Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

PeterC
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by PeterC »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:41 am
PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:28 am ...but my impression from a couple of Sakya khenpos is the same as JD's, that the most prevalent perspective is freedom from extremes...
Yes. That is what I said.

From what I can tell, the only school which is exclusively Madhyamaka is the Gelug school. (Or it was before HHDL started forcing his non-sectarian agenda on them.) The only school that is exclusively Shentong is the Jonang school. The other schools make mixtures of the two. Karma Kagyu is heavily, but not exclusively, Shentong. Sakya is heavily, but not exclusively, Madhyamaka. In fact Malcolm has made a point of sourcing some of Kongtrul’s thoughts back to a Sakya lama. But I forget his name.
OK. Though on the terminology - I don't think any school would agree with the assertion that their view is *not* madhyamaka, though other schools may assert that to be the case. The formal education of all khenpos/geshes/etc would include studying the full menu of views if only to assert the primacy of one particular flavor.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:02 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:41 am
PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:28 am ...but my impression from a couple of Sakya khenpos is the same as JD's, that the most prevalent perspective is freedom from extremes...
Yes. That is what I said.

From what I can tell, the only school which is exclusively Madhyamaka is the Gelug school. (Or it was before HHDL started forcing his non-sectarian agenda on them.) The only school that is exclusively Shentong is the Jonang school. The other schools make mixtures of the two. Karma Kagyu is heavily, but not exclusively, Shentong. Sakya is heavily, but not exclusively, Madhyamaka. In fact Malcolm has made a point of sourcing some of Kongtrul’s thoughts back to a Sakya lama. But I forget his name.
OK. Though on the terminology - I don't think any school would agree with the assertion that their view is *not* madhyamaka, though other schools may assert that to be the case. The formal education of all khenpos/geshes/etc would include studying the full menu of views if only to assert the primacy of one particular flavor.
All schools include Madhyamaka—except maybe Jonang. Something is going on with the Jonangpas and I’m not understanding what that is.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Bristollad
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Bristollad »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:41 am
PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:28 am ...but my impression from a couple of Sakya khenpos is the same as JD's, that the most prevalent perspective is freedom from extremes...
Yes. That is what I said.

From what I can tell, the only school which is exclusively Madhyamaka is the Gelug school. (Or it was before HHDL started forcing his non-sectarian agenda on them.) The only school that is exclusively Shentong is the Jonang school. The other schools make mixtures of the two. Karma Kagyu is heavily, but not exclusively, Shentong. Sakya is heavily, but not exclusively, Madhyamaka. In fact Malcolm has made a point of sourcing some of Kongtrul’s thoughts back to a Sakya lama. But I forget his name.
Depends what you mean by exclusively. All four tenet systems identified as coming from India are studied. There is a strong grounding in Sautrantika view, since that's the basis for learning debate. When the Abhisamayalamkara is studied, it's chiefly studied through the lens of Haribhadra's commentary, who is explained to have a Yogacara Svatantrika Madhyamaka view. Gyaltsabje's sub-commentary occasionally inputs an explanation from the Prasangika point of view. A side topic during this study is Tsongkhapa's text on Cittamatra. Prasangika Madhyamaka is held up as the highest view but for instance, Drelo Khensur Yeshe Thupten Rinpoche explained that one should hold the highest view one can that allows you to practise and supports your ethics - so if your understanding of prasangika leads you to nihilism, then you are better off adopting a lower view.

What is not studied is Shentong, always identified with the Jonangpas, which is cast as an aberrant view that arose only in Tibet, having no basis in the Dharma inherited from India.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:12 am
PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:02 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:41 am

Yes. That is what I said.

From what I can tell, the only school which is exclusively Madhyamaka is the Gelug school. (Or it was before HHDL started forcing his non-sectarian agenda on them.) The only school that is exclusively Shentong is the Jonang school. The other schools make mixtures of the two. Karma Kagyu is heavily, but not exclusively, Shentong. Sakya is heavily, but not exclusively, Madhyamaka. In fact Malcolm has made a point of sourcing some of Kongtrul’s thoughts back to a Sakya lama. But I forget his name.
OK. Though on the terminology - I don't think any school would agree with the assertion that their view is *not* madhyamaka, though other schools may assert that to be the case. The formal education of all khenpos/geshes/etc would include studying the full menu of views if only to assert the primacy of one particular flavor.
All schools include Madhyamaka—except maybe Jonang. Something is going on with the Jonangpas and I’m not understanding what that is.
Jonang doesn’t understand Shentong as a take on Madhymaka?
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by GrapeLover »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:48 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:12 am
PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:02 am

