Scientifically exploring Thukdam

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reiun
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Scientifically exploring Thukdam

Post by reiun »

[Mod note:] This topic was split from here:
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 70#p615570




pemachophel wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:53 pm It is very common in my experience for a Lama's close disciples to try to keep the news of His or Her entering thug dam secret until the thugdam is completed. I think that is what H.H.'s disciples were trying to do, but somehow the news slipped out and then it was too late.
It is a shame that this instance of thugdam cannot be studied, as H.H.S. Dalai Lama has specifically requested:

"Whatever is going on inside thukdam meditators, His Holiness would dearly like to know. He’s been asking scientists to study the mysterious state for nearly 20 years, with little apparent success"

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/thukdam-project/
reiun
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Re: Dodrupchen is in Thukdam

Post by reiun »

"Described as rigorous and long-term, the Thukdam Project combines the brain power of neuroscientists, forensic anthropologists, doctors, psychologists, philosophers, and teams of monk-researchers in India. An inaugural report, which Davidson describes as the first-ever scientific study into thukdam, was published this January in the journal Frontiers in Psychology. The takeaway: A negative finding.

Davidson and his colleagues had hypothesized that an electroencephalogram might detect residual brain activity in thukdam practitioners. But, as best as the researchers could tell, none of 13 thukdam subjects in the study, all of whom had been medically dead for at least 26 hours, demonstrated any discernible brainwaves.

After the study was published this winter, Davidson said, a few colleagues politely suggested studying thukdam was a waste of time."

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/thukdam-project/

If such studies expose crackpot supernaturalism, then a more rational Buddhism perhaps can be appreciated.
Norwegian
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Re: Dodrupchen is in Thukdam

Post by Norwegian »

reiun wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:33 am "Described as rigorous and long-term, the Thukdam Project combines the brain power of neuroscientists, forensic anthropologists, doctors, psychologists, philosophers, and teams of monk-researchers in India. An inaugural report, which Davidson describes as the first-ever scientific study into thukdam, was published this January in the journal Frontiers in Psychology. The takeaway: A negative finding.

Davidson and his colleagues had hypothesized that an electroencephalogram might detect residual brain activity in thukdam practitioners. But, as best as the researchers could tell, none of 13 thukdam subjects in the study, all of whom had been medically dead for at least 26 hours, demonstrated any discernible brainwaves.

After the study was published this winter, Davidson said, a few colleagues politely suggested studying thukdam was a waste of time."

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/thukdam-project/

If such studies expose crackpot supernaturalism, then a more rational Buddhism perhaps can be appreciated.
Or, the study is terribly flawed from the beginning, thinking that it's all about the brain, when it really isn't.
reiun
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Re: Dodrupchen is in Thukdam

Post by reiun »

Norwegian wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:35 am
reiun wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:33 am "Described as rigorous and long-term, the Thukdam Project combines the brain power of neuroscientists, forensic anthropologists, doctors, psychologists, philosophers, and teams of monk-researchers in India. An inaugural report, which Davidson describes as the first-ever scientific study into thukdam, was published this January in the journal Frontiers in Psychology. The takeaway: A negative finding.

Davidson and his colleagues had hypothesized that an electroencephalogram might detect residual brain activity in thukdam practitioners. But, as best as the researchers could tell, none of 13 thukdam subjects in the study, all of whom had been medically dead for at least 26 hours, demonstrated any discernible brainwaves.

After the study was published this winter, Davidson said, a few colleagues politely suggested studying thukdam was a waste of time."

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/thukdam-project/

If such studies expose crackpot supernaturalism, then a more rational Buddhism perhaps can be appreciated.
Or, the study is terribly flawed from the beginning, thinking that it's all about the brain, when it really isn't.
Yes, it's possible that the Dalai Lama is on the wrong track to encourage such a study.
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Dodrupchen is in Thukdam

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Norwegian wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:35 am
reiun wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:33 am "Described as rigorous and long-term, the Thukdam Project combines the brain power of neuroscientists, forensic anthropologists, doctors, psychologists, philosophers, and teams of monk-researchers in India. An inaugural report, which Davidson describes as the first-ever scientific study into thukdam, was published this January in the journal Frontiers in Psychology. The takeaway: A negative finding.

Davidson and his colleagues had hypothesized that an electroencephalogram might detect residual brain activity in thukdam practitioners. But, as best as the researchers could tell, none of 13 thukdam subjects in the study, all of whom had been medically dead for at least 26 hours, demonstrated any discernible brainwaves.

