Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

So you think that Gorampa and Gendun Chopel were too dumb to understand Tsonkhapa, but you're smarter than them and you get it?
I’ve met Gelugpas I believe were enlightened. So whatever they did to get that way must be pretty okay.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Giovanni
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Giovanni »

This is football fan Dharma. Cheering for our side. Not analysis of doctrine in deep. When we define ourselves by loyalty to the group we have a problem.
PeterC
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by PeterC »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:53 am
So you think that Gorampa and Gendun Chopel were too dumb to understand Tsonkhapa, but you're smarter than them and you get it?
I’ve met Gelugpas I believe were enlightened. So whatever they did to get that way must be pretty okay.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Sure, so have I. But I follow the position of several masters who held that the analytical position you hold is not particularly important vs. the experiential realization you gain from practice. I don't think philosophy is the cause of realization. At most it serves to eliminate gross wrong views. But even if I thought Tsonkhapa got it all completely wrong - and I'm not saying I do - I would never be dismissive of his work. That seems exceedingly arrogant in my opinion.
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

cloudburst wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:41 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:07 am
Not below the path of seeing.
not totally, no, same as every other method.
Malcolm wrote: There are many other faults of this monopole negation. You can read Gorampa , Ganden Chopel, Mipham etc., yourself and discover what they are.
I have discovered what these authors believe they are, I dont find them impressive. The supposed faults, that is. Mipham I enjoy quite a bit.

The truth is, Je Tsongkhapa's method is perfect, but if you are ideologically invested in not seeing it, you wont see it.
Tsongkhapa’s approach to Madhyamaka is ok, it just has some holes, and one of those is the monopole negation. No Gelugpa has ever successfully rebutted Gorampa’s critique of Tsongkhapa’s novelties, but we’ve had this discussion before. And Tsongkhapa has even been challenged within his own school.

Mipham largely bases his arguments on Gorampa.

Now, what does any of this have to do with the OP?
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conebeckham
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by conebeckham »

I'll be brief.
Some Kagyu teachers teach Shentong. But most Kagyu teachers will tell you that Mahamudra, and Dzogchen, are experiential paths, and not philosophical systems. Even Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso was clear in this regard.

Kagyu teachers, like many Dzogchen teachers (and that includes Kagyu teachers who teach Dzogpa Chenpo), stress the experiential paths. It is far better to have an experience that, for instance, "all phenomena are mind" (to use just one key Mahamudra point of praxis) than to become intellectually involved in arguments about ontology.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Kagyu teachers will tell you that Mahamudra, and Dzogchen, are experiential paths, and not philosophical systems.
I thought that was universally accepted among all traditions. However on the internet it’s easy to post about ideas and problematic to post about experiences—if you even have any.
Even Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso was clear in this regard.
In his “Progressive Stages” he makes the point that all types of Mahayana claim to be able to sit in uncontrived emptiness. I’ll listen to somebody that has properly studied emptiness, but I’ll follow someone who can sit in it.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Giovanni
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Giovanni »

conebeckham wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:50 pm I'll be brief.
Some Kagyu teachers teach Shentong. But most Kagyu teachers will tell you that Mahamudra, and Dzogchen, are experiential paths, and not philosophical systems. Even Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso was clear in this regard.

Kagyu teachers, like many Dzogchen teachers (and that includes Kagyu teachers who teach Dzogpa Chenpo), stress the experiential paths. It is far better to have an experience that, for instance, "all phenomena are mind" (to use just one key Mahamudra point of praxis) than to become intellectually involved in arguments about ontology.
👍. The sound of real. So welcome.
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conebeckham
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by conebeckham »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:00 pm
Kagyu teachers will tell you that Mahamudra, and Dzogchen, are experiential paths, and not philosophical systems.
I thought that was universally accepted among all traditions. However on the internet it’s easy to post about ideas and problematic to post about experiences—if you even have any.
Sure, But my point was in response to the OP.
Even Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso was clear in this regard.
In his “Progressive Stages” he makes the point that all types of Mahayana claim to be able to sit in uncontrived emptiness. I’ll listen to somebody that has properly studied emptiness, but I’ll follow someone who can sit in it.
Hard to tell who can "sit in it,' as all we can do really is listen (and then reflect, etc.) but one has to listen carefully to determine if a teacher is worth "following," for sure. Khenpo was such a one, IMO.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Khenpo was such a one, IMO.
I only had opportunity to listen to him once in person. But by reputation he’s one of the best.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:00 pmI’ll listen to somebody that has properly studied emptiness, but I’ll follow someone who can sit in it.
Assuming you are not clairvoyant, would you know the difference between one and the other?
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:23 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:00 pmI’ll listen to somebody that has properly studied emptiness, but I’ll follow someone who can sit in it.
Assuming you are not clairvoyant, would you know the difference between one and the other?
In my life I believe I have met enlightened masters. I will leave it at that.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Giovanni
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Giovanni »

I would not guess that. You are liking opinion too much.
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:35 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:23 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:00 pmI’ll listen to somebody that has properly studied emptiness, but I’ll follow someone who can sit in it.
Assuming you are not clairvoyant, would you know the difference between one and the other?
In my life I believe I have met enlightened masters. I will leave it at that.
So you can’t actually tell the difference between one and the other, you just “feel” there is a difference between one person and another. Glad to know your standards are so rigorous.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:18 pm So you can’t actually tell the difference between one and the other, you just “feel” there is a difference between one person and another. Glad to know your standards are so rigorous.
Nope.

