Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

nomono
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Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by nomono »

Hello, I know that there are Kagyu teachers who teach shentong like Kalu Rinpoche and Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso.
My questions now is, are there other known teachers of the Kagyu school who teach shentong and especially mahamdudra with shentong view in english?

And could you recommend me teachers of the Kagyu school besides Kalu Rinpoche and Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso who have written about this in their books?

Thank you very much in advance.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Thrangu Rinpoche for sure.
I assume Ponlop Rinpoche since Khenpo Tsultrim was his teacher.

But Mahāmudras is a practice. It is something you do. Shentong is a view, an idea. The exact same Mahamudra instructions can be supported by Madhyamaka, Mind Only, or Shentong views. The view is a support, not a Path per se.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Tai Situ Rinpoche is known for this.
YesheD.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by YesheD. »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:34 pm Thrangu Rinpoche for sure.
I assume Ponlop Rinpoche since Khenpo Tsultrim was his teacher.

But Mahāmudras is a practice. It is something you do. Shentong is a view, an idea. The exact same Mahamudra instructions can be supported by Madhyamaka, Mind Only, or Shentong views. The view is a support, not a Path per se.
Quite right. Try not to select your practice by fitting it around a belief system that you favor. Take Refuge with a bone fide teacher then practice what she/he tells you. All else follows that.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by dzoki »

nomono wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:59 am mahamdudra with shentong view
There is no mahamudra with shengtong view, there is madhyamaka with shentong view. The view of Mahamudra transcends the view of madhyamaka, it is more complete than the view of madhyamaka.

Also in madhyamaka one discovers the view by conceptual analysis, but it is a kind of intelectual view - not what one could call the actual view, then the intelectual view is brought into being the actual view through practice of meditation, it can be a long process.

In mahamudra one discovers view through practice of meditation under the guidance of guru, who is gradually guiding student through pointing out instructions.

In dzogchen the view is introduced first by means of empowerment by rigpa´s energy and then the practice of meditation is to stabilize resting in that view. However it might not be easy to discover the view by getting this empowerment, itt requires certain maturity on the part of student. Even if the guru is great vidyadhara, but the student is quite dull or confused, it might not work.

I think it would be best if you found a teacher based on his qualities and how he fits your character - in other words how well he can guide you out of the self-made prison of samsara, rather than on particular system he is teaching. Otherwise you could end up like collector who collects this and that, but is never satisfied.
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jyotirvidya
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by jyotirvidya »

Yes as others mention, Ponlop Rinpoche and his Lamas such as Acharya Lama Tenpa Gyaltsen transmit that and other related tenet systems and views in both a meditational and academic (shedra) setting at Nitartha Institute which is now online.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

dzoki wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:01 pm
nomono wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:59 am mahamdudra with shentong view
There is no mahamudra with shengtong view, there is madhyamaka with shentong view. The view of Mahamudra transcends the view of madhyamaka, it is more complete than the view of madhyamaka.

Also in madhyamaka one discovers the view by conceptual analysis, but it is a kind of intelectual view - not what one could call the actual view, then the intelectual view is brought into being the actual view through practice of meditation, it can be a long process.

In mahamudra one discovers view through practice of meditation under the guidance of guru, who is gradually guiding student through pointing out instructions.

In dzogchen the view is introduced first by means of empowerment by rigpa´s energy and then the practice of meditation is to stabilize resting in that view. However it might not be easy to discover the view by getting this empowerment, itt requires certain maturity on the part of student. Even if the guru is great vidyadhara, but the student is quite dull or confused, it might not work.

I think it would be best if you found a teacher based on his qualities and how he fits your character - in other words how well he can guide you out of the self-made prison of samsara, rather than on particular system he is teaching. Otherwise you could end up like collector who collects this and that, but is never satisfied.
I agree, it is starting from a ...frozen place to choose a teacher on the basis of simply philosophical tenets with which one agrees, in my opinion. It's probably a poor idea.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
PeterC
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by PeterC »

nomono wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:59 am Hello, I know that there are Kagyu teachers who teach shentong like Kalu Rinpoche and Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso.
My questions now is, are there other known teachers of the Kagyu school who teach shentong and especially mahamdudra with shentong view in english?

And could you recommend me teachers of the Kagyu school besides Kalu Rinpoche and Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso who have written about this in their books?

Thank you very much in advance.
The Kagyu school and its lamas are not really defined by adherence to particular tenet systems. If you're interested in that school, you're better off choosing a lama on the basis of their ability to teach the practice side.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

A while back I was walking with a Karma Kagyu khenpo and conversing with him in English. As soon as I said “Shentong” and “Uttaratantra” he stopped understanding anything I said. That was the end of the conversation. Apparently he didn’t think I was properly prepared for the idea.

So just because a teacher knows about it doesn’t mean they will teach it to you.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

I think chogyam trungpa taught shentong, no? I've been under the impression that the center-less awareness taught in kagyu is shentong meditation.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:15 am I think chogyam trungpa taught shentong, no? I've been under the impression that the center-less awareness taught in kagyu is shentong meditation.
That's just shamatha without an object, or taking awareness as an object if you prefer...taught in some form by almost every major Tibetan tradition that I'm aware of, and has little to nothing to do with Shentong as a tenet. It's a little more specific practice when you put it in the Dzogchen context, but it has nothing to do with the rangtong vs. shentong debate as far as I know. In fact, I would find an argument that it does somewhat specious, being that it is such a general and widely taught practice. It's literally just the step following object-focused shamatha in the praxis of Tibetan traditions. Other than being a Buddhist practice contextually, it is philosophically neutral.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

As JD just pointed out, Shentong is not a practice. It is an intellectual idea, a view. It's a way of thinking about things. There's no way to "do" Shentong. It does not yield results.

