Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Nalanda
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Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Nalanda »

Just curious if you see dharmakaya and/or buddhanature as atman/brahman.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

No
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Dharmakaya yes, Atman no.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Nicholas2727
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Nalanda wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:15 am Just curious if you see dharmakaya and/or buddhanature as atman/brahman.
No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman. Even Dolpopa/Jonang do not view Buddhanature in this way. One of my teachers refers to true being as in the verb, not as a being.
Malcolm
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Malcolm »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am
Nalanda wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:15 am Just curious if you see dharmakaya and/or buddhanature as atman/brahman.
No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman. Even Dolpopa/Jonang do not view Buddhanature in this way. One of my teachers refers to true being as in the verb, not as a being.
It falls apart in the face of Nagarjuna’s kind of analysis:

“Apart from whatever has been or has not been, there no [present] being.”
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am

No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman.
Apparently the Karma Kagyu lama Khenpo Tsultrim thinks Shentong and Advaita Vedanta are similar in their view.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 am
Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am

No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman.
Apparently the Karma Kagyu lama Khenpo Tsultrim thinks Shentong and Advaita Vedanta are similar in their view.
Yes, structurally speaking, in so far as both propose that the ultimate and relative are mutually exxclusive. But he did not agree that the content or the result was the same.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
Nicholas2727
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:10 am
Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am
Nalanda wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:15 am Just curious if you see dharmakaya and/or buddhanature as atman/brahman.
No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman. Even Dolpopa/Jonang do not view Buddhanature in this way. One of my teachers refers to true being as in the verb, not as a being.
It falls apart in the face of Nagarjuna’s kind of analysis:

“Apart from whatever has been or has not been, there no [present] being.”
Yes, I personally can't debate this point but thought it was worth mentioning. Helped me avoid the idea of Shentong being a self or soul.

Could you clarify what Nagarjuna means by this quote tho? It seems he is saying "something" is there or present.

"Regarding the sutras that teach emptiness, as many as were taught by the Victor, By al of them afflictions are reversed. But Buddha Nature is never refuted in them... Within the afflictions, primordial wisdom abides as immaculate Suchness." - In Praise of the Dharmadhatu
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

"Regarding the sutras that teach emptiness, as many as were taught by the Victor, By al of them afflictions are reversed. But Buddha Nature is never refuted in them... Within the afflictions, primordial wisdom abides as immaculate Suchness." - In Praise of the Dharmadhatu
It’s not universally accepted that this book was written by the same Nagarjuna. If it was, then I personally am shocked.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Nicholas2727
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:06 am
"Regarding the sutras that teach emptiness, as many as were taught by the Victor, By al of them afflictions are reversed. But Buddha Nature is never refuted in them... Within the afflictions, primordial wisdom abides as immaculate Suchness." - In Praise of the Dharmadhatu
It’s not universally accepted that this book was written by the same Nagarjuna. If it was, then I personally am shocked.
I was unaware of this. I looked at other threads and it seem that there is no mention of this text by other Indian authors and other historical evidence that it was written much later. Interesting!
Malcolm
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Malcolm »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:56 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:06 am
"Regarding the sutras that teach emptiness, as many as were taught by the Victor, By al of them afflictions are reversed. But Buddha Nature is never refuted in them... Within the afflictions, primordial wisdom abides as immaculate Suchness." - In Praise of the Dharmadhatu
It’s not universally accepted that this book was written by the same Nagarjuna. If it was, then I personally am shocked.
I was unaware of this. I looked at other threads and it seem that there is no mention of this text by other Indian authors and other historical evidence that it was written much later. Interesting!
There are three hundred texts attributed to Nāgārjuna in the tengyur. Very few could actually have been composed by Nāgārjuna I.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 am
Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am

No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman.
Apparently the Karma Kagyu lama Khenpo Tsultrim thinks Shentong and Advaita Vedanta are similar in their view.
Cite a source please?
There can always be similarities depending on the context. A mouse and an elephant are more similar than they are different. But, they are definitely very different.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 am
Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am

No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman.
Apparently the Karma Kagyu lama Khenpo Tsultrim thinks Shentong and Advaita Vedanta are similar in their view.
I think you are leaving out the other part of this discussion where he says something like “but they have no Buddha’s”. Iirc the purported conversation this came from I don’t recall it as being an endorsement of Advaita Vedanta.
Don’t you see what’s wrong with the world today? Oh Everybody wants somebody to be their own piece of clay.

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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:24 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 am
Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am

No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman.
Apparently the Karma Kagyu lama Khenpo Tsultrim thinks Shentong and Advaita Vedanta are similar in their view.
I think you are leaving out the other part of this discussion where he says something like “but they have no Buddha’s”. Iirc the purported conversation this came from I don’t recall it as being an endorsement of Advaita Vedanta.
Correct.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:01 pm
Cite a source please?
A conversation I had with Khenpo in 1992 at the Newton Dharmadhātu, when he was teaching a program there.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by lhaksam.dorje »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 am
Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am

No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman.
Apparently the Karma Kagyu lama Khenpo Tsultrim thinks Shentong and Advaita Vedanta are similar in their view.
I have often wondered about this. Maybe he's talking about experiential view...the view experienced by the meditator in meditation, before he/she arises from meditation and puts a whole lot of labels on things for the purpose of talking about it or explaining it to others.
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

lhaksam.dorje wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:39 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 am
Nicholas2727 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am

No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman.
Apparently the Karma Kagyu lama Khenpo Tsultrim thinks Shentong and Advaita Vedanta are similar in their view.
I have often wondered about this. Maybe he's talking about experiential view...the view experienced by the meditator in meditation, before he/she arises from meditation and puts a whole lot of labels on things for the purpose of talking about it or explaining it to others.
In his seminal book “Progressive Stages Of Meditation on Emptiness” he remarks that “All forms of Mahayana claim to sit in uncontrived emptiness.” That leads me to believe how you talk about it isn’t all that important.

I think Khenpo Tsultrim bases his view on texts like The Uttaratantra. However what he bases his meditations and experiences on is another matter.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Anders
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Anders »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:49 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:01 pm
Cite a source please?
A conversation I had with Khenpo in 1992 at the Newton Dharmadhātu, when he was teaching a program there.
They are quite similar. And why not? Shankara was greatly inspired by Nagarjuna.

I think Shankara sums up the pivotal difference himself quite well. If only Nagarjuna had admitted that there really is an existent deathless consciousness which is one's true self then he'd have gotten everything right. Oh well.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
Malcolm
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Malcolm »

Anders wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:27 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:49 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:01 pm
Cite a source please?
A conversation I had with Khenpo in 1992 at the Newton Dharmadhātu, when he was teaching a program there.
They are quite similar. And why not? Shankara was greatly inspired by Nagarjuna.
Gzhan stong is not the view of Nagarjuna.
"Death stands before all who are born."
— Ācārya Aśvaghoṣa
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:47 am
Anders wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:27 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:49 pm

A conversation I had with Khenpo in 1992 at the Newton Dharmadhātu, when he was teaching a program there.
They are quite similar. And why not? Shankara was greatly inspired by Nagarjuna.
Gzhan stong is not the view of Nagarjuna.
True. No argument there!
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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