Who can give Refuge?

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Aemilius
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Re: Refuge from the view of Dhammapada

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:44 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:25 am OK. I intended it [mod note: the quote from Dhammapada - https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 61#p608961] as an answer that it is your own self who attains Refuge by realizing the Four noble truths, i.e. by following and realizing the Dharma. According to Buddha any member of the Sangha can teach you the Dharma. In the Sravakayana sutras even a laywoman can act as a teacher, as in the case of the lay-woman Visakha, who converted her father-in-law, wealthy merchant Migara, into Buddhism. Thereafter she was called "Migara's mother", being his "mother" in the spiritual sense, because she had caused Migara's spiritual birth in Buddhism.
But in Shravakayana, not everyone can perform the rite of ordaining a male or female upasaka, only a bhikshu can do this. In Mahayana, however this restriction does not apply.
In the beginning period of Buddhism that wasn't always so formalized. In several cases the person first hears the Dharma and realizes its meaning, i.e. attains stream-entry. Only afterwards he takes refuge and becomes a lay-disciple or a monk/nun. For example, when Ashvajit recited one verse of Dharma to Shariputra, and the latter immediately understood its meaning.
There have been and there are still cases when a person hears the Dharma from a non-buddhist and realizes its meaning.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Ayu
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Re: Refuge from the view of Dhammapada

Post by Ayu »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:41 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:44 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:25 am OK. I intended it [mod note: the quote from Dhammapada - https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 61#p608961] as an answer that it is your own self who attains Refuge by realizing the Four noble truths, i.e. by following and realizing the Dharma. According to Buddha any member of the Sangha can teach you the Dharma. In the Sravakayana sutras even a laywoman can act as a teacher, as in the case of the lay-woman Visakha, who converted her father-in-law, wealthy merchant Migara, into Buddhism. Thereafter she was called "Migara's mother", being his "mother" in the spiritual sense, because she had caused Migara's spiritual birth in Buddhism.
But in Shravakayana, not everyone can perform the rite of ordaining a male or female upasaka, only a bhikshu can do this. In Mahayana, however this restriction does not apply.
In the beginning period of Buddhism that wasn't always so formalized. In several cases the person first hears the Dharma and realizes its meaning, i.e. attains stream-entry. Only afterwards he takes refuge and becomes a lay-disciple or a monk/nun. For example, when Ashvajit recited one verse of Dharma to Shariputra, and the latter immediately understood its meaning.
There have been and there are still cases when a person hears the Dharma from a non-buddhist and realizes its meaning.
Okay, but we're in the subforum 'Nyingma' here, not 'Early Buddhism'.
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Re: Refuge from the view of Dhammapada

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:41 am In the beginning period of Buddhism that wasn't always so formalized.
Yes, and then ordination rites were fixed by various sanghas later, with various procedures which differ from sect to sect.
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Aemilius
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Re: Refuge from the view of Dhammapada

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:53 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:41 am In the beginning period of Buddhism that wasn't always so formalized.
Yes, and then ordination rites were fixed by various sanghas later, with various procedures which differ from sect to sect.
For anyone who is interested, Vasubandhu enumerates 10 kinds of ordination in AKB vol II p. 592 :

1. Ordination by oneself, in case of Buddha and the Pratyekabuddhas.
2. Through entry into the path, in the case of the five, that is to say Ajñatakaudinya and his companions.
3. Through the summons: "Come, oh Bhikshu!", in the case of Ajñata.
4. By recognizing the Blessed One as master, as in the case of Mahakashyapa.
5. By satisfying the Blessed One with one's answers, as in the case of Sodayin.
6. By accepting the special obligation of monks and nuns, as in the case of Mahaprajapati.
7. By a messenger, as in the case of Dharmadinna.
8. By an official action as the fifth, that is, ordination before a Sangha of five Bhikshus, as in frontier lands.
9. By ten Bhikshus, as in Madhyadesha.
10. By repeating three times the formula of Refuge, as in the case of sixty Bhadravargas, ordained in a group.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

The better question is; what kind of ‘refuge’ is being offered? In English, ’refuge’ implies safety from danger. Obviously simply becoming a Buddhist does not guarantee that bad things will not happen to you.

So what are we even talking about?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Josef
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Josef »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:44 pm The better question is; what kind of ‘refuge’ is being offered? In English, ’refuge’ implies safety from danger. Obviously simply becoming a Buddhist does not guarantee that bad things will not happen to you.

So what are we even talking about?
According to Tsongkhapa the initial protection is from the three lower realms and eventually all six realms of samsara. This is the refuge we seek as dharma practitioners.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Malcolm
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:44 pm The better question is; what kind of ‘refuge’ is being offered? In English, ’refuge’ implies safety from danger. Obviously simply becoming a Buddhist does not guarantee that bad things will not happen to you.
If you maintain your refuge commitments, the likelihood of "bad things" happening to you decreases, even more so if you generate bodhicitta.
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Josef wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:06 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:44 pm The better question is; what kind of ‘refuge’ is being offered? In English, ’refuge’ implies safety from danger. Obviously simply becoming a Buddhist does not guarantee that bad things will not happen to you.

