Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

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PeterC
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by PeterC »

Astus wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:10 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:11 amif you want to understand what the meaning is of Mahamudra and how it is accomplished, you have to receive and practice it from a teacher and understand it in those terms. You cannot understand it based on books.
The question put forth is fairly abstract and theoretical. It is stated by various authors that the vipasyana used in Mahamudra matches with what is taught in Sutrayana works (e.g. Situ Tenpai Nyinje in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 249; Dakpo Tashi Namgyal in Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 181; Ngawang Kunga Tenzin in The Royal Seal of Mahamudra, p 264-267). Since that is so, the question is if the difference in method between Paramitayana and Vajrayana can be identified in how one gets to the point of being able to engage in vipasyana.
You're going to force me to repeat what I said. The fact that people write books about it doesn't mean they think that you can understand it by only reading books.
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Astus »

PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:23 amThe fact that people write books about it doesn't mean they think that you can understand it by only reading books.
Sure. But that was neither stated nor even implied.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Crazywisdom
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Crazywisdom »

The conflation of sutra and tantra in Kagyu is sort of a problem for Kagyu students, honestly. If you really get into the blessings then that all clears up. But I re´smember people asking a million questions like this of the lama and it definitely gets tedious. IMHO it really helps to assume that all tantras spring from the same source and they are all Mahamudra and;or Dzogchen. Then, look into how the fourth empowerment is explained or taught and the clear distinctions of tantra become easily apparent. The Wisdom Chapter of the Kalachakra is really important in particular. There are no clearer statements about what Mahamudra is than that. Since that doc can be difficult to find, one might also read Longchenpa´s commentary on the Guhyagharba. You will find both very clear statements about what the fourth empowerment is what the completion stage is.

Kagyu like to place a person at the level of Mahamudra from the beginning and make one take all levels as one. There is a high understanding of the fruit as the path that comes this way. But one can mistakenly think theravada style vipashyana methods are at the same level as the high energy things going on in Tantra. One would really have to remain with that Kagyu teacher long enough to get all the transmissions one is meant to receive until one can have all the wild experiences that come from such a relationship and that unlimited boundless thing starts to make sense.
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by PeterC »

Astus wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:27 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:23 amThe fact that people write books about it doesn't mean they think that you can understand it by only reading books.
Sure. But that was neither stated nor even implied.
It felt implied in that that was what you were trying to do?

In any case, to your point that:
It is stated by various authors that the vipasyana used in Mahamudra matches with what is taught in Sutrayana works (e.g. Situ Tenpai Nyinje in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 249; Dakpo Tashi Namgyal in Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 181; Ngawang Kunga Tenzin in The Royal Seal of Mahamudra, p 264-267). Since that is so, the question is if the difference in method between Paramitayana and Vajrayana can be identified in how one gets to the point of being able to engage in vipasyana.
You would need to identify exactly which instructions you're talking about to compare the instructions found in sutra on vipasyana and those found in Kagyu mahamudra. I'm not sure it's the same. There are a lot of instructions on enhancement in mahamudra texts which don't really appear in sutra texts. But we would need to be clear on exactly what we're talking about when we say 'sutra vipasyana', which instructions in which sutras, I'm not yet clear on that. Moreover the fact that the practitioner has had introduction to the nature of mind does fundamentally change the nature of the practice. Practicing a sadhana with vs. without the relevant empowerment is two different activities.
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm »

White Sakura wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:22 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:05 pm
White Sakura wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:11 pm
Just asking: If I am taught for nine days, eight hours every day on the Mahamudra prayer of third Karmapa, without a single mantra, Yidam or any other visualization being mentioned during this days-then what is that? Secret Mantra teaching?
There is actually a blessing empowerment connected with the the Dorjechangma.
Thank you :anjali:
what is Dorjechangma? I only know Dorje Chang Thungma.
Same.
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that name does not exist."
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm »

White Sakura wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:21 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:43 pm
White Sakura wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:40 pm
Definition of that term again please.

