Who can give Refuge?
- KonchogUrgyenNyima
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Who can give Refuge?
Simple question. Who is authorized to give refuge to people? Posting in nyingma, since that is where I practice. Is this the sort of thing that varies between schools/lineages? Or is it more static?
Thanks in advance
Thanks in advance
Re: Who can give Refuge?
I'm not sure. Interesting question.
Those who gave refuge in my environment are Rinpoches and very experienced Geshes. Not ordinary monks and nuns.
But IDK the exact guidelines.
Those who gave refuge in my environment are Rinpoches and very experienced Geshes. Not ordinary monks and nuns.
But IDK the exact guidelines.
- KathyLauren
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Re: Who can give Refuge?
My understanding is that refuge is taken, not given. "I take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha." While a suitably-qualified teacher can give explanations and committments, both of which can be beneficial, refuge is freely available to all.
When I was ready to take refuge, there were no teachers available in the area, nor even, to my knowledge, any other Buddhists. So I visualized an assembly of Bodhisattvas, and took refuge with them as witnesses.
Om mani padme hum
Kathy
When I was ready to take refuge, there were no teachers available in the area, nor even, to my knowledge, any other Buddhists. So I visualized an assembly of Bodhisattvas, and took refuge with them as witnesses.
Om mani padme hum
Kathy
- PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Who can give Refuge?
That’s a very good point.KathyLauren wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:15 pm My understanding is that refuge is taken, not given. "I take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha." While a suitably-qualified teacher can give explanations and committments, both of which can be beneficial, refuge is freely available to all.
When I was ready to take refuge, there were no teachers available in the area, nor even, to my knowledge, any other Buddhists. So I visualized an assembly of Bodhisattvas, and took refuge with them as witnesses.
Om mani padme hum
Kathy
At the same time, for me, even though I considered myself a Buddhist for years before ever getting to meet a monk or lama who could perform a refuge ceremony, in my mind, I needed that “official” stamp. It’s all psychological, of course. And I think it boils down to, “yeah, I know I’m a Buddhist, but does Buddhism recognize me as a Buddhist?”
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: Who can give Refuge?
Anyone who has has Mahayana refuge vows, and understands the procedure for bestowing refuge vows, can bestow refuge vows. There is no special qualification needed other than that one’s own refuge is intact.KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:28 pm Simple question. Who is authorized to give refuge to people? Posting in nyingma, since that is where I practice. Is this the sort of thing that varies between schools/lineages? Or is it more static?
Thanks in advance
The question is, does one really wish to be granting such vows?
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Re: Who can give Refuge?
My Kagyu Lama said that in order to REALLY give Refuge you have to be able to follow someone's consciousness into the Bardo.
I don't think that happens very often though.
I don't think that happens very often though.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Who can give Refuge?
One can take Mahayana refuge and bodhicitta vows without a teacher. One just has to visualize the Buddha and bodhisattvas before one in space. This system is taught in the sutras.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:01 pm My Kagyu Lama said that in order to REALLY give Refuge you have to be able to follow someone's consciousness into the Bardo.
I don't think that happens very often though.
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Re: Who can give Refuge?
Good to know.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:08 pmOne can take Mahayana refuge and bodhicitta vows without a teacher. One just has to visualize the Buddha and bodhisattvas before one in space. This system is taught in the sutras.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:01 pm My Kagyu Lama said that in order to REALLY give Refuge you have to be able to follow someone's consciousness into the Bardo.
I don't think that happens very often though.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Who can give Refuge?
This is just an opinion. This is not stated anywhere in sutra.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:01 pm My Kagyu Lama said that in order to REALLY give Refuge you have to be able to follow someone's consciousness into the Bardo.
I don't think that happens very often though.
In the shravakayana, refuge vows must be received from a fully ordained bhikshu, but they only last until death.
Mahayana refuge vows are also lost at death, but since they are connected with bodhicitta, bodhisattva vows last until one attains buddhahood, unless one gives up,the motivation for buddhahood.
