Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:42 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:18 am I’m not sure, but I am of the belief Gelugpas think it does imply a provisional existence. And they are criticized for it. But I’ve been wrong before.
Well, everyone eats their provisional lunch, don't they?

These are practical matters.
To me eating my provisional lunch is less a compelling argument for existence than being on a provisional diet.

I’m not one of those that criticize Gelug view precisely because these are practical matters. I don’t see how the Chandrakirti version isn’t nihilism. But I only want cartoon level explanations, so that might be why I don’t grok it.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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tobes
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by tobes »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:00 pm
tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:42 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:18 am I’m not sure, but I am of the belief Gelugpas think it does imply a provisional existence. And they are criticized for it. But I’ve been wrong before.
Well, everyone eats their provisional lunch, don't they?

These are practical matters.
And then there’s the Shakespeare diet line affirming existence,”O that this too too solid flesh would melt.”

I’m not one of those that criticize Gelug view precisely because these are practical matters. I don’t see how the Chandrakirti version isn’t nihilism. But I only want cartoon level explanations, so that might be why I don’t grok it.
That's where I would like to push these dialogues. Yes there are pundits who deploy subtle logic. But if we stay only on that level, and only on our own team, we miss the broader context for these issues - which is indeed deeply practical.

I would go as far as to say that the Gelug presentation depends on pointing out instructions. It is a guru yoga first and foremost, and has been going back to Tsong Khapa himself. This always implies upaya. So, we need to loosen in accord with this.
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:21 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:20 am
tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:56 am

Svabhava entails the grasping to existence. If it is negated, so too is the grasping to existence.
No, as Tsongkhapa’s reformulation of the twin negation shows.
IIf it were, Nagarjuna wound not have insisted on the fourfold negation.
It doesn't show this.

Only in the cartoon Gelug presentation.....where this is all and only a philosophy glass bead game.

"You've left existence untouched!"

Well, no. If something is dependently arisen, it has never existed. So, seeing appearances as dependent arisings after the negation of svabhava in no way implies existence.
All that is negated in the Gelug presentation is svabhava, not bhava, meaning that for them, the ultimate is a nonexistent and the relative is an existent. They never directly negate the table, only the table”s svabhava.

Tsongkhapa’s point of view is laid out very clearly in Lam Rim Chen mo. What I am saying is noncontroversial

In fact, Tsongkhapa makes this the key point of his system, claiming that one should not use the coarse object of negation, existence (contra Candra), and only the subtle object of negation, inherent existence. This why his view slides towards the extreme of nonexistence, just as gzhan stong slides towards the extreme of existence, and is why the two positions are reflections of each other,
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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conebeckham
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by conebeckham »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:25 pm
tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:21 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:20 am

No, as Tsongkhapa’s reformulation of the twin negation shows.
IIf it were, Nagarjuna wound not have insisted on the fourfold negation.
It doesn't show this.

Only in the cartoon Gelug presentation.....where this is all and only a philosophy glass bead game.

"You've left existence untouched!"

Well, no. If something is dependently arisen, it has never existed. So, seeing appearances as dependent arisings after the negation of svabhava in no way implies existence.
All that is negated in the Gelug presentation is svabhava, not bhava, meaning that for them, the ultimate is a nonexistent and the relative is an existent. They never directly negate the table, only the table”s svabhava.

Tsongkhapa’s point of view is laid out very clearly in Lam Rim Chen mo. What I am saying is noncontroversial

In fact, Tsongkhapa makes this the key point of his system, claiming that one should not use the coarse object of negation, existence (contra Candra), and only the subtle object of negation, inherent existence. This why his view slides towards the extreme of nonexistence, just as gzhan stong slides towards the extreme of existence, and is why the two positions are reflections of each other,
This is my understanding, as well. He creates the rabbit's horns in order to negate them.

One is left with a sort of qualified existence, whereas it should be the point of Madhyamaka (Chandra, etc.) to completely exhaust any conceptual grasping at existence. At the level of no analysis there are appearances, while no appearance withstands any analysis. Chandra is not a nihilist, though.......he is a transcendentalist of Conceptual Mind. (Not Emerson, mind you....)

That which is "Reality" cannot be encompassed by Mind. Frankly, this goes both ways--there is no emptiness, but there is also no absolutely existing entity. Most varieties of so-called Shentong are just intellectual, conceptual frameworks which try to express Wisdom as an Existent. As long as one's view is conceptual, not experiential, it's all a thicket.