:anjali:
We've established there is no such thing, other than as a name for prajñāpāramitā, to inspire unfortunate yogis.
just saying:
Mahamudra, in the Kagyu lineage, has three different classifications or approaches to practice: sutra Mahamudra, mantra Mahamudra, and essence Mahamudra.
there is no such thing as sutra Mahamudra for you, Malcom, other then as a name for another term. Since you are not Kagyu.You don´t pay attention to any of the quotes of Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche, I know. But this is the Kagyu sub-forum here. So his citations might be of some importance.
Well, you need to read what Kongtrul says on the issue. As I pointed out, I have received Mahamudra teachings in the Karma Kagyu tradition.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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florin
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by florin »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:24 pm
White Sakura wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:21 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:43 pm

We've established there is no such thing, other than as a name for prajñāpāramitā, to inspire unfortunate yogis.
just saying:
Mahamudra, in the Kagyu lineage, has three different classifications or approaches to practice: sutra Mahamudra, mantra Mahamudra, and essence Mahamudra.
there is no such thing as sutra Mahamudra for you, Malcom, other then as a name for another term. Since you are not Kagyu.You don´t pay attention to any of the quotes of Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche, I know. But this is the Kagyu sub-forum here. So his citations might be of some importance.
Well, you need to read what Kongtrul says on the issue. As I pointed out, I have received Mahamudra teachings in the Karma Kagyu tradition.
I thought Kongtrul was wrong. Not only that, but how come you trust English translations? Up until recently you said that English translations can’t be trusted. Shall we think the same about yours ?

It seems to me that Kongtrul is right or wrong depending of how the wind of bias and convenience blows.
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Matt J »

My question is whether anyone knows of any Kagyu lamas who teach complete, unrestricted, sutra Mahamudra to non-initiates (people who have not received any tantric empowerments). Not in theory, but in actual practice.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Astus »

PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:16 amYou would need to identify exactly which instructions you're talking about to compare the instructions found in sutra on vipasyana and those found in Kagyu mahamudra.
Here are examples from Mahamudra the Moonlight. If required I can copy here the various quotes.

'Which of the scriptures deal with this subject? One may wonder which of the scriptures deal with meditation on the vision of reality, which arises from insight and which is capable of resolving doubts and assumptions. Such a vision is attained after having determined that all things are only mind created, and that even the mind’s intrinsic nature is devoid of true essence.'
(p 185)

Then quotes from Sutralamkara, Bodhicittavivarana, Bhavanakrama.

'The actual stages of this meditation. During the earlier meditation on tranquil absorption, the settling of mind in a nondiscriminating absorption was predominant. Here, in this meditation on insight, the analyses of mind through discerning wisdom should be the predominant factor. By settling the mind in undistracted tranquility, one enhances the quality of the mind’s lucidity and then examines this state. Here the method of determining the mind’s innate essence is similar to those of the sutra tradition for determining selflessness of personality.'
(p 186)

Quote from Bhavanakrama.

'How this meditation compares with the original exposition. The followers
of this meditation order describe the aforesaid meditation as discovering the mind.'

(p 188)

Quotes from Ratnakuta, Ratnakutapariprccha-sutra, Trayastrimsat-parivarta, Bhavanakrama.

'The sutras and the tantras are replete with many such words of wisdom. In summary, it has been stated that examination of the mind has to be so exhaustive as to embrace all the external and internal phenomena with special reference to color, shape, dwelling place, support, identity, and mode of mind. Only after a thorough examination will one understand that the nature of mind is formless, undemonstrable, without basis externally or internally, and is detached from discriminating thoughts. Thus, the in trinsic nature of mind is identical with space!'
(p 191)

Quotes from Bodhicittavivarana, Siksasamuccaya.

'How to determine the nature of the mind. One now endeavors systematically to determine the mind through medi tational methods such as those already described.'
(p 192)

Quotes from Mahakarunanirdesa-sutra, Maitreyapariprccha-sutra, Kasyapapariprccha-sutra, Samdhinirmocana, Samdhivyakarana-sutra.

'The term “seeing the mind” is a simple designation for understanding the mind’s unreality, which is detached from the beginning from all modes of existence or nonexistence.'
(p 195)

Quote from Prajnaparamita-samcayagatha.

'The showing of all appearances to be the products of mind.'
(p 196)

Quotes from Lankavatara-sutra, Bodhicittavivarana.

'The realization of mind, which will bring about an insight into all appearances.'
(p 198)

Quotes from Satasahasrika-prajnaparamita-sutra, 'Aryadeva' (actually found in works by Bodhibhadra and Haribhadra), Catuhsataka, Satyadvaya of Atisa, Samadhiraja-sutra, Bodhicittavivarana,

'The actual stage of this meditation. At this stage, the determination of thoughts and appearances is similar to the determination of the selflessness of things according to the sutra system.'
(p 200)

No quotes from any source.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm »

florin wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:24 pm
White Sakura wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:21 am
just saying:


there is no such thing as sutra Mahamudra for you, Malcom, other then as a name for another term. Since you are not Kagyu.You don´t pay attention to any of the quotes of Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche, I know. But this is the Kagyu sub-forum here. So his citations might be of some importance.
Well, you need to read what Kongtrul says on the issue. As I pointed out, I have received Mahamudra teachings in the Karma Kagyu tradition.
I thought Kongtrul was wrong. Not only that, but how come you trust English translations?
I don’t necessarily. But I can read the original texts for myself. Thus, I can judge how accurate translations from Tibetan are.
Up until recently you said that English translations can’t be trusted. Shall we think the same about yours ?
No translation can catch 100 percent of the nuances of the source language. All I can say about my translations is that they have been peer-reviewed pretty thoroughly. It’s one of the advantages of publishing with Wisdom. Their CEO is a PhD from Harvard, reads both Sanskrit and Tibetan very well, and insists on rigorous scrutiny of manuscripts. I feel very fortunate to have them as my publisher.