OK. Though on the terminology - I don't think any school would agree with the assertion that their view is *not* madhyamaka, though other schools may assert that to be the case. The formal education of all khenpos/geshes/etc would include studying the full menu of views if only to assert the primacy of one particular flavor.
All schools include Madhyamaka—except maybe Jonang. Something is going on with the Jonangpas and I’m not understanding what that is.
Jonang doesn’t understand Shentong as a take on Madhymaka?
At least Dolpopa does in his Mountain Dharma, presenting the view as “Great(er) Madhyamaka” and seeking to refute that it’s at odds with Madhyamaka: https://read.dzokden.org/5f89c77b5d0c393c5b1b9f34.html
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Jonang doesn’t understand Shentong as a take on Madhymaka?
Let’s just say that the Gelugpas persecuted the Jonang school as heretics because of their Shentong. I’m sure there is more to the story, but that was their pretext. Why the Karma Kagyu were not persecuted in the same was puzzles me. There’s something to the story that doesn’t make sense.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:41 pm
Jonang doesn’t understand Shentong as a take on Madhymaka?
Let’s just say that the Gelugpas persecuted the Jonang school as heretics because of their Shentong. I’m sure there is more to the story, but that was their pretext. Why the Karma Kagyu were not persecuted in the same was puzzles me. There’s something to the story that doesn’t make sense.
That is not correct. The Gelugpas would install a number of Gelug monks at rival monasteries within the administrative reach of the Lhasa gvt. So, Jonang and Gelug monks, or Sakya and Gelug monks, etc., would inhabit the same monasteries, each practicing their own tradition. What is true is that in Central Tibet, block prints of Taranatha, Dolbupa, Gorampa, the Karmapa, etc, any one who criticized Tsongkhapa were locked up and forbidden to be printed. Thus however did not prevent the distribution of manuscripts. The actual situation on the ground was far more complicated than your simplistic assessment would indicate.
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that name does not exist."
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:41 pm
Jonang doesn’t understand Shentong as a take on Madhymaka?
Let’s just say that the Gelugpas persecuted the Jonang school as heretics because of their Shentong. I’m sure there is more to the story, but that was their pretext. Why the Karma Kagyu were not persecuted in the same was puzzles me. There’s something to the story that doesn’t make sense.
The Karma Kagyu school was put down much harder than Jonang, much harder, as a result of the defeat of the Karma Kagyu king of Tsang, who teamed up with eastern Tibetan bonpos in his attempt to overthrow the Lhasa gvt.. You should really read some detailed accounts of Tibetan history in the 17th century. It just so happens that the king of Tsang, Karma Tenkyong, also was a patron of Jonang. Arguably, the Sakyas escaped similar monastic censure in Western Tibet because of their distance and prestige. The Nyingmapas experienced an increase in fortunes during the same period, due to the patronage of the Great 5th. What is salient here is that gzhan stong was quite popular with Nyingmapas in Central Tibet, but no effort was effort made to suppress Lochen Dharmashri’s works, because his patron was the Fifth Dalai Lama.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

What is salient here is that gzhan stong was quite popular with Nyingmapas in Central Tibet, but no effort was effort made to suppress Lochen Dharmashri’s works, because his patron was the Fifth Dalai Lama.
That is the first time you’ve admitted to Nyingmapas embracing Shentong.

Nice.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:10 pm
What is salient here is that gzhan stong was quite popular with Nyingmapas in Central Tibet, but no effort was effort made to suppress Lochen Dharmashri’s works, because his patron was the Fifth Dalai Lama.
That is the first time you’ve admitted to Nyingmapas embracing Shentong.
Not at all. I just rejected your assertion that since both Dudjom R. And Dilgo R. were partial to it, it was the dominant Madhyamaka View of Nyingmapas. In fact the dominant Madhyamaka presentation is that of Rongzom, Longchenpa, and Mipham, none of whom can be described as gzhan stong. But this did not prevent gzhan stong from gaining currency among some nyingma and Sakya scholars.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:15 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:10 pm
What is salient here is that gzhan stong was quite popular with Nyingmapas in Central Tibet, but no effort was effort made to suppress Lochen Dharmashri’s works, because his patron was the Fifth Dalai Lama.
That is the first time you’ve admitted to Nyingmapas embracing Shentong.
Not at all. I just rejected your assertion that since both Dudjom R. And Dilgo R. were partial to it, it was the dominant Madhyamaka View of Nyingmapas. In fact the dominant Madhyamaka presentation is that of Rongzom, Longchenpa, and Mipham, none of whom can be described as gzhan stong. But this did not prevent gzhan stong from gaining currency among some nyingma and Sakya scholars.
Fair enough.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