Mahamudra and Dzogchen can allow for and encompass all sorts of conceptual views without adhering to any. The taste of honey will never be adequately explained in words.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

...it should be the point of Madhyamaka (Chandra, etc.) to completely exhaust any conceptual grasping at existence.
This sounds like a point I was trying to make on another thread. Whereas Malcolm emphasized Madhyamaka is an absence of views, I believe Madhyamaka is the end of the road for empiricism and logic. If Madhyamaka is approached rigorously, as is done in shedra, all the four points of the tetralemma have been logically “proven” almost like a mathematical proof. So although it’s true one is left without a view, more importantly one sees that no logically viable view is possible. This means the logical mind can see its own limitations on terms it must accept. If you simply say “absence of view” without letting go of intellectuality you just end up playing intellectual whack-a-mole with anything resembling a view. That’s what I mean when I say Madhyamaka is a “jumping off place”.
Most varieties of so-called Shentong are just intellectual, conceptual frameworks which try to express Wisdom as an Existent. As long as one's view is conceptual, not experiential, it's all a thicket.
Except that Shentong also allows for “Buddha Activity”. (see the last chapter of the Uttaratantra) This flips the script on the 1st Noble Truth and resents the foundation of the universe in a positive light. The pure view of Vajrayana isn’t just wishful self-delusion anymore. It’s correctly ascertaining how things really are. Faith and confidence are no longer at odds with thought, but are supported by it. And, IMO, this positive understanding can facilitates a positive attitude that makes the actual practices more fruitful. (Hey, at least t sounds nice.)
Mahamudra and Dzogchen can allow for and encompass all sorts of conceptual views without adhering to any.
“Without adhering” says it perfectly.
:good:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:25 pm
tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:21 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:20 am

No, as Tsongkhapa’s reformulation of the twin negation shows.
IIf it were, Nagarjuna wound not have insisted on the fourfold negation.
It doesn't show this.

Only in the cartoon Gelug presentation.....where this is all and only a philosophy glass bead game.

"You've left existence untouched!"

Well, no. If something is dependently arisen, it has never existed. So, seeing appearances as dependent arisings after the negation of svabhava in no way implies existence.
All that is negated in the Gelug presentation is svabhava, not bhava, meaning that for them, the ultimate is a nonexistent and the relative is an existent. They never directly negate the table, only the table”s svabhava.

Tsongkhapa’s point of view is laid out very clearly in Lam Rim Chen mo. What I am saying is noncontroversial

In fact, Tsongkhapa makes this the key point of his system, claiming that one should not use the coarse object of negation, existence (contra Candra), and only the subtle object of negation, inherent existence. This why his view slides towards the extreme of nonexistence, just as gzhan stong slides towards the extreme of existence, and is why the two positions are reflections of each other,
Yes, but if the subtle of object of negation is successfully negated, then the course one cannot still abide.

The idea that it somehow still can, is - as I have been suggesting at length - grounded in an entirely outsider/critics approach, based entirely on reading texts such as the Lam Rim Chen Mo, divorced from any real practical Gelug context. It is actually very tiresome. It is not different, in my opinion, to a Theravada or Zen practitioner coming onto the Dzogchen thread and making all sorts of claims based on their reading of Dzogchen texts......whilst having no DI or authentic relationship to the tradition. One can only say: this is a very fabricated conceptual proliferation.

In reality, Gelug Madhyamaka is transmitted, not merely read, not merely studied textually. And it will be transmitted in different ways depending on the dispositions of the disciple. This is why the cartoon version does not fly: it refuses upaya even though all this questions are, in the final analysis, matters of upaya.

And: anytime I have received a transmission, the table goes. Full stop. No one leaves the existence of the table untouched, no matter how much you keep reasserting this.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:25 pm
tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:21 am

It doesn't show this.

Only in the cartoon Gelug presentation.....where this is all and only a philosophy glass bead game.

"You've left existence untouched!"

Well, no. If something is dependently arisen, it has never existed. So, seeing appearances as dependent arisings after the negation of svabhava in no way implies existence.
All that is negated in the Gelug presentation is svabhava, not bhava, meaning that for them, the ultimate is a nonexistent and the relative is an existent. They never directly negate the table, only the table”s svabhava.

Tsongkhapa’s point of view is laid out very clearly in Lam Rim Chen mo. What I am saying is noncontroversial

In fact, Tsongkhapa makes this the key point of his system, claiming that one should not use the coarse object of negation, existence (contra Candra), and only the subtle object of negation, inherent existence. This why his view slides towards the extreme of nonexistence, just as gzhan stong slides towards the extreme of existence, and is why the two positions are reflections of each other,
Yes, but if the subtle of object of negation is successfully negated, then the course one cannot still abide.