So what are we even talking about?
According to Tsongkhapa the initial protection is from the three lower realms and eventually all six realms of samsara. This is the refuge we seek as dharma practitioners.
This can either mean that:
1. having accepted proper guidance, we no longer act in such a wa so as to have the result of being born in the lower realms. Or,
2. it could mean active intervention on the part of the 3 Jewels to prohibit experiencing the 3 lower realms. Or,
3. both.
Malcolm wrote: If you maintain your refuge commitments, the likelihood of "bad things" happening to you decreases, even more so if you generate bodhicitta.
I’ll classify that as interpretation #1.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:06 pm
Josef wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:06 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:44 pm The better question is; what kind of ‘refuge’ is being offered? In English, ’refuge’ implies safety from danger. Obviously simply becoming a Buddhist does not guarantee that bad things will not happen to you.

So what are we even talking about?
According to Tsongkhapa the initial protection is from the three lower realms and eventually all six realms of samsara. This is the refuge we seek as dharma practitioners.
This can either mean that:
1. having accepted proper guidance, we no longer act in such a wa so as to have the result of being born in the lower realms. Or,
2. it could mean active intervention on the part of the 3 Jewels to prohibit experiencing the 3 lower realms. Or,
3. both.
It is option one. The merit of taking refuge is what prevents one from going to lower realms. However, if you don't sincerely observe the commitments of refuge to the best of your ability, then all bets are off.
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by KathyLauren »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:44 pm The better question is; what kind of ‘refuge’ is being offered? In English, ’refuge’ implies safety from danger. Obviously simply becoming a Buddhist does not guarantee that bad things will not happen to you.

So what are we even talking about?
The way it was explained to me was that Refuge means "refuge from suffering". Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha means acknowledging that only those three things, and nothing else, can free one from suffering. Looking elsewhere for refuge from suffering is futile and is breaking the spirit of one's Refuge Vow.

Om mani padme hum
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

KathyLauren wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:46 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:44 pm The better question is; what kind of ‘refuge’ is being offered? In English, ’refuge’ implies safety from danger. Obviously simply becoming a Buddhist does not guarantee that bad things will not happen to you.

So what are we even talking about?
The way it was explained to me was that Refuge means "refuge from suffering". Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha means acknowledging that only those three things, and nothing else, can free one from suffering. Looking elsewhere for refuge from suffering is futile and is breaking the spirit of one's Refuge Vow.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Years ago a lady I knew that was entirely devoted to Kagyu Dharma died in a house fire. My personal understanding of Refuge has had to include that information. So you can see why I ask such questions.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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heart
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by heart »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:07 pm
KathyLauren wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:46 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:44 pm The better question is; what kind of ‘refuge’ is being offered? In English, ’refuge’ implies safety from danger. Obviously simply becoming a Buddhist does not guarantee that bad things will not happen to you.

So what are we even talking about?
The way it was explained to me was that Refuge means "refuge from suffering". Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha means acknowledging that only those three things, and nothing else, can free one from suffering. Looking elsewhere for refuge from suffering is futile and is breaking the spirit of one's Refuge Vow.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Years ago a lady I knew that was entirely devoted to Kagyu Dharma died in a house fire. My personal understanding of Refuge has had to include that information. So you can see why I ask such questions.
Everybody get sick, old and dies, no refuge can save you from that only full enlightenment can.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:07 pm
KathyLauren wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:46 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:44 pm The better question is; what kind of ‘refuge’ is being offered? In English, ’refuge’ implies safety from danger. Obviously simply becoming a Buddhist does not guarantee that bad things will not happen to you.

So what are we even talking about?
The way it was explained to me was that Refuge means "refuge from suffering". Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha means acknowledging that only those three things, and nothing else, can free one from suffering. Looking elsewhere for refuge from suffering is futile and is breaking the spirit of one's Refuge Vow.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Years ago a lady I knew that was entirely devoted to Kagyu Dharma died in a house fire. My personal understanding of Refuge has had to include that information. So you can see why I ask such questions.
Everyone who goes for refuge will die, somehow. The question you have to ask, is "Did she go to lower realms after she died?"
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

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KathyLauren wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:46 pm Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha means acknowledging that only those three things, and nothing else, can free one from suffering.
I’ve heard Buddhist teachers from the major Buddhist traditions acknowledge that other, non-Buddhist paths may lead a sincere follower to awakening; i.e., that Buddhism isn’t the only way to awakening and freedom from suffering.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by clyde »

heart wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:29 pm Everybody get sick, old and dies, no refuge can save you from that only full enlightenment can.
Even the Buddha got old, got sick, and died. So enlightenment cannot save you from that.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

clyde wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:54 am
heart wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:29 pm Everybody get sick, old and dies, no refuge can save you from that only full enlightenment can.
Even the Buddha got old, got sick, and died. So enlightenment cannot save you from that.
… but from rebirth.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

clyde wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:49 am I’ve heard Buddhist teachers from the major Buddhist traditions acknowledge that other, non-Buddhist paths may lead a sincere follower to awakening; i.e., that Buddhism isn’t the only way to awakening and freedom from suffering.
Because there are many extraneous causes of sufferings, there are many paths that can offer one a remedyfrom suffering in this lifetime.
However, the Buