Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:21 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:51 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:59 pm
I have no idea what that means.
It means that Tsongkhapa also argued for a kind of extrinsic emptiness. Tables aren’t empty of tables, they are only empty of inherent existence.
Is this what Gendun Chopel criticized when he said that Tsonkhapa's formulation of the object of negation resulted in a completely pointless refutation?
Yes, since Tsonglkhapa insisted that one only refutes something, inherent existence, that does not exist even conventionally, like the child of a barren women.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:07 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:46 am
It means that Tsongkhapa also argued for a kind of extrinsic emptiness. Tables aren’t empty of tables, they are only empty of inherent existence.
That’s a reasonable way to teach emptiness if you want people to continue looking both ways before crossing the street.
It’s still a kind of gzhan stong.
In that Tsongkhapa accepts a limited validity to interdependent phenomena? Shentong accepts complete validity of a reality devoid of the Dependent Nature (appearances).

But it’s not a point worth pursuing.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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tobes
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:44 am
PeterC wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:21 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:51 am

It means that Tsongkhapa also argued for a kind of extrinsic emptiness. Tables aren’t empty of tables, they are only empty of inherent existence.
Is this what Gendun Chopel criticized when he said that Tsonkhapa's formulation of the object of negation resulted in a completely pointless refutation?
Yes, since Tsonglkhapa insisted that one only refutes something, inherent existence, that does not exist even conventionally, like the child of a barren women.
......but if one is a barren woman imagining her fictitious child, then perhaps it is not quite so pointless.

Also: if tables are empty of inherent existence, then they are necessarily also empty of being tables.
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:16 am
Also: if tables are empty of inherent existence, then they are necessarily also empty of being tables.
Not according to Gelug analysis— tables are not empty of mere existence as tables, only inherent existence, which is something other than the table itself.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:14 am In that Tsongkhapa accepts a limited validity to interdependent phenomena?
No, in that tables are empty of something other than the table. Tables are not empty of relative existence, only ultimate existence, which is something other than the table, hence, inverted gzhan stong.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:55 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:14 am In that Tsongkhapa accepts a limited validity to interdependent phenomena?
No, in that tables are empty of something other than the table. Tables are not empty of relative existence, only ultimate existence, which is something other than the table, hence, inverted gzhan stong.
Okay. Got it.

Cute.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:27 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:55 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:14 am In that Tsongkhapa accepts a limited validity to interdependent phenomena?
No, in that tables are empty of something other than the table. Tables are not empty of relative existence, only ultimate existence, which is something other than the table, hence, inverted gzhan stong.
Okay. Got it.

Cute.
Arguably, Tsongkhapa’s Madhyamaka can be seen as an overreaction gzhan stong, Tsongkhapa’s teacher decried gzhan stong as basically nonBuddhist.

Other Sakya Lamas like Rongton and Gorampa had a more level head, considering it a transitional teaching from Yogacara to pure Madhyamaka, I.e higher than yogacara, lower than Madhyamaka.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Arguably, Tsongkhapa’s Madhyamaka can be seen as an overreaction gzhan stong, Tsongkhapa’s teacher decried gzhan stong as basically nonBuddhist.
Yep. That’s the accusation.
Other Sakya Lamas like Rongton and Gorampa had a more level head, considering it a transitional teaching from Yogacara to pure Madhyamaka, I.e higher than yogacara, lower than Madhyamaka.
Now that idea I hadn’t heard before.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:28 pm
Arguably, Tsongkhapa’s Madhyamaka can be seen as an overreaction gzhan stong, Tsongkhapa’s teacher decried gzhan stong as basically kya Lamas like Rongton and Gorampa had a more level head, considering it a transitional teaching from Yogacara to pure Madhyamaka, I.e higher than yogacara, lower than Madhyamaka.
Now that idea I hadn’t heard before.
You weren't paying attention, I have stated this many times before.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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tobes
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:53 pm
tobes wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:16 am
Also: if tables are empty of inherent existence, then they are necessarily also empty of being tables.
Not according to Gelug analysis— tables are not empty of mere existence as tables, only inherent existence, which is something other than the table itself.
These kinds of interpretations remind me of - going the other way - Gelug strawmans of Dzogchenpas 'endlessly muttering Hum and Phet', never going beyond some middling stage of shamatha, and mistaking that for buddhahood.

