Nyingthiks

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Passing By
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Nyingthiks

Post by Passing By »

Besides the Khandro and Vima Nyingthiks what are the main Nyingthik cycles in Nyingma?

The big three are Nyingthik Yabzhi, Gongpa Zangthal and Chetsun Nyingthik right?

Also how do you tell if a cycle is Nyingthik (as opposed to other divisions of Menngagde) or not since just having the word in the name is not a sure indicator and they may not be as detailed as the main three above? Are cycles like Dudjom Saraha Nyingthik and Khandro Thuktik considered as Dzogchen Nyingthik?
Malcolm
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Re: Nyingthiks

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:15 pm Besides the Khandro and Vima Nyingthiks what are the main Nyingthik cycles in Nyingma?

The big three are Nyingthik Yabzhi, Gongpa Zangthal and Chetsun Nyingthik right?

Also how do you tell if a cycle is Nyingthik (as opposed to other divisions of Menngagde) or not since just having the word in the name is not a sure indicator and they may not be as detailed as the main three above? Are cycles like Dudjom Saraha Nyingthik and Khandro Thuktik considered as Dzogchen Nyingthik?
The term "snying thig" in actuality refers to the teaching of the Seventeen Tantras, that is where the term comes from. Of the many teachings called "snying thig," only the Vima Snying thig, Bla ma yang thig, and the Zab mo yang thig are solely devoted to the teachings of the Seventeen Tantras. The mKha' 'gro Snying thig is based in the klong gsal tantra, which is sort of a compilation of the key topics of the Seventeen Tantras. Then there is the Ati zab don of Terdag Lingpa, this is about is stripped down a Dzogchen Snying thig cycle as one is likely to find. Most of the others, including the dgongs pa zang thal, focus mainly on the teachings of the Seventeen Tantras, but have other more elaborate cycles for intermediate practitioners.

All the other snying thigs have supporting practices derived principally from Anuyoga, but their dzogchen teachings are based on the utterly secret unsurpassed cycle, so they can be included in "snying thig". Otherwise, the term "snying thig" has become kind of a popular name.
Passing By
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Re: Nyingthiks

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Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:46 pm
Passing By wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:15 pm Besides the Khandro and Vima Nyingthiks what are the main Nyingthik cycles in Nyingma?

The big three are Nyingthik Yabzhi, Gongpa Zangthal and Chetsun Nyingthik right?

Also how do you tell if a cycle is Nyingthik (as opposed to other divisions of Menngagde) or not since just having the word in the name is not a sure indicator and they may not be as detailed as the main three above? Are cycles like Dudjom Saraha Nyingthik and Khandro Thuktik considered as Dzogchen Nyingthik?
The term "snying thig" in actuality refers to the teaching of the Seventeen Tantras, that is where the term comes from. Of the many teachings called "snying thig," only the Vima Snying thig, Bla ma yang thig, and the Zab mo yang thig are solely devoted to the teachings of the Seventeen Tantras. The mKha' 'gro Snying thig is based in the klong gsal tantra, which is sort of a compilation of the key topics of the Seventeen Tantras. Then there is the Ati zab don of Terdag Lingpa, this is about is stripped down a Dzogchen Snying thig cycle as one is likely to find. Most of the others, including the dgongs pa zang thal, focus mainly on the teachings of the Seventeen Tantras, but have other more elaborate cycles for intermediate practitioners.

All the other snying thigs have supporting practices derived principally from Anuyoga, but their dzogchen teachings are based on the utterly secret unsurpassed cycle, so they can be included in "snying thig". Otherwise, the term "snying thig" has become kind of a popular name.

I see thanks. So that means even cycles like Konchok Chidu and Dudjom Troma technically count even if the bulk is Anuyoga based as long as trekcho and thogal practice are included?

One more thing, is there actually any difference in efficacy for the individual person between the solely 17 Tantras focused nyingthiks like the Vima and the more commonly practised cycles that approach trekcho/thogal using Anuyoga?
Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Nyingthiks

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Passing By wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:22 am One more thing, is there actually any difference in efficacy for the individual person between the solely 17 Tantras focused nyingthiks like the Vima and the more commonly practised cycles that approach trekcho/thogal using Anuyoga?
I’m not sure what you mean “approach trekchö and tögal using anuyoga.” Anuyoga is for *discovering* vidya, but in trekchö and tögal you’re solely working with vidya. Trekchö is trekchö and tögal is tögal regardless of cycle because in a real sense they are not contained in any cycle—they are your real primordial nature and the instructions simply point to it.