me wrote: From what I can tell, the only school which is exclusively Madhyamaka [and not Shentong] is the Gelug school.
vs
Grapelover wrote:At least Dolpopa does in his Mountain Dharma, presenting the view as “Great(er) Madhyamaka” and seeking to refute that it’s at odds with Madhyamaka
vs
Bristollad wrote:What is not studied [by Gelugpas] is Shentong, always identified with the Jonangpas, which is cast as an aberrant view that arose only in Tibet, having no basis in the Dharma inherited from India.
In order to not be dismissed outright as heretics, Shentongpas must embrace Nagarjuna. So you’re not going to see Shentonpas rejecting Nagarjuna. Some, like Gelugpas, don’t buy that idea. They reject Shentong as tirthica doctrine disguised in Buddhist terminology. However as I’ve said earlier, HHDL’s non-sectarian drive has changed that for a few Gelugpas.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Bristollad »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:43 pm
me wrote: From what I can tell, the only school which is exclusively Madhyamaka [and not Shentong] is the Gelug school.
vs
Grapelover wrote:At least Dolpopa does in his Mountain Dharma, presenting the view as “Great(er) Madhyamaka” and seeking to refute that it’s at odds with Madhyamaka
vs
Bristollad wrote:What is not studied [by Gelugpas] is Shentong, always identified with the Jonangpas, which is cast as an aberrant view that arose only in Tibet, having no basis in the Dharma inherited from India.
In order to not be dismissed outright as heretics, Shentongpas must embrace Nagarjuna. So you’re not going to see Shentonpas rejecting Nagarjuna. Some, like Gelugpas, don’t buy that idea. They reject Shentong as tirthica doctrine disguised in Buddhist terminology. However as I’ve said earlier, HHDL’s non-sectarian drive has changed that for a few Gelugpas.
One of my teachers claimed the Jonangpas rejected Candrakirti (rather than Nagarjuna), and instead went with Dolpopa's invention.
I know, it sounds similar to what Malcolm might say about the Gelugpas -
they misunderstood Candrakirit and instead went with Tsongkhapa's invention :smile:
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Note: General talk on Shentong etc. split to here: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=35372
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Bristollad wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:41 pm
they misunderstood Candrakirit and instead went with Tsongkhapa's invention :smile:
A common Sakya criticism of Tsongkhapa is that he was an "upside down" gzhan stong pa.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

A common Sakya criticism of Tsongkhapa is that he was an "upside down" gzhan stong pa.
I have no idea what that means.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:59 pm
A common Sakya criticism of Tsongkhapa is that he was an "upside down" gzhan stong pa.
I have no idea what that means.
It means that Tsongkhapa also argued for a kind of extrinsic emptiness. Tables aren’t empty of tables, they are only empty of inherent existence.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

It means that Tsongkhapa also argued for a kind of extrinsic emptiness. Tables aren’t empty of tables, they are only empty of inherent existence.
That’s a reasonable way to teach emptiness if you want people to continue looking both ways before crossing the street.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:46 am
It means that Tsongkhapa also argued for a kind of extrinsic emptiness. Tables aren’t empty of tables, they are only empty of inherent existence.
That’s a reasonable way to teach emptiness if you want people to continue looking both ways before crossing the street.
It’s still a kind of gzhan stong.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by PeterC »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:51 am
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:59 pm
A common Sakya criticism of Tsongkhapa is that he was an "upside down" gzhan stong pa.
I have no idea what that means.
It means that Tsongkhapa also argued for a kind of extrinsic emptiness. Tables aren’t empty of tables, they are only empty of inherent existence.
Is this what Gendun Chopel criticized when he said that Tsonkhapa's formulation of the object of negation resulted in a completely pointless refutation?
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