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Re: Who can give Refuge?
Correct.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:11 pmThis is just an opinion. This is not stated anywhere in sutra.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:01 pm My Kagyu Lama said that in order to REALLY give Refuge you have to be able to follow someone's consciousness into the Bardo.
I don't think that happens very often though.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Who can give Refuge?
Well, the problem with this idea is that guru can’t do anything for you in the bardo, other than recite some prayers and maybe recite the bardo thodrol for you, which you may or may not be aware of in the blooming buzzing confusion of the bardo. If the guru could not pick you up by the neck and liberate you in this life, what makes you think they can do so in bardo? If you’ve received Vajrayana teachings, and you experience the bardo, it’s your fault for not practicing hard enough.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:23 pmCorrect.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:11 pmThis is just an opinion. This is not stated anywhere in sutra.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:01 pm My Kagyu Lama said that in order to REALLY give Refuge you have to be able to follow someone's consciousness into the Bardo.
I don't think that happens very often though.
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Re: Who can give Refuge?
There's Guru Yoga in this life, and there's Guru Yoga in the Bardo. Except for the venue they really aren't very different. If your practice of Guru Yoga is strong during life there's no reason it will disappear in the Bardo.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:57 pmWell, the problem with this idea is that guru can’t do anything for you in the bardo, other than recite some prayers and maybe recite the bardo thodrol for you, which you may or may not be aware of in the blooming buzzing confusion of the bardo. If the guru could not pick you up by the neck and liberate you in this life, what makes you think they can do so in bardo? If you’ve received Vajrayana teachings, and you experience the bardo, it’s your fault for not practicing hard enough.
I suspect our ideas of what Guru Yoga entails may be different.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Who can give Refuge?
Probably not.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:06 pm
There's Guru Yoga in this life, and there's Guru Yoga in the Bardo. Except for the venue they really aren't very different. If your practice of Guru Yoga is strong during life there's no reason it will disappear in the Bardo.
I suspect our ideas of what Guru Yoga entails may be different.
Sure, one can practice guru yoga in the bardo, but that is not the "guru following you into the bardo." This is a result of your presence of mind which allows you to practice guru yoga in the bardo, and I agree, this is a result of practicing guru yoga in this life with strong diligence and devotion.
- KonchogUrgyenNyima
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Re: Who can give Refuge?
Hey thanks for the clear answer as always. Why would granting such vows give one pause? Are there responsibilities involved?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:50 pmAnyone who has has Mahayana refuge vows, and understands the procedure for bestowing refuge vows, can bestow refuge vows. There is no special qualification needed other than that one’s own refuge is intact.KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:28 pm Simple question. Who is authorized to give refuge to people? Posting in nyingma, since that is where I practice. Is this the sort of thing that varies between schools/lineages? Or is it more static?
Thanks in advance
The question is, does one really wish to be granting such vows?
Re: Refuge from the view of Dhammapada
OK. I intended it [mod note: the quote from Dhammapada - https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 61#p608961] as an answer that it is your own self who attains Refuge by realizing the Four noble truths, i.e. by following and realizing the Dharma. According to Buddha any member of the Sangha can teach you the Dharma. In the Sravakayana sutras even a laywoman can act as a teacher, as in the case of the lay-woman Visakha, who converted her father-in-law, wealthy merchant Migara, into Buddhism. Thereafter she was called "Migara's mother", being his "mother" in the spiritual sense, because she had caused Migara's spiritual birth in Buddhism.
Last edited by Ayu on Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Link added after moving the post to this thread.
Reason: Link added after moving the post to this thread.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Re: Refuge from the view of Dhammapada
But in Shravakayana, not everyone can perform the rite of ordaining a male or female upasaka, only a bhikshu can do this. In Mahayana, however this restriction does not apply.Aemilius wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:25 am OK. I intended it [mod note: the quote from Dhammapada - https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 61#p608961] as an answer that it is your own self who attains Refuge by realizing the Four noble truths, i.e. by following and realizing the Dharma. According to Buddha any member of the Sangha can teach you the Dharma. In the Sravakayana sutras even a laywoman can act as a teacher, as in the case of the lay-woman Visakha, who converted her father-in-law, wealthy merchant Migara, into Buddhism. Thereafter she was called "Migara's mother", being his "mother" in the spiritual sense, because she had caused Migara's spiritual birth in Buddhism.