Elsewhere on DW I’ve related the story of the crying kids and HHK16 doing the Vajra Crown. Also Kalu R blessing a panicked seagull and making it forget it’s mortal terror. Both were public events. That is why I feel comfortable relating them.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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conebeckham
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by conebeckham »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:23 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:00 pmI’ll listen to somebody that has properly studied emptiness, but I’ll follow someone who can sit in it.
Assuming you are not clairvoyant, would you know the difference between one and the other?
This was sort of my point. It all starts with "listening," which is all we can do initially, with any teacher. I include spending time with a guru as "listening," as well. I know you're not implying anything about any specific teacher. As Kongtrul said, in advice to prospective retreatants, one should respect the Vajra Master "Who performs the activities of the Buddhas in front of you" (I am paraphrasing here). It's not merely the words a guru speaks, nor is it merely the ritual gestures of empowerment, etc. At the end of the day, though, faith and confidence in a teacher is something that can't be measured or explained.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

conebeckham wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:23 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:00 pmI’ll listen to somebody that has properly studied emptiness, but I’ll follow someone who can sit in it.
Assuming you are not clairvoyant, would you know the difference between one and the other?
This was sort of my point. It all starts with "listening," which is all we can do initially, with any teacher. I include spending time with a guru as "listening," as well. I know you're not implying anything about any specific teacher. As Kongtrul said, in advice to prospective retreatants, one should respect the Vajra Master "Who performs the activities of the Buddhas in front of you" (I am paraphrasing here). It's not merely the words a guru speaks, nor is it merely the ritual gestures of empowerment, etc. At the end of the day, though, faith and confidence in a teacher is something that can't be measured or explained.
My point is that SY makes a lot of confident proclamations...but has nothing more to back them up than their feelings. I am sure you understand why someone would not really be comfortable with this.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

My point is that SY makes a lot of confident proclamations...but has nothing more to back them up than their feelings. I am sure you understand why someone would not really be comfortable with this.
One of your gurus was HHDL’s designated rainmaker. Do you believe he was actually capable of weather control? If so, why? If not, why not?

If that’s a little too personal to share on the internet, that is understandable.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:00 pm
My point is that SY makes a lot of confident proclamations...but has nothing more to back them up than their feelings. I am sure you understand why someone would not really be comfortable with this.
One of your gurus was HHDL’s designated rainmaker. Do you believe he was actually capable of weather control?

Sure, but I would not stake your belief in this on my belief. These are just my feelings. They are not objective.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:41 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:00 pm
My point is that SY makes a lot of confident proclamations...but has nothing more to back them up than their feelings. I am sure you understand why someone would not really be comfortable with this.
One of your gurus was HHDL’s designated rainmaker. Do you believe he was actually capable of weather control?
Sure, but I would not stake your belief in this on my belief. These are just my feelings. They are not objective.
If Yeshe Dorje R. could actually do weather control, and if you had first hand confirmed knowledge of that, it would not be “your feeling”. It would have been proven to be objectively true. You would have every right to have full confidence in it.

However in your retelling of the event that would not be first hand knowledge. It would only be a story. It would not be as compelling for the person you are telling it to. No matter how sincere and emphatic your speech, it’s hearsay evidence that wouldn’t be admissible in court.

So no, I would not rely on your reporting of Yeshe Dorje’s abilities. But since my mind has been opened, and since his reputation is excellent, I’d give him the benefit of the doubt. That’s short of full conviction. But it’s functional for anything other than for formal prayer.

My understanding of the DW fixation on rainbow body is that it is a deep hunger for some non-subjective proof of Dharma’s validity. That is understandable. But it’s not the only way.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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conebeckham
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by conebeckham »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:50 pm
conebeckham wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:23 am

Assuming you are not clairvoyant, would you know the difference between one and the other?
This was sort of my point. It all starts with "listening," which is all we can do initially, with any teacher. I include spending time with a guru as "listening," as well. I know you're not implying anything about any specific teacher. As Kongtrul said, in advice to prospective retreatants, one should respect the Vajra Master "Who performs the activities of the Buddhas in front of you" (I am paraphrasing here). It's not merely the words a guru speaks, nor is it merely the ritual gestures of empowerment, etc. At the end of the day, though, faith and confidence in a teacher is something that can't be measured or explained.
My point is that SY makes a lot of confident proclamations...but has nothing more to back them up than their feelings. I am sure you understand why someone would not really be comfortable with this.
Sure. but in the end, barring "objective displays" (if such a thing can even be said to exist, LOL) what proof do we have?
(Cue up the usual traditional texts regarding how to examine a Guru, etc......we all know those).

In the end, it's our unique subjective experience.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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