Who can give Refuge?

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KonchogUrgyenNyima
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Who can give Refuge?

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Simple question. Who is authorized to give refuge to people? Posting in nyingma, since that is where I practice. Is this the sort of thing that varies between schools/lineages? Or is it more static?

Thanks in advance
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Ayu
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Ayu »

I'm not sure. Interesting question.
Those who gave refuge in my environment are Rinpoches and very experienced Geshes. Not ordinary monks and nuns.
But IDK the exact guidelines.
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by KathyLauren »

My understanding is that refuge is taken, not given. "I take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha." While a suitably-qualified teacher can give explanations and committments, both of which can be beneficial, refuge is freely available to all.

When I was ready to take refuge, there were no teachers available in the area, nor even, to my knowledge, any other Buddhists. So I visualized an assembly of Bodhisattvas, and took refuge with them as witnesses.

Om mani padme hum
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:15 pm My understanding is that refuge is taken, not given. "I take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha." While a suitably-qualified teacher can give explanations and committments, both of which can be beneficial, refuge is freely available to all.

When I was ready to take refuge, there were no teachers available in the area, nor even, to my knowledge, any other Buddhists. So I visualized an assembly of Bodhisattvas, and took refuge with them as witnesses.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
That’s a very good point.
At the same time, for me, even though I considered myself a Buddhist for years before ever getting to meet a monk or lama who could perform a refuge ceremony, in my mind, I needed that “official” stamp. It’s all psychological, of course. And I think it boils down to, “yeah, I know I’m a Buddhist, but does Buddhism recognize me as a Buddhist?”
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Malcolm »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:28 pm Simple question. Who is authorized to give refuge to people? Posting in nyingma, since that is where I practice. Is this the sort of thing that varies between schools/lineages? Or is it more static?

Thanks in advance
Anyone who has has Mahayana refuge vows, and understands the procedure for bestowing refuge vows, can bestow refuge vows. There is no special qualification needed other than that one’s own refuge is intact.

The question is, does one really wish to be granting such vows?
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

My Kagyu Lama said that in order to REALLY give Refuge you have to be able to follow someone's consciousness into the Bardo.
I don't think that happens very often though.
:shrug:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:01 pm My Kagyu Lama said that in order to REALLY give Refuge you have to be able to follow someone's consciousness into the Bardo.
I don't think that happens very often though.
:shrug:
One can take Mahayana refuge and bodhicitta vows without a teacher. One just has to visualize the Buddha and bodhisattvas before one in space. This system is taught in the sutras.
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:08 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:01 pm My Kagyu Lama said that in order to REALLY give Refuge you have to be able to follow someone's consciousness into the Bardo.
I don't think that happens very often though.
:shrug:
One can take Mahayana refuge and bodhicitta vows without a teacher. One just has to visualize the Buddha and bodhisattvas before one in space. This system is taught in the sutras.
Good to know.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:01 pm My Kagyu Lama said that in order to REALLY give Refuge you have to be able to follow someone's consciousness into the Bardo.
I don't think that happens very often though.
:shrug:
This is just an opinion. This is not stated anywhere in sutra.

In the shravakayana, refuge vows must be received from a fully ordained bhikshu, but they only last until death.

Mahayana refuge vows are also lost at death, but since they are connected with bodhicitta, bodhisattva vows last until one attains buddhahood, unless one gives up,the motivation for buddhahood.
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:11 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:01 pm My Kagyu Lama said that in order to REALLY give Refuge you have to be able to follow someone's consciousness into the Bardo.
I don't think that happens very often though.
:shrug:
This is just an opinion. This is not stated anywhere in sutra.
Correct.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:23 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:11 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:01 pm My Kagyu Lama said that in order to REALLY give Refuge you have to be able to follow someone's consciousness into the Bardo.
I don't think that happens very often though.
:shrug:
This is just an opinion. This is not stated anywhere in sutra.
Correct.
Well, the problem with this idea is that guru can’t do anything for you in the bardo, other than recite some prayers and maybe recite the bardo thodrol for you, which you may or may not be aware of in the blooming buzzing confusion of the bardo. If the guru could not pick you up by the neck and liberate you in this life, what makes you think they can do so in bardo? If you’ve received Vajrayana teachings, and you experience the bardo, it’s your fault for not practicing hard enough.
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:57 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:23 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:11 pm

This is just an opinion. This is not stated anywhere in sutra.
Correct.
Well, the problem with this idea is that guru can’t do anything for you in the bardo, other than recite some prayers and maybe recite the bardo thodrol for you, which you may or may not be aware of in the blooming buzzing confusion of the bardo. If the guru could not pick you up by the neck and liberate you in this life, what makes you think they can do so in bardo? If you’ve received Vajrayana teachings, and you experience the bardo, it’s your fault for not practicing hard enough.
There's Guru Yoga in this life, and there's Guru Yoga in the Bardo. Except for the venue they really aren't very different. If your practice of Guru Yoga is strong during life there's no reason it will disappear in the Bardo.

I suspect our ideas of what Guru Yoga entails may be different.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:06 pm
There's Guru Yoga in this life, and there's Guru Yoga in the Bardo. Except for the venue they really aren't very different. If your practice of Guru Yoga is strong during life there's no reason it will disappear in the Bardo.

I suspect our ideas of what Guru Yoga entails may be different.
Probably not.