After the study was published this winter, Davidson said, a few colleagues politely suggested studying thukdam was a waste of time."

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/thukdam-project/

If such studies expose crackpot supernaturalism, then a more rational Buddhism perhaps can be appreciated.
Or, the study is terribly flawed from the beginning, thinking that it's all about the brain, when it really isn't.
That was just one study in a wider project, it seems perfectly appropriate to me. Wouldn't it be much odder to study thukdam and just ignore the brain and the fact that we now have technology to detect subtle activity there? It would seem poorly designed if the entire project was centred only on the brain, but that's not the case.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dodrupchen is in Thukdam

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:30 am
Norwegian wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:35 am
reiun wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:33 am "Described as rigorous and long-term, the Thukdam Project combines the brain power of neuroscientists, forensic anthropologists, doctors, psychologists, philosophers, and teams of monk-researchers in India. An inaugural report, which Davidson describes as the first-ever scientific study into thukdam, was published this January in the journal Frontiers in Psychology. The takeaway: A negative finding.

Davidson and his colleagues had hypothesized that an electroencephalogram might detect residual brain activity in thukdam practitioners. But, as best as the researchers could tell, none of 13 thukdam subjects in the study, all of whom had been medically dead for at least 26 hours, demonstrated any discernible brainwaves.

After the study was published this winter, Davidson said, a few colleagues politely suggested studying thukdam was a waste of time."

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/thukdam-project/

If such studies expose crackpot supernaturalism, then a more rational Buddhism perhaps can be appreciated.
Or, the study is terribly flawed from the beginning, thinking that it's all about the brain, when it really isn't.
That was just one study in a wider project, it seems perfectly appropriate to me. Wouldn't it be much odder to study thukdam and just ignore the brain and the fact that we now have technology to detect subtle activity there? It would seem poorly designed if the entire project was centred only on the brain, but that's not the case.
It is the question of which models one relies on. If you stay within the confines of neurology and its kindred disciplines, what you will learn will be irrelevant to practitioners. If you use neurology et al and want to ground it in another model, you need to prioritise something and then explain how neurology can be included there, and on what terms, and what makes it relevant and useful. People do it all the time, so it is certainly doable, but all the same the doubt remains. Neurology is epiphenomenalist to the bone. Salvaging its methods still begs the question of what it can measure -- and, moreover, what it can measure in terms of another paradigm.

I am happy that HHDL encourages such research, but cannot really see it achieving any breakthrough (such as neurology shaking off epiphenomenalism, which would probably just obliterate it as such. Pop goes the weasel.).

In any case, it would fairly horrible to wish to go against the customs of a tradition so as to study it (as another poster appears to have suggested here). This would be sheer colonialism.
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reiun
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Re: Dodrupchen is in Thukdam

Post by reiun »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:24 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:30 am
Norwegian wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:35 am
Or, the study is terribly flawed from the beginning, thinking that it's all about the brain, when it really isn't.
That was just one study in a wider project, it seems perfectly appropriate to me. Wouldn't it be much odder to study thukdam and just ignore the brain and the fact that we now have technology to detect subtle activity there? It would seem poorly designed if the entire project was centred only on the brain, but that's not the case.
It is the question of which models one relies on. If you stay within the confines of neurology and its kindred disciplines, what you will learn will be irrelevant to practitioners. If you use neurology et al and want to ground it in another model, you need to prioritise something and then explain how neurology can be included there, and on what terms, and what makes it relevant and useful. People do it all the time, so it is certainly doable, but all the same the doubt remains. Neurology is epiphenomenalist to the bone. Salvaging its methods still begs the question of what it can measure -- and, moreover, what it can measure in terms of another paradigm.

I am happy that HHDL encourages such research, but cannot really see it achieving any breakthrough (such as neurology shaking off epiphenomenalism, which would probably just obliterate it as such. Pop goes the weasel.).

In any case, it would fairly horrible to wish to go against the customs of a tradition so as to study it (as another poster appears to have suggested here). This would be sheer colonialism.
"Cultural sensitivities provide another set of complications, Tidwell said. Bodies are usually observed for three days to determine if thukdam will set in; and people believed to be in thukdam are rarely touched, for fear of disturbing the mind inside. The Thukdam Project is trying to obtain advanced permission from practitioners to test them upon death, but there’s a cultural reticence to talking about spiritual achievements, explained Tidwell. “A lot of our great practitioners don’t want to claim that they will go into thukdam.”