It is true, that some Dzogchenpas end up in such a place. But this is not a very good critique of the view or tradition or practice, because some also do realise the true nature of their mind and attain buddhahood.

So, to your actual claim: one could perhaps arrive at that by reading, with a critical posture from outside the tradition. But never by listening to an actual Gelug teaching on Madhyamaka. I've never heard any Gelugpa negate intrinsic existence only to discover the thing remains.....
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:41 pm

I've never heard any Gelugpa negate intrinsic existence only to discover the thing remains.....
So mere existence is negated? It isn't left over?

What about "Not existing in the ultimate, not not existing the relative?" This after all is Tsongkhapa's famous formulation of the negation of existence and nonexistence.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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tobes
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:49 pm
tobes wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:41 pm

I've never heard any Gelugpa negate intrinsic existence only to discover the thing remains.....
So mere existence is negated? It isn't left over?

What about "Not existing in the ultimate, not not existing the relative?" This after all is Tsongkhapa's famous formulation of the negation of existence and nonexistence.
What's left over is just the dependent designation 'table' imputed on dependently co-arisen causes and conditions. i.e. merely labelled.

If some conventional thing is found to be merely labelled, then it does not somehow or other still remain!

However, I can see why people ascribe a 'basis' to the Gelug view - one can get there, metaphysically. And I think a lot of the contemporary scholar-philosophers - cowherders if you know them - kind of fall into this.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

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I mean, if the object of Madhyamaka critique/negation is not svabhava, then what else could it possibly be?
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:24 am I mean, if the object of Madhyamaka critique/negation is not svabhava, then what else could it possibly be?
Existence, bhava, and the rest. In other words, it is not sufficient to negate only svabhava.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:19 am
tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:24 am I mean, if the object of Madhyamaka critique/negation is not svabhava, then what else could it possibly be?
Existence, bhava, and the rest. In other words, it is not sufficient to negate only svabhava.
Svabhava entails the grasping to existence. If it is negated, so too is the grasping to existence.
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:58 am The truly great Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo....was Shakya & Shentong(ish).
Not really a gzhan stong pa.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:56 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:19 am
tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:24 am I mean, if the object of Madhyamaka critique/negation is not svabhava, then what else could it possibly be?
Existence, bhava, and the rest. In other words, it is not sufficient to negate only svabhava.
Svabhava entails the grasping to existence. If it is negated, so too is the grasping to existence.
No, as Tsongkhapa’s reformulation of the twin negation shows.
IIf it were, Nagarjuna wound not have insisted on the fourfold negation.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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tobes
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:20 am
tobes wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:56 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:19 am

Existence, bhava, and the rest. In other words, it is not sufficient to negate only svabhava.
Svabhava entails the grasping to existence. If it is negated, so too is the grasping to existence.
No, as Tsongkhapa’s reformulation of the twin negation shows.
IIf it were, Nagarjuna wound not have insisted on the fourfold negation.
It doesn't show this.

Only in the cartoon Gelug presentation.....where this is all and only a philosophy glass bead game.

"You've left existence untouched!"

Well, no. If something is dependently arisen, it has never existed. So, seeing appearances as dependent arisings after the negation of svabhava in no way implies existence.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

It doesn't show this.

Only in the cartoon Gelug presentation.....where this is all and only a philosophy glass bead game.

"You've left existence untouched!"

Well, no. If something is dependently arisen, it has never existed. So, seeing appearances as dependent arisings after the negation of svabhava in no way implies existence.
I’m not sure, but I am of the belief Gelugpas think it does imply a provisional existence. And they are criticized for it. But I’ve been wrong before.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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tobes
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by tobes »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:18 am
It doesn't show this.

Only in the cartoon Gelug presentation.....where this is all and only a philosophy glass bead game.

"You've left existence untouched!"

Well, no. If something is dependently arisen, it has never existed. So, seeing appearances as dependent arisings after the negation of svabhava in no way implies existence.
I’m not sure, but I am of the belief Gelugpas think it does imply a provisional existence. And they are criticized for it. But I’ve been wrong before.
Well, everyone eats their provisional lunch, don't they?

These are practical matters.
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