OK. Though on the terminology - I don't think any school would agree with the assertion that their view is *not* madhyamaka, though other schools may assert that to be the case. The formal education of all khenpos/geshes/etc would include studying the full menu of views if only to assert the primacy of one particular flavor.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:41 amYes. That is what I said.
From what I can tell, the only school which is exclusively Madhyamaka is the Gelug school. (Or it was before HHDL started forcing his non-sectarian agenda on them.) The only school that is exclusively Shentong is the Jonang school. The other schools make mixtures of the two. Karma Kagyu is heavily, but not exclusively, Shentong. Sakya is heavily, but not exclusively, Madhyamaka. In fact Malcolm has made a point of sourcing some of Kongtrul’s thoughts back to a Sakya lama. But I forget his name.
Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
All schools include Madhyamaka—except maybe Jonang. Something is going on with the Jonangpas and I’m not understanding what that is.PeterC wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:02 amOK. Though on the terminology - I don't think any school would agree with the assertion that their view is *not* madhyamaka, though other schools may assert that to be the case. The formal education of all khenpos/geshes/etc would include studying the full menu of views if only to assert the primacy of one particular flavor.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:41 amYes. That is what I said.
From what I can tell, the only school which is exclusively Madhyamaka is the Gelug school. (Or it was before HHDL started forcing his non-sectarian agenda on them.) The only school that is exclusively Shentong is the Jonang school. The other schools make mixtures of the two. Karma Kagyu is heavily, but not exclusively, Shentong. Sakya is heavily, but not exclusively, Madhyamaka. In fact Malcolm has made a point of sourcing some of Kongtrul’s thoughts back to a Sakya lama. But I forget his name.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Depends what you mean by exclusively. All four tenet systems identified as coming from India are studied. There is a strong grounding in Sautrantika view, since that's the basis for learning debate. When the Abhisamayalamkara is studied, it's chiefly studied through the lens of Haribhadra's commentary, who is explained to have a Yogacara Svatantrika Madhyamaka view. Gyaltsabje's sub-commentary occasionally inputs an explanation from the Prasangika point of view. A side topic during this study is Tsongkhapa's text on Cittamatra. Prasangika Madhyamaka is held up as the highest view but for instance, Drelo Khensur Yeshe Thupten Rinpoche explained that one should hold the highest view one can that allows you to practise and supports your ethics - so if your understanding of prasangika leads you to nihilism, then you are better off adopting a lower view.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:41 amYes. That is what I said.
From what I can tell, the only school which is exclusively Madhyamaka is the Gelug school. (Or it was before HHDL started forcing his non-sectarian agenda on them.) The only school that is exclusively Shentong is the Jonang school. The other schools make mixtures of the two. Karma Kagyu is heavily, but not exclusively, Shentong. Sakya is heavily, but not exclusively, Madhyamaka. In fact Malcolm has made a point of sourcing some of Kongtrul’s thoughts back to a Sakya lama. But I forget his name.
What is not studied is Shentong, always identified with the Jonangpas, which is cast as an aberrant view that arose only in Tibet, having no basis in the Dharma inherited from India.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Jonang doesn’t understand Shentong as a take on Madhymaka?Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:12 amAll schools include Madhyamaka—except maybe Jonang. Something is going on with the Jonangpas and I’m not understanding what that is.PeterC wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:02 amOK. Though on the terminology - I don't think any school would agree with the assertion that their view is *not* madhyamaka, though other schools may assert that to be the case. The formal education of all khenpos/geshes/etc would include studying the full menu of views if only to assert the primacy of one particular flavor.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:41 am
Yes. That is what I said.
