowherders if you know them - kind of fall into this.
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
I mean, if the object of Madhyamaka critique/negation is not svabhava, then what else could it possibly be?
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Svabhava entails the grasping to existence. If it is negated, so too is the grasping to existence.
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
It doesn't show this.
Only in the cartoon Gelug presentation.....where this is all and only a philosophy glass bead game.
"You've left existence untouched!"
Well, no. If something is dependently arisen, it has never existed. So, seeing appearances as dependent arisings after the negation of svabhava in no way implies existence.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
I’m not sure, but I am of the belief Gelugpas think it does imply a provisional existence. And they are criticized for it. But I’ve been wrong before.It doesn't show this.
Only in the cartoon Gelug presentation.....where this is all and only a philosophy glass bead game.
"You've left existence untouched!"
Well, no. If something is dependently arisen, it has never existed. So, seeing appearances as dependent arisings after the negation of svabhava in no way implies existence.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Well, everyone eats their provisional lunch, don't they?Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:18 amI’m not sure, but I am of the belief Gelugpas think it does imply a provisional existence. And they are criticized for it. But I’ve been wrong before.It doesn't show this.
Only in the cartoon Gelug presentation.....where this is all and only a philosophy glass bead game.
"You've left existence untouched!"
Well, no. If something is dependently arisen, it has never existed. So, seeing appearances as dependent arisings after the negation of svabhava in no way implies existence.
These are practical matters.