The idea that it somehow still can, is - as I have been suggesting at length - grounded in an entirely outsider/critics approach, based entirely on reading texts such as the Lam Rim Chen Mo, divorced from any real practical Gelug context. It is actually very tiresome. It is not different, in my opinion, to a Theravada or Zen practitioner coming onto the Dzogchen thread and making all sorts of claims based on their reading of Dzogchen texts......whilst having no DI or authentic relationship to the tradition. One can only say: this is a very fabricated conceptual proliferation.

In reality, Gelug Madhyamaka is transmitted, not merely read, not merely studied textually. And it will be transmitted in different ways depending on the dispositions of the disciple. This is why the cartoon version does not fly: it refuses upaya even though all this questions are, in the final analysis, matters of upaya.

And: anytime I have received a transmission, the table goes. Full stop. No one leaves the existence of the table untouched, no matter how much you keep reasserting this.
Sure they do, they call it “mere” existence, nominal existence, existence by designation, etc.,

“Not existent in the ultimate, not nonexistent in then relative.”
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:57 pm In reality, Gelug Madhyamaka is transmitted...
Sure, there is a discussion, but it is not some kind of direct introduction. In fact Tsongkhapa negates the whole idea of direct introduction. One still has to engage in ones own analysis, the Geshe does not do it for you. For the record, you are not the only person who has listened to Gelug view presented by a Geshe. HHDL has literally hundreds of hours of Madhyamaka teachings one can listen to. It’s a little incredible you don’t take this into account.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:47 am
tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:25 pm

All that is negated in the Gelug presentation is svabhava, not bhava, meaning that for them, the ultimate is a nonexistent and the relative is an existent. They never directly negate the table, only the table”s svabhava.

Tsongkhapa’s point of view is laid out very clearly in Lam Rim Chen mo. What I am saying is noncontroversial

In fact, Tsongkhapa makes this the key point of his system, claiming that one should not use the coarse object of negation, existence (contra Candra), and only the subtle object of negation, inherent existence. This why his view slides towards the extreme of nonexistence, just as gzhan stong slides towards the extreme of existence, and is why the two positions are reflections of each other,
Yes, but if the subtle of object of negation is successfully negated, then the course one cannot still abide.

The idea that it somehow still can, is - as I have been suggesting at length - grounded in an entirely outsider/critics approach, based entirely on reading texts such as the Lam Rim Chen Mo, divorced from any real practical Gelug context. It is actually very tiresome. It is not different, in my opinion, to a Theravada or Zen practitioner coming onto the Dzogchen thread and making all sorts of claims based on their reading of Dzogchen texts......whilst having no DI or authentic relationship to the tradition. One can only say: this is a very fabricated conceptual proliferation.

In reality, Gelug Madhyamaka is transmitted, not merely read, not merely studied textually. And it will be transmitted in different ways depending on the dispositions of the disciple. This is why the cartoon version does not fly: it refuses upaya even though all this questions are, in the final analysis, matters of upaya.

And: anytime I have received a transmission, the table goes. Full stop. No one leaves the existence of the table untouched, no matter how much you keep reasserting this.
Sure they do, they call it “mere” existence, nominal existence, existence by designation, etc.,

“Not existent in the ultimate, not nonexistent in then relative.”
Are you suggesting that Chandrakirit always refuses lunch?
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:53 am
tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:57 pm In reality, Gelug Madhyamaka is transmitted...
Sure, there is a discussion, but it is not some kind of direct introduction. In fact Tsongkhapa negates the whole idea of direct introduction. One still has to engage in ones own analysis, the Geshe does not do it for you. For the record, you are not the only person who has listened to Gelug view presented by a Geshe. HHDL has literally hundreds of hours of Madhyamaka teachings one can listen to. It’s a little incredible you don’t take this into account.
Thanks for this condescension Malcolm, I had until this point really believed that I was the only one who has listened to a Gelug view....

Btw, if you happened to catch HHDL last week his exact quote was: "I find reading Chandrakirti a little more powerful than Tsong Khapa on this point." Says it all really.

On the question of direct introduction, I was being slightly provocative, but I stand by it. It is not mere discussion and then logical analysis by oneself. It is guru yoga all the way down, beginning with Tsong Khapa's visions of Manjushri.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:43 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:47 am
tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:57 pm

Yes, but if the subtle of object of negation is successfully negated, then the course one cannot still abide.

The idea that it somehow still can, is - as I have been suggesting at length - grounded in an entirely outsider/critics approach, based entirely on reading texts such as the Lam Rim Chen Mo, divorced from any real practical Gelug context. It is actually very tiresome. It is not different, in my opinion, to a Theravada or Zen practitioner coming onto the Dzogchen thread and making all sorts of claims based on their reading of Dzogchen texts......whilst having no DI or authentic relationship to the tradition. One can only say: this is a very fabricated conceptual proliferation.