From what I can tell, the only school which is exclusively Madhyamaka is the Gelug school. (Or it was before HHDL started forcing his non-sectarian agenda on them.) The only school that is exclusively Shentong is the Jonang school. The other schools make mixtures of the two. Karma Kagyu is heavily, but not exclusively, Shentong. Sakya is heavily, but not exclusively, Madhyamaka. In fact Malcolm has made a point of sourcing some of Kongtrul’s thoughts back to a Sakya lama. But I forget his name.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
At least Dolpopa does in his Mountain Dharma, presenting the view as “Great(er) Madhyamaka” and seeking to refute that it’s at odds with Madhyamaka: https://read.dzokden.org/5f89c77b5d0c393c5b1b9f34.htmlJohnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:48 amJonang doesn’t understand Shentong as a take on Madhymaka?Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:12 amAll schools include Madhyamaka—except maybe Jonang. Something is going on with the Jonangpas and I’m not understanding what that is.PeterC wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:02 am
OK. Though on the terminology - I don't think any school would agree with the assertion that their view is *not* madhyamaka, though other schools may assert that to be the case. The formal education of all khenpos/geshes/etc would include studying the full menu of views if only to assert the primacy of one particular flavor.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Let’s just say that the Gelugpas persecuted the Jonang school as heretics because of their Shentong. I’m sure there is more to the story, but that was their pretext. Why the Karma Kagyu were not persecuted in the same was puzzles me. There’s something to the story that doesn’t make sense.Jonang doesn’t understand Shentong as a take on Madhymaka?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
That is not correct. The Gelugpas would install a number of Gelug monks at rival monasteries within the administrative reach of the Lhasa gvt. So, Jonang and Gelug monks, or Sakya and Gelug monks, etc., would inhabit the same monasteries, each practicing their own tradition. What is true is that in Central Tibet, block prints of Taranatha, Dolbupa, Gorampa, the Karmapa, etc, any one who criticized Tsongkhapa were locked up and forbidden to be printed. Thus however did not prevent the distribution of manuscripts. The actual situation on the ground was far more complicated than your simplistic assessment would indicate.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:41 pmLet’s just say that the Gelugpas persecuted the Jonang school as heretics because of their Shentong. I’m sure there is more to the story, but that was their pretext. Why the Karma Kagyu were not persecuted in the same was puzzles me. There’s something to the story that doesn’t make sense.Jonang doesn’t understand Shentong as a take on Madhymaka?
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
The Karma Kagyu school was put down much harder than Jonang, much harder, as a result of the defeat of the Karma Kagyu king of Tsang, who teamed up with eastern Tibetan bonpos in his attempt to overthrow the Lhasa gvt.. You should really read some detailed accounts of Tibetan history in the 17th century. It just so happens that the king of Tsang, Karma Tenkyong, also was a patron of Jonang. Arguably, the Sakyas escaped similar monastic censure in Western Tibet because of their distance and prestige. The Nyingmapas experienced an increase in fortunes during the same period, due to the patronage of the Great 5th. What is salient here is that gzhan stong was quite popular with Nyingmapas in Central Tibet, but no effort was effort made to suppress Lochen Dharmashri’s works, because his patron was the Fifth Dalai Lama.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:41 pmLet’s just say that the Gelugpas persecuted the Jonang school as heretics because of their Shentong. I’m sure there is more to the story, but that was their pretext. Why the Karma Kagyu were not persecuted in the same was puzzles me. There’s something to the story that doesn’t make sense.Jonang doesn’t understand Shentong as a take on Madhymaka?
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
That is the first time you’ve admitted to Nyingmapas embracing Shentong.What is salient here is that gzhan stong was quite popular with Nyingmapas in Central Tibet, but no effort was effort made to suppress Lochen Dharmashri’s works, because his patron was the Fifth Dalai Lama.
Nice.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Not at all. I just rejected your assertion that since both Dudjom R. And Dilgo R. were partial to it, it was the dominant Madhyamaka View of Nyingmapas. In fact the dominant Madhyamaka presentation is that of Rongzom, Longchenpa, and Mipham, none of whom can be described as gzhan stong. But this did not prevent gzhan stong from gaining currency among some nyingma and Sakya scholars.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:10 pmThat is the first time you’ve admitted to Nyingmapas embracing Shentong.What is salient here is that gzhan stong was quite popular with Nyingmapas in Central Tibet, but no effort was effort made to suppress Lochen Dharmashri’s works, because his patron was the Fifth Dalai Lama.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Fair enough.Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:15 pmNot at all. I just rejected your assertion that since both Dudjom R. And Dilgo R. were partial to it, it was the dominant Madhyamaka View of Nyingmapas. In fact the dominant Madhyamaka presentation is that of Rongzom, Longchenpa, and Mipham, none of whom can be described as gzhan stong. But this did not prevent gzhan stong from gaining currency among some nyingma and Sakya scholars.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:10 pmThat is the first time you’ve admitted to Nyingmapas embracing Shentong.What is salient here is that gzhan stong was quite popular with Nyingmapas in Central Tibet, but no effort was effort made to suppress Lochen Dharmashri’s works, because his patron was the Fifth Dalai Lama.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
vsme wrote: From what I can tell, the only school which is exclusively Madhyamaka [and not Shentong] is the Gelug school.