And, Adriano C. personally told me that he thought I had done a good job. And of course I invited him to point out any errors he might encounter to improve the overall translation.
It seems to me that Kongtrul is right or wrong depending of how the wind of bias and convenience blows.
I was referring Kongtrul’s own presentation of the three kinds of Mahamudra in his Encyclopedia. There he clearly states “sutra” mahamudra is for students who are not suitable recipients for the two stages approach of the Six Dharmas of Naropa nor essence mahamudra. More importantly, the term “mahamudra” occurs in no sutra at all.

I am not actually arguing about sutra mahamudra. I was rejecting Altus’s citations which contained claims which aren’t sustainable on the basis of looking at what the Indian texts being cited themselves say.
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PeterC
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by PeterC »

Astus wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:40 pm
PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:16 amYou would need to identify exactly which instructions you're talking about to compare the instructions found in sutra on vipasyana and those found in Kagyu mahamudra.
Here are examples from Mahamudra the Moonlight. If required I can copy here the various quotes.
yes that would be the point. I think what you're quoting here is the text, not the quotations in the text?
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Astus »

PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:06 pmyes that would be the point. I think what you're quoting here is the text, not the quotations in the text?
Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 185-186 wrote:
One may wonder which of the scriptures deal with meditation on the vision of reality, which arises from insight and which is capable of resolving doubts and assumptions. Such a vision is attained after having determined that all things are only mind-created, and that even the mind’s intrinsic nature is devoid of true essence. The Sutralamkara illustrates this:

Understand that nothing exists apart from the mind.
Know that the mind itself is unreal.
An intelligent person, comprehending the unreality of the two,
Settles in the expanse of the nondual reality.

The Bodhichittavivarana expounds:

Having once established pure idealism,
Blessed seekers reject the reality of mind itself.
For the exponents of the Consciousness Only school
All the diverse appearances are the manifestation of mind.
What then is the self-nature of consciousness?
This is to be elucidated here.
“All things are but a product of the mind,”
The Supreme Sage expounded
To protect seekers with childish minds who might otherwise be terrified,
Even though this statement was not truly so.
All the conceptually designated, dependent conditionality
And established reality are but empty.102
This is the singular essence of the abiding reality,
And should be determined in terms of one’s own mind.
For those who delight in the Great Vehicle,
Reality is perfectly even, without a self-essence,
Because the mind is nonarising right from the beginning.
Thus it was summarized by Buddha.

The first Bhavanakrama elaborates:

Thus, one contemplates that the three planes of phenomenal existence are the product of the mind only, and then one realizes that everything conceptually designated is simply of mental origin. If one examines every aspect of themind, one is analyzing the intrinsic nature of all phenomena. In so examining one may further examine in the following manner. The mind as such cannot be real from the stand point of ultimate truth. How can the mind be real when it clings to images of what are essentially false sensory forms, etc.,manifesting themselves externally in diverse appearances? Just as sensory forms, etc. are false, so the mind is also false since it is not any different from the former. The senses – emerging in diverse forms – are devoid of either one or many essences. The reality of the mind is not different from the senses; it is also devoid of either one or many essences. For these reasons the mind by nature is indeed like a magical scene. Like the mind, all phenomena in their intrinsic nature are also like a magical scene.