Sure, one can practice guru yoga in the bardo, but that is not the "guru following you into the bardo." This is a result of your presence of mind which allows you to practice guru yoga in the bardo, and I agree, this is a result of practicing guru yoga in this life with strong diligence and devotion.
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:50 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:28 pm Simple question. Who is authorized to give refuge to people? Posting in nyingma, since that is where I practice. Is this the sort of thing that varies between schools/lineages? Or is it more static?

Thanks in advance
Anyone who has has Mahayana refuge vows, and understands the procedure for bestowing refuge vows, can bestow refuge vows. There is no special qualification needed other than that one’s own refuge is intact.

The question is, does one really wish to be granting such vows?
Hey thanks for the clear answer as always. Why would granting such vows give one pause? Are there responsibilities involved?
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Re: Refuge from the view of Dhammapada

Post by Aemilius »

OK. I intended it [mod note: the quote from Dhammapada - https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 61#p608961] as an answer that it is your own self who attains Refuge by realizing the Four noble truths, i.e. by following and realizing the Dharma. According to Buddha any member of the Sangha can teach you the Dharma. In the Sravakayana sutras even a laywoman can act as a teacher, as in the case of the lay-woman Visakha, who converted her father-in-law, wealthy merchant Migara, into Buddhism. Thereafter she was called "Migara's mother", being his "mother" in the spiritual sense, because she had caused Migara's spiritual birth in Buddhism.
Last edited by Ayu on Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Link added after moving the post to this thread.
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Re: Refuge from the view of Dhammapada

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:25 am OK. I intended it [mod note: the quote from Dhammapada - https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 61#p608961] as an answer that it is your own self who attains Refuge by realizing the Four noble truths, i.e. by following and realizing the Dharma. According to Buddha any member of the Sangha can teach you the Dharma. In the Sravakayana sutras even a laywoman can act as a teacher, as in the case of the lay-woman Visakha, who converted her father-in-law, wealthy merchant Migara, into Buddhism. Thereafter she was called "Migara's mother", being his "mother" in the spiritual sense, because she had caused Migara's spiritual birth in Buddhism.
But in Shravakayana, not everyone can perform the rite of ordaining a male or female upasaka, only a bhikshu can do this. In Mahayana, however this restriction does not apply.
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Toenail »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:50 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:28 pm Simple question. Who is authorized to give refuge to people? Posting in nyingma, since that is where I practice. Is this the sort of thing that varies between schools/lineages? Or is it more static?

Thanks in advance
Anyone who has has Mahayana refuge vows, and understands the procedure for bestowing refuge vows, can bestow refuge vows. There is no special qualification needed other than that one’s own refuge is intact.

The question is, does one really wish to be granting such vows?
Why is this the question? What responsibility etc comes with giving someone refuge vows?
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Toenail wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:50 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:28 pm Simple question. Who is authorized to give refuge to people? Posting in nyingma, since that is where I practice. Is this the sort of thing that varies between schools/lineages? Or is it more static?

Thanks in advance
Anyone who has has Mahayana refuge vows, and understands the procedure for bestowing refuge vows, can bestow refuge vows. There is no special qualification needed other than that one’s own refuge is intact.

The question is, does one really wish to be granting such vows?
Why is this the question? What responsibility etc comes with giving someone refuge vows?
I also would love to know what acharya means here. Can we also bestow the bodhisattva vow? are there any qualifications around this besides the bestower’s own vows being intact?
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Malcolm »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:59 pm
Toenail wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:50 pm

Anyone who has has Mahayana refuge vows, and understands the procedure for bestowing refuge vows, can bestow refuge vows. There is no special qualification needed other than that one’s own refuge is intact.

The question is, does one really wish to be granting such vows?
Why is this the question? What responsibility etc comes with giving someone refuge vows?
I also would love to know what acharya means here. Can we also bestow the bodhisattva vow? are there any qualifications around this besides the bestower’s own vows being intact?
One has to know how to properly conduct the rite. If one bestows refuge vows and bodhisattva vows there is no particular responsibility, but I think it can become kind of an ego trip. Even some Tibetan Lamas will incorrectly claim that having bestowed refuge, now the student has samaya with that teacher and so on. I just think it is better to encourage people to receive refuge and bodhisattva vows from qualified lamas, preferably lineage heads, and among those, bhikṣus like HH Dalai Lama are preferable to upasākas. One should recall that among vajramasters, a bhiḳsu with intact vows is supreme, according to Kalacakra. On the other hand, though this is ideal, life is short, and if one does not want to use the rite of administering refuge and bodhisattva vows to oneself, then any qualified teacher who is willing to give them will do.
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Ayu »

Toenail wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:50 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:28 pm Simple question. Who is authorized to give refuge to people? Posting in nyingma, since that is where I practice. Is this the sort of thing that varies between schools/lineages? Or is it more static?

Thanks in advance
Anyone who has has Mahayana refuge vows, and understands the procedure for bestowing refuge vows, can bestow refuge vows. There is no special qualification needed other than that one’s own refuge is intact.

The question is, does one really wish to be granting such vows?
Why is this the question? What responsibility etc comes with giving someone refuge vows?
And I think the view from the other perspective is relevant as well: the impact on the taker.
Maybe the Rinpoche didn't take a certain responsibility, but the act of taking refuge can have a deep impact on the taker. I remember my teacher's face is somehow woven into the ritual of my taking refuge.

I know people who took refuge again as soon as they found a more authentic teacher. As I'm curious sometimes, I asked a woman after taking refuge for a second time: "And? Was it different this time?"
She said: "It was absolutely different and I'm so happy I asked for it."
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