vsGrapelover wrote:At least Dolpopa does in his Mountain Dharma, presenting the view as “Great(er) Madhyamaka” and seeking to refute that it’s at odds with Madhyamaka
In order to not be dismissed outright as heretics, Shentongpas must embrace Nagarjuna. So you’re not going to see Shentonpas rejecting Nagarjuna. Some, like Gelugpas, don’t buy that idea. They reject Shentong as tirthica doctrine disguised in Buddhist terminology. However as I’ve said earlier, HHDL’s non-sectarian drive has changed that for a few Gelugpas.Bristollad wrote:What is not studied [by Gelugpas] is Shentong, always identified with the Jonangpas, which is cast as an aberrant view that arose only in Tibet, having no basis in the Dharma inherited from India.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
One of my teachers claimed the Jonangpas rejected Candrakirti (rather than Nagarjuna), and instead went with Dolpopa's invention.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:43 pmvsme wrote: From what I can tell, the only school which is exclusively Madhyamaka [and not Shentong] is the Gelug school.vsGrapelover wrote:At least Dolpopa does in his Mountain Dharma, presenting the view as “Great(er) Madhyamaka” and seeking to refute that it’s at odds with MadhyamakaIn order to not be dismissed outright as heretics, Shentongpas must embrace Nagarjuna. So you’re not going to see Shentonpas rejecting Nagarjuna. Some, like Gelugpas, don’t buy that idea. They reject Shentong as tirthica doctrine disguised in Buddhist terminology. However as I’ve said earlier, HHDL’s non-sectarian drive has changed that for a few Gelugpas.Bristollad wrote:What is not studied [by Gelugpas] is Shentong, always identified with the Jonangpas, which is cast as an aberrant view that arose only in Tibet, having no basis in the Dharma inherited from India.
I know, it sounds similar to what Malcolm might say about the Gelugpas -
they misunderstood Candrakirit and instead went with Tsongkhapa's invention
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Note: General talk on Shentong etc. split to here: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=35372
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
A common Sakya criticism of Tsongkhapa is that he was an "upside down" gzhan stong pa.Bristollad wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:41 pm
they misunderstood Candrakirit and instead went with Tsongkhapa's invention
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
I have no idea what that means.A common Sakya criticism of Tsongkhapa is that he was an "upside down" gzhan stong pa.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
It means that Tsongkhapa also argued for a kind of extrinsic emptiness. Tables aren’t empty of tables, they are only empty of inherent existence.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:59 pmI have no idea what that means.A common Sakya criticism of Tsongkhapa is that he was an "upside down" gzhan stong pa.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
That’s a reasonable way to teach emptiness if you want people to continue looking both ways before crossing the street.It means that Tsongkhapa also argued for a kind of extrinsic emptiness. Tables aren’t empty of tables, they are only empty of inherent existence.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
It’s still a kind of gzhan stong.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:46 amThat’s a reasonable way to teach emptiness if you want people to continue looking both ways before crossing the street.It means that Tsongkhapa also argued for a kind of extrinsic emptiness. Tables aren’t empty of tables, they are only empty of inherent existence.
Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?
Is this what Gendun Chopel criticized when he said that Tsonkhapa's formulation of the object of negation resulted in a completely pointless refutation?Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:51 amIt means that Tsongkhapa also argued for a kind of extrinsic emptiness. Tables aren’t empty of tables, they are only empty of inherent existence.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:59 pmI have no idea what that means.A common Sakya criticism of Tsongkhapa is that he was an "upside down" gzhan stong pa.