Similar elucidations are found in other treatises on the stages of meditation.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:06 pm
Astus wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:40 pm
PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:16 amYou would need to identify exactly which instructions you're talking about to compare the instructions found in sutra on vipasyana and those found in Kagyu mahamudra.
Here are examples from Mahamudra the Moonlight. If required I can copy here the various quotes.
yes that would be the point. I think what you're quoting here is the text, not the quotations in the text?
The only thing Astus is pointing out here, which he has already done, is the intellectual view of sūtra and tantra is the same. No one disputes this.
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:20 pm
The Bodhichittavivarana expounds:
Though the Bodhicittavivarana is actually commentarial text on the Akṣobhyavajra section of the Guhysamāja tantra, and is thus, a tantric commentary, not a sūtric commentary. It also is unlikely to be composed by Nāgārjuna I, though that hardly matters.
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:23 pmthe intellectual view of sūtra and tantra is the same.
Does that include the part where for instance one needs to establish for oneself, not just through reasoning but also directly, that the mind is not established in the three times?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by PeterC »

Astus wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:20 pm The Sutralamkara....
You mean, presumably, the Maitreyanatha text that isn't a sutra?
The Bodhichittavivarana...
That would be the Bodhicittavivarana of Nagarjuna which is also not a sutra?
The first Bhavanakrama...
...of Kamalashila, which was also not a sutra?

Apologies for the pedantry, but you're making my point for me here.
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Astus »

PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:58 pmApologies for the pedantry, but you're making my point for me here.
They're sutrayana teachings. And directly from sutras:
Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 189-190 wrote: Many similar passages are found in the scriptures. Searching for the mind through a contemplative analysis – even though [the mind] is not composed of any substance – serves the purpose of realizing that the mind is empty of an innate essence. The Bhavanakrama quotes the Phakpa Könchoktrin (Aryaratnamegha):

If those who meditate on the void analyze every discursive thought and every joyous contemplative state, they will realize that everything is void [free from an essence]. If they examine what the mind is, they will realize that it is void. If they search for the essence of the investigating mind, they will realize that it is also void. By realizing this, they will elevate themselves to inmost purity, detached from the mark [of duality].

Concerning the search for or examination of the mind, the Dharmadhatuprakrtyasambhedanirdesa of the Ratnakuta states:

[The incarnatemonk said:] O venerable ones, examine your mind in order to determine if it is identical with what has been designated as blue, yellow, red, white, maroon, or a crystal shade, or if it is pure, impure, eternal, impermanent, material, or immaterial.
They [the multitude of monks] replied: O venerable one, the mind is formless, undemonstrable, without appearance, intangible, ground less, and invisible.
Thereupon the incarnate monk spoke: O venerable ones, concerning the mind which is formless, undemonstrable,without appearance, intangible, groundless, and invisible, can it be conceived as dwelling inside, outside, or in between?
The monks replied: No sir, this is not so.
The incarnate monk asked: Venerable ones, if the mind is formless, undemonstrable, without appearance, intangible, groundless, and in - visible, then there is nothing to observe inside, outside, or in-between. Do you suppose that it has not evolved as a perfect reality?
They replied: No sir, this is not so.

The Ratnakuta says:

The search for the mind should be conducted thus: What is a lustful mind, a hateful mind, or an ignorant mind? Has the mind emerged in the past, does it do so in the present, or will it do so in the future? Very well, you should contemplate the fact that the past mind has ceased to exist, that the future mind has yet to arise, and that the present mind does not endure. O, Osung (Kasyapa), the mind cannot be perceived as dwelling inside, outside, or even in-between. O, Osung, concerning the nature of mind, there is nothing to investigate, nothing to demonstrate, nothing to support, nothing to make it appear, and nothing of visible form.

Again, the Buddha explains in the Ratnakuta:

O, Osung, one does not find the mind through a complete search.Whatever is undiscoverable cannot be conceived. Whatever is inconceivable did not arise in the past, nor will it in the future, nor does it arise at the present time. That which is neither past, nor future, nor present indeed transcends the three periods of time. That which so transcends the three periods of time cannot be construed as either existing or nonexisting.

The Ratnakuta-sutra states:

He who searches for the mind cannot find it inside or outside of himself, or collectively both outside and inside. He can neither find it in his psycho physical aggregates, in the elemental realms, nor in the sense faculties. Then, because he cannot find the mind, he explores inwardly the stream of his mind with the assumption that a thought arises from a perceptive image. He contemplates whether a perceptive image and mind exist distinctly from one another or whether they are identical. If the image is separate from the mind, then there are two kinds of mind. If the image is the mind itself, then how can the mind “see” the mind, because the mind cannot “see” the mind itself.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:32 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:23 pmthe intellectual view of sūtra and tantra is the same.
Does that include the part where for instance one needs to establish for oneself, not just through reasoning but also directly, that the mind is not established in the three times?
What do you mean by "the mind is not established in the three times?"
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that name does not exist."
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Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:03 pmWhat do you mean by "the mind is not established in the three times?"
'In this way, when the identity of the mind is specifically examined by wisdom,in the ultimate sense it is perceived neither within nor without. It is also not perceived in the absence of both. Neither the mind of the past, nor that of the future, nor that of the present, is perceived. When ·the mind is born, it comes from nowhere, and when it ceases it goes nowhere because it is inapprehensible, undemonstrable, and non-physical. If you ask, "What is the entity of that which is inapprehensible, undemonstrable; and non-physical?" the Heap of jewels states: "O Kashyapa, when the mind is thoroughly sought, it cannot be found. What is not found Cannot be perceived. And what is not perceived is neither past nor future nor present." Through such analysis, the beginning of the mind is ultimately not seen, the end of the mind is ultimately not seen, and the middle of the mind is ultimately not seen.'
(Stages of Meditation, p 131-132)