Mahamudra and Dzogchen are practices. You do them. They yield results (ideally).

My own personal analogy is Shentong is like sheet music, and Mahamudra is like playing an instrument. They are related, but only one is actually making musical sounds.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:48 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:15 am I think chogyam trungpa taught shentong, no? I've been under the impression that the center-less awareness taught in kagyu is shentong meditation.
That's just shamatha without an object, or taking awareness as an object if you prefer...taught in some form by almost every major Tibetan tradition that I'm aware of, and has little to nothing to do with Shentong as a tenet. It's a little more specific practice when you put it in the Dzogchen context, but it has nothing to do with the rangtong vs. shentong debate as far as I know. In fact, I would find an argument that it does somewhat specious, being that it is such a general and widely taught practice. It's literally just the step following object-focused shamatha in the praxis of Tibetan traditions. Other than being a Buddhist practice contextually, it is philosophically neutral.
From wikipedia, take it how you will...

"Nowadays Shentong is present primarily as the main philosophical theory of the Jonang school, although it is also taught by the Sakya and Kagyu schools,[8][9] where it is identified with centerless awareness."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangtong-Shentong
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:21 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:48 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:15 am I think chogyam trungpa taught shentong, no? I've been under the impression that the center-less awareness taught in kagyu is shentong meditation.
That's just shamatha without an object, or taking awareness as an object if you prefer...taught in some form by almost every major Tibetan tradition that I'm aware of, and has little to nothing to do with Shentong as a tenet. It's a little more specific practice when you put it in the Dzogchen context, but it has nothing to do with the rangtong vs. shentong debate as far as I know. In fact, I would find an argument that it does somewhat specious, being that it is such a general and widely taught practice. It's literally just the step following object-focused shamatha in the praxis of Tibetan traditions. Other than being a Buddhist practice contextually, it is philosophically neutral.
From wikipedia, take it how you will...

"Nowadays Shentong is present primarily as the main philosophical theory of the Jonang school, although it is also taught by the Sakya and Kagyu schools,[8][9] where it is identified with centerless awareness."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangtong-Shentong

That's a good reason to take wikipedia entries on detailed Dharma subjects like this with a grain of salt, that's just gobbledegook. I notice there is no attribution to the statement. I'd also be curious who teaches Shentong within Sakya, and certainly meditations of this sort have nothing to do with Shentong there, that I have ever seen. Freedom From Extremes by Gorampa is, AFAIK considered a pretty authoritative texts on this issue insofar as Sakyapas are concerned.

Perhaps someone else can shed light on the quote and knows something I don't, but I feel confident it is probably just a wiki editors random nonsense, and is worth being skeptical of.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Shentong is also not taught in Sakya that I know of...
I believe that Sakya teaches both, but primarily Madhyamaka. In fact the first time I ever heard about Shentong was in a teaching by Deshung R. in the '80s.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:44 am
Shentong is also not taught in Sakya that I know of...
I believe that Sakya teaches both, but primarily Madhyamaka. In fact the first time I ever heard about Shentong was in a teaching by Deshung R. in the '80s.
Well, IIRC my teacher told me that generally prasangika madhyamaka prevails in the Sakya school (he's a Sakya loppon btw), and that Gorampas take is considered pretty authoritative. I was too lazy to read it (just being honest) but I believe it refutes both Shentong in some form -and- the Geluk view.

I have taken a fair number of Sakya teachings over the past 8 or 9 years, and never heard the issue broached, but of course lots of what I have been around is practice oriented, not necessarily philosophical. I do have people I can directly ask this question again though, who can probably give a definitive answer. I imagine that Malcolm also knows the answer here to what is usually taught in detail. FWIW, I cannot imagine reading Mountain Doctrine or something here, the reading is pretty standard Shantideva, Nagarjuna, etc. So, I imagine that however Shentong exists within the Sakya school it is pretty minor, though I could be mistaken.

That quote from the wiki is still junk.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by tobes »

The truly great Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo....was Shakya & Shentong(ish).
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by tobes »

But I think the vastness and profundity of his approach puts our own little too'ings and fro'ings on these sorts of issues into the correct perspective: it's all Dharma. Just drink as much of it as you can and stop worrying about your petty fixations to this thing or that.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by PeterC »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:44 am
Shentong is also not taught in Sakya that I know of...
I believe that Sakya teaches both, but primarily Madhyamaka. In fact the first time I ever heard about Shentong was in a teaching by Deshung R. in the '80s.
Sakyapas certainly study both because they study everything, but my impression from a couple of Sakya khenpos is the same as JD's, that the most prevalent perspective is freedom from extremes, which in any case is probably the option on the menu least tied to any specific assertions. But Malcolm would have the best perspective on this.
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Re: Kagyu lineage/school which teaches shentong mahamudra or dzogchen?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:28 am ...but my impression from a couple of Sakya khenpos is the same as JD's, that the most prevalent perspective is freedom from extremes...
Yes. That is what I said.

From what I can tell, the only school which is exclusively Madhyamaka is the Gelug school. (Or it was before HHDL started forcing his non-sectarian agenda on them.) The only school that is exclusively Shentong is the Jonang school. The other schools make mixtures of the two. Karma Kagyu is heavily, but not exclusively, Shentong. Sakya is heavily, but not exclusively, Madhyamaka. In fact Malcolm has made a point of sourcing some of Kongtrul’s thoughts back to a Sakya lama. But I forget his name.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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