Who can give Refuge?

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Karma Dorje »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:15 pm My understanding is that refuge is taken, not given. "I take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha." While a suitably-qualified teacher can give explanations and committments, both of which can be beneficial, refuge is freely available to all.

When I was ready to take refuge, there were no teachers available in the area, nor even, to my knowledge, any other Buddhists. So I visualized an assembly of Bodhisattvas, and took refuge with them as witnesses.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
A small point, but the original form is “go for refuge”.

Buddha sharanam gaccami
Dharma sharanam gaccami
Sangha sharanam gaccami

We aren’t taking refuge, like under a bus shelter in the rain. We go for refuge by practicing the path.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
Malcolm
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Malcolm »

Karma Dorje wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:27 pm
We aren’t taking refuge, like under a bus shelter in the rain. We go for refuge by practicing the path.
Correct, we go for refuge, we don't take anything. In Tibetan: "skyabs [refuge] su [for/to] 'gro [go]."
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KathyLauren
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by KathyLauren »

Karma Dorje wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:27 pm We aren’t taking refuge, like under a bus shelter in the rain. We go for refuge by practicing the path.
Sorry, that sounds like a semantic quibble. Going for refuge under a bus shelter and taking refuge under a bus shelter are the same thing: an action we do volitionally to get shelter from the rain.

Similarly, going for refuge in the Three Jewels and taking refuge in the Three Jewels are the same thing: a volitional action we do to get relief from suffering. It is not something bestowed upon us from outside.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

KathyLauren wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:17 pm
Karma Dorje wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:27 pm We aren’t taking refuge, like under a bus shelter in the rain. We go for refuge by practicing the path.
Sorry, that sounds like a semantic quibble. Going for refuge under a bus shelter and taking refuge under a bus shelter are the same thing: an action we do volitionally to get shelter from the rain.

Similarly, going for refuge in the Three Jewels and taking refuge in the Three Jewels are the same thing: a volitional action we do to get relief from suffering. It is not something bestowed upon us from outside.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
That was my first thought. In that sense, it’s basically the same thing.

But one might also make a distinction between the process of seeking, and the goal of arriving.
In other words, to go for refuge is to see shelter and head for it, and to take refuge is to then secure oneself within that shelter. If it’s raining, and you see a covered bus stop down the street, going for refuge is the act of running towards it. Taking refuge is the act of standing inside of it.

I don’t know that such a distinction necessarily translates to the concept of going for and taking refuge in the three jewels. On the one hand, seeking refuge in the three jewels is a continuous process. You might say it’s how a Buddhist practitioner filters life’s experiences. Whenever the storm of new suffering arises, we again see the shelter, and go for it. In that sense, the emphasis is on the ‘going’.

At the same time, there is also an emphasis is on who and in what we take refuge, decidedly. Continuing with the storm analogy, it’s not as though when a storm comes that sometimes we will head for a covered bus stop, another time we will run under a tree (which could be dangerous) or that another time we will just whip out an umbrella (which may collapse in heavy wind). We know that the sturdy shelter is the best.

Likewise, in this sense, ‘taking refuge in…’ as opposed to ‘going for…’ implies that one is decided on which path is best for them. So, one won’t be practicing to be free from self-grasping and attachment on Monday, and then on Tuesday be praying to a God for fame and fortune.

“I take refuge in…” in this sense is an expression of commitment. It’s like saying, “I will always take refuge in…”

I’m sure either phrase will work.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Berry
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Berry »

Here are some teachings about Taking Refuge, by H.E. Tai Situpa:

http://kagyu.org.za/teachings/on-taking ... ai-situpa/


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Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa
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