'If you wish to recognize clearly the non-dwelling mind, then during your meditation just be aware that your mind does not think about any object or hold on to any dualities, such as good and evil, etc. Since past things are already past, you should not think about them anymore; and, thus, any thought about the past vanishes. This is known as being without the past. Furthermore, since future things have not yet arrived, you should neither seek nor wish for them; and, thus, any thought of the future vanishes. This is known as being without the future. Finally, since present things are already present, you should not grasp them nor allow a thought of love or hate to arise; and, thus, any thought about the present vanishes. This is known as being without the present. In summary, if no thought about these three time periods arises, then the three time periods do not exist. If a thought of moving arises, do not follow it; and the thought of moving will vanish. If a thought of dwelling arises, do not follow it; and the thought of dwelling will vanish.'
(Treatise On Entering The Tao of Sudden Enlightenment)

'Rest in a state of clarity and naturalness. Rest relaxed, without tightness. Do not examine or analyze good and bad. Do not have doubts about what is or isn't. When thoughts appear, do not follow after their numerous appearances. Rest completely, like a sheaf of hay that has had its string cut. Rest. relaxed, in natural consciousness. Past thoughts have ceased, the future ones have not arisen. In this relaxed in-between state of the present, it's taught:
That mind is no mind ; the mind's nature is luminosity.
Just this mind alone, which is completely empty, clear, aware, and lucid, is what is called the perfection of wisdom, luminosity, mahamudra, dzokchen, and dharmakaya.'

(Thr Unrivaled Instructions of Shang Rinpoche, in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 77)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:03 pmWhat do you mean by "the mind is not established in the three times?"
'In this way, when the identity of the mind is specifically examined by wisdom,in the ultimate sense it is perceived neither within nor without. It is also not perceived in the absence of both. Neither the mind of the past, nor that of the future, nor that of the present, is perceived. When ·the mind is born, it comes from nowhere, and when it ceases it goes nowhere because it is inapprehensible, undemonstrable, and non-physical. If you ask, "What is the entity of that which is inapprehensible, undemonstrable; and non-physical?" the Heap of jewels states: "O Kashyapa, when the mind is thoroughly sought, it cannot be found. What is not found Cannot be perceived. And what is not perceived is neither past nor future nor present." Through such analysis, the beginning of the mind is ultimately not seen, the end of the mind is ultimately not seen, and the middle of the mind is ultimately not seen.'
(Stages of Meditation, p 131-132)

'If you wish to recognize clearly the non-dwelling mind, then during your meditation just be aware that your mind does not think about any object or hold on to any dualities, such as good and evil, etc. Since past things are already past, you should not think about them anymore; and, thus, any thought about the past vanishes. This is known as being without the past. Furthermore, since future things have not yet arrived, you should neither seek nor wish for them; and, thus, any thought of the future vanishes. This is known as being without the future. Finally, since present things are already present, you should not grasp them nor allow a thought of love or hate to arise; and, thus, any thought about the present vanishes. This is known as being without the present. In summary, if no thought about these three time periods arises, then the three time periods do not exist. If a thought of moving arises, do not follow it; and the thought of moving will vanish. If a thought of dwelling arises, do not follow it; and the thought of dwelling will vanish.'
(Treatise On Entering The Tao of Sudden Enlightenment)
The introduction is not in the analysis.
'Rest in a state of clarity and naturalness. Rest relaxed, without tightness. Do not examine or analyze good and bad. Do not have doubts about what is or isn't. When thoughts appear, do not follow after their numerous appearances. Rest completely, like a sheaf of hay that has had its string cut. Rest. relaxed, in natural consciousness. Past thoughts have ceased, the future ones have not arisen. In this relaxed in-between state of the present, it's taught:
That mind is no mind ; the mind's nature is luminosity.
Just this mind alone, which is completely empty, clear, aware, and lucid, is what is called the perfection of wisdom, luminosity, mahamudra, dzokchen, and dharmakaya.'

(Thr Unrivaled Instructions of Shang Rinpoche, in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 77)
The introduction is not in the verbal instruction.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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