But Tidwell and others have some help. They’ve enlisted monk-researchers who, inspired by the Dalai Lama, studied Western medicine at places like Emory University and are now taking those tools back to their communities. “It’s not the Westerners who are doing the measuring and poking and prodding,” Tidwell said with a laugh. “It’s the monastics who trained at Emory.”

Those monks may be very busy. Tidwell said the Thukdam Project is working on a study of how bodies decompose in different climatic conditions in India, and Dunne said he wants to look outside the brain for signs of post-mortem consciousness."
Malcolm
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Re: Dodrupchen is in Thukdam

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:12 pm Tidwell said the Thukdam Project is working on a study of how bodies decompose in different climatic conditions in India, and Dunne said he wants to look outside the brain for signs of post-mortem consciousness."
They are barking up the wrong tree. I know Dunne and Tidwell, they at least know Tibetan and can check sources. But there are problems they will encounter such as the distinction made in Dzogchen texts between rig pa, which exits the body through the eyes, and mind, which exits the body through the fontanelle. Moreover, there is the fact that unlike other tantric traditions, the highest level Dzogchen practitioners do not remain in thukdam for many days. The less developed your practice is, the longer your thukdam will be.
reiun
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Re: Dodrupchen is in Thukdam

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:14 pm
reiun wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:12 pm Tidwell said the Thukdam Project is working on a study of how bodies decompose in different climatic conditions in India, and Dunne said he wants to look outside the brain for signs of post-mortem consciousness."
They are barking up the wrong tree. I know Dunne and Tidwell, they at least know Tibetan and can check sources. But there are problems they will encounter such as the distinction made in Dzogchen texts between rig pa, which exits the body through the eyes, and mind, which exits the body through the fontanelle. Moreover, there is the fact that unlike other tantric traditions, the highest level Dzogchen practitioners do not remain in thukdam for many days. The less developed your practice is, the longer your thukdam will be.
I'm guessing that mind is said to exit through the anterior fontanelle, rather than any of the other five? From what I have researched, this fontanelle evidently stays open longest (average closure is between 13 - 24 months), and is thus a pediatric feature. Not required to be open for exit of mind, as I understand your comment.
WeiHan
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Re: Scientifically exploring Thukdam

Post by WeiHan »

I would suggest studying the channel effects in tantric practitioners is a more doable task than to study thukdam. For an accomplished tantric practitioners, I have heard that there are still residual channel effects in the body even many days after death. And I wonder why there isn't more study on "easier" topic like samadhi? Are there practitioners that can remain in samadhi for at least a week? That will be quite ground breaking even to confirm this fact to the world.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Dodrupchen is in Thukdam

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

reiun wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:33 am If such studies expose crackpot supernaturalism, then a more rational Buddhism perhaps can be appreciated.
Where, among these purely physical components, does crackpot supernaturalism exist?
Or, another way of asking is, how do these purely physical elements produce crackpot supernaturalism?

Brain:
Water 77 to 78 %
fats 10 to 12 %
Protein 8%
Carbohydrate 1%
Soluble organic substances 2%
Inorganic salts 1%

(A rational answer will be appreciated)
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Scientifically exploring Thukdam

Post by Caoimhghín »

Some bodies have more carbs than others. A rational answer.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: Dodrupchen is in Thukdam

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:14 pm
reiun wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:12 pm Tidwell said the Thukdam Project is working on a study of how bodies decompose in different climatic conditions in India, and Dunne said he wants to look outside the brain for signs of post-mortem consciousness."
They are barking up the wrong tree. I know Dunne and Tidwell, they at least know Tibetan and can check sources. But there are problems they will encounter such as the distinction made in Dzogchen texts between rig pa, which exits the body through the eyes, and mind, which exits the body through the fontanelle. Moreover, there is the fact that unlike other tantric traditions, the highest level Dzogchen practitioners do not remain in thukdam for many days. The less developed your practice is, the longer your thukdam will be.
I'm guessing that mind is said to exit through the anterior fontanelle, rather than any of the other five? From what I have researched, this fontanelle evidently stays open longest (average closure is between 13 - 24 months), and is thus a pediatric feature. Not required to be open for exit of mind, as I understand your comment.
The purpose of phowa practice is to open a tiny opening, into which a straw is inserted as a sign of success. But it’s not entirely necessary for it to be open.
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