Re: Who can give Refuge?
Why is this the question? What responsibility etc comes with giving someone refuge vows?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:50 pmAnyone who has has Mahayana refuge vows, and understands the procedure for bestowing refuge vows, can bestow refuge vows. There is no special qualification needed other than that one’s own refuge is intact.KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:28 pm Simple question. Who is authorized to give refuge to people? Posting in nyingma, since that is where I practice. Is this the sort of thing that varies between schools/lineages? Or is it more static?
Thanks in advance
The question is, does one really wish to be granting such vows?
- KonchogUrgyenNyima
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Re: Who can give Refuge?
I also would love to know what acharya means here. Can we also bestow the bodhisattva vow? are there any qualifications around this besides the bestower’s own vows being intact?Toenail wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:30 pmWhy is this the question? What responsibility etc comes with giving someone refuge vows?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:50 pmAnyone who has has Mahayana refuge vows, and understands the procedure for bestowing refuge vows, can bestow refuge vows. There is no special qualification needed other than that one’s own refuge is intact.KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:28 pm Simple question. Who is authorized to give refuge to people? Posting in nyingma, since that is where I practice. Is this the sort of thing that varies between schools/lineages? Or is it more static?
Thanks in advance
The question is, does one really wish to be granting such vows?
Re: Who can give Refuge?
One has to know how to properly conduct the rite. If one bestows refuge vows and bodhisattva vows there is no particular responsibility, but I think it can become kind of an ego trip. Even some Tibetan Lamas will incorrectly claim that having bestowed refuge, now the student has samaya with that teacher and so on. I just think it is better to encourage people to receive refuge and bodhisattva vows from qualified lamas, preferably lineage heads, and among those, bhikṣus like HH Dalai Lama are preferable to upasākas. One should recall that among vajramasters, a bhiḳsu with intact vows is supreme, according to Kalacakra. On the other hand, though this is ideal, life is short, and if one does not want to use the rite of administering refuge and bodhisattva vows to oneself, then any qualified teacher who is willing to give them will do.KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:59 pmI also would love to know what acharya means here. Can we also bestow the bodhisattva vow? are there any qualifications around this besides the bestower’s own vows being intact?Toenail wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:30 pmWhy is this the question? What responsibility etc comes with giving someone refuge vows?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:50 pm
Anyone who has has Mahayana refuge vows, and understands the procedure for bestowing refuge vows, can bestow refuge vows. There is no special qualification needed other than that one’s own refuge is intact.
The question is, does one really wish to be granting such vows?
Re: Who can give Refuge?
And I think the view from the other perspective is relevant as well: the impact on the taker.Toenail wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:30 pmWhy is this the question? What responsibility etc comes with giving someone refuge vows?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:50 pmAnyone who has has Mahayana refuge vows, and understands the procedure for bestowing refuge vows, can bestow refuge vows. There is no special qualification needed other than that one’s own refuge is intact.KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:28 pm Simple question. Who is authorized to give refuge to people? Posting in nyingma, since that is where I practice. Is this the sort of thing that varies between schools/lineages? Or is it more static?
Thanks in advance
The question is, does one really wish to be granting such vows?
Maybe the Rinpoche didn't take a certain responsibility, but the act of taking refuge can have a deep impact on the taker. I remember my teacher's face is somehow woven into the ritual of my taking refuge.
I know people who took refuge again as soon as they found a more authentic teacher. As I'm curious sometimes, I asked a woman after taking refuge for a second time: "And? Was it different this time?"
She said: "It was absolutely different and I'm so happy I asked for it."