In reality, Gelug Madhyamaka is transmitted, not merely read, not merely studied textually. And it will be transmitted in different ways depending on the dispositions of the disciple. This is why the cartoon version does not fly: it refuses upaya even though all this questions are, in the final analysis, matters of upaya.

And: anytime I have received a transmission, the table goes. Full stop. No one leaves the existence of the table untouched, no matter how much you keep reasserting this.
Sure they do, they call it “mere” existence, nominal existence, existence by designation, etc.,

“Not existent in the ultimate, not nonexistent in then relative.”
Are you suggesting that Chandrakirit always refuses lunch?
No, I am suggesting he didn’t analyze his lunch at all.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:53 am
Thanks for this condescension Malcolm, I had until this point really believed that I was the only one who has listened to a Gelug view....
Based on your comments above, could one draw some other conclusion?

I would suggest at this point the thread has reached a natural conclusion.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:00 am
tobes wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:53 am
Thanks for this condescension Malcolm, I had until this point really believed that I was the only one who has listened to a Gelug view....
Based on your comments above, could one draw some other conclusion?

I would suggest at this point the thread has reached a natural conclusion.
Agreed. Why am I on the internet trying to help you appreciate a tradition you have never shown respect for?? :shrug: I should know better.....
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:57 am
tobes wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:43 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:47 am

Sure they do, they call it “mere” existence, nominal existence, existence by designation, etc.,

“Not existent in the ultimate, not nonexistent in then relative.”
Are you suggesting that Chandrakirit always refuses lunch?
No, I am suggesting he didn’t analyze his lunch at all.
But nonetheless he still ate it.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:47 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:57 am
tobes wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:43 am

Are you suggesting that Chandrakirit always refuses lunch?
No, I am suggesting he didn’t analyze his lunch at all.
But nonetheless he still ate it.
Because it was not a subject of analysis.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:46 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:00 am
tobes wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:53 am
Thanks for this condescension Malcolm, I had until this point really believed that I was the only one who has listened to a Gelug view....
Based on your comments above, could one draw some other conclusion?

I would suggest at this point the thread has reached a natural conclusion.
Agreed. Why am I on the internet trying to help you appreciate a tradition you have never shown respect for?? :shrug: I should know better.....
Dude, you are tripping. I have actually spent time energetically rejecting unfair criticisms of Tsongkhapa’s view by Nyingma partisans, such as the idea that one cannot successfully practice Dzogchen if one’s understanding of Madhyamaka is derived from the Gelug tradition. So buzz off, you really have no idea what you are talking about and to whom you are speaking. Get a clue.
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by cloudburst »

tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:56 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:19 am
tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:24 am I mean, if the object of Madhyamaka critique/negation is not svabhava, then what else could it possibly be?
Existence, bhava, and the rest. In other words, it is not sufficient to negate only svabhava.
Svabhava entails the grasping to existence. If it is negated, so too is the grasping to existence.
precisely.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

cloudburst wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:06 am
tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:56 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:19 am

Existence, bhava, and the rest. In other words, it is not sufficient to negate only svabhava.
Svabhava entails the grasping to existence. If it is negated, so too is the grasping to existence.
precisely.
Not below the path of seeing. There are many other faults of this monopole negation. You can read Gorampa , Ganden Chopel, Mipham etc., yourself and discover what they are.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by cloudburst »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:07 am
Not below the path of seeing.
not totally, no, same as every other method.
Malcolm wrote: There are many other faults of this monopole negation. You can read Gorampa , Ganden Chopel, Mipham etc., yourself and discover what they are.
I have discovered what these authors believe they are, I dont find them impressive. The supposed faults, that is. Mipham I enjoy quite a bit.

The truth is, Je Tsongkhapa's method is perfect, but if you are ideologically invested in not seeing it, you wont see it.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by PeterC »

cloudburst wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:41 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:07 am
Not below the path of seeing.
not totally, no, same as every other method.
Malcolm wrote: There are many other faults of this monopole negation. You can read Gorampa , Ganden Chopel, Mipham etc., yourself and discover what they are.
I have discovered what these authors believe they are, I dont find them impressive. The supposed faults, that is. Mipham I enjoy quite a bit.

The truth is, Je Tsongkhapa's method is perfect, but if you are ideologically invested in not seeing it, you wont see it.
So you think that Gorampa and Gendun Chopel were too dumb to understand Tsonkhapa, but you're smarter than them and you get it?

Right. :thinking:
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