The difference between actual Nyingthig cycles, in terms of instruction in the two main practices, lies in how concise versus how elaborate their explanations are and what supplementary upadeshas they contain to clarify and support one’s discovery of, and continuation in, one’s vidya. But all the Nyingthig cycles contain what one would class as technically complete essential instructions on both main practices.
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Passing By
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Re: Nyingthiks

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Pema Rigdzin wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:50 pm
Passing By wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:22 am One more thing, is there actually any difference in efficacy for the individual person between the solely 17 Tantras focused nyingthiks like the Vima and the more commonly practised cycles that approach trekcho/thogal using Anuyoga?
I’m not sure what you mean “approach trekchö and tögal using anuyoga.” Anuyoga is for *discovering* vidya
That's what I meant. Approach as in method used to point towards or familiarize yourself with something (vidya/ knowledge of the natural state in this case, with trekcho being stabilizing recognition of said knowledge. So to approach trekcho through Anuyoga yidam or other methods while trekcho itself begins once you have approached and reached it.)
The difference between actual Nyingthig cycles, in terms of instruction in the two main practices, lies in how concise versus how elaborate their explanations are and what supplementary upadeshas they contain to clarify and support one’s discovery of, and continuation in, one’s vidya. But all the Nyingthig cycles contain what one would class as technically complete essential instructions on both main practices.
Aren't the supplementary pith instructions very important though....
Passing By
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Re: Nyingthiks

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Should clarify also for viewers who might be browsing this thread that I don't mean to imply that yidam is somehow different from trekcho ultimately or something one discards once one becomes confident in rigpa. After all, many lamas teach that the trikaya one visualizes in yidam practice is in the end, basically the essence, nature, compassion triumvirate

Wanted to edit this into the post above but it seems you cannot edit posts after some time
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Re: Nyingthiks

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Passing By wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:22 am
So that means even cycles like Konchok Chidu and Dudjom Troma technically count even if the bulk is Anuyoga based as long as trekcho and thogal practice are included?
The bulk of Konchok Chidu is not Anu Yoga, that is just the most practiced part of that cycle. Khandro Nyingtik also got sadhanas and Longchenpa added some to the Vima Nyingtik in his Lama Yangtik.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Nyingthiks

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Passing By wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:58 am
That's what I meant.
Ah, gotcha.

Passing By wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:58 am
Aren't the supplementary pith instructions very important though....
I’d think of it not like cycles with less exhaustive supplentary upadeshas are lacking and more like one might need more due to one’s own capacity. Kinda like how those of the utmost capacity are said to be able to extrapolate the entire meaning from a text just by reading the title; most of us need not only the root text in its entirety but also the commentary of a qualified lama. Also, it’s not truly necessary for the guidance manual of a given cycle to be exhaustive; no matter how exhaustive it is, one’s guru is always going to give clarifying and supplementary upadeshas and can do this whether a manual is concise or lengthy. It’s in these upadeshas from our guru that we find our realization.
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Malcolm
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Re: Nyingthiks

Post by Malcolm »

Pema Rigdzin wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:42 pm It’s in these upadeshas from our guru that we find our realization.
Yes, as the Tantra Without Syllables states:

"The dharmakāya is encountered in the intimate instructions."
Passing By
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Re: Nyingthiks

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Pema Rigdzin wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:42 pm It’s in these upadeshas from our guru that we find our realization.
True that....Just that I thought Nyingma teachers tended to base their experiential clarifications on these "in text" upadeshas since that's how my Nyingma teachers (most, not all. Some are very free in their teaching) tended to teach, by commenting on texts and basing their commentary on commonly used examples for pointing out, while Drikung and Bon teachers tend to be less (those whom I received teachings from obviously....not speaking for everyone here) "by the book" with their own experiential commentary so I thought for Nyingma, those "in manual" upadeshas were critical
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Re: Nyingthiks

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Passing By wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:56 am
Pema Rigdzin wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:42 pm It’s in these upadeshas from our guru that we find our realization.
True that....Just that I thought Nyingma teachers tended to base their experiential clarifications on these "in text" upadeshas since that's how my Nyingma teachers (most, not all. Some are very free in their teaching) tended to teach, by commenting on texts and basing their commentary on commonly used examples for pointing out, while Drikung and Bon teachers tend to be less (those whom I received teachings from obviously....not speaking for everyone here) "by the book" with their own experiential commentary so I thought for Nyingma, those "in manual" upadeshas were critical
Well, yeah sometimes their oral upadeshas and clarifications are spontaneous utterings of their own knowledge and realization, and other times they choose to cite other written teachings as supplementary upadeshas; sometimes they pull these from the tantras themselves and/or other guidance manuals and commentaries, etc. Sometimes they also share spontaneous oral gems they received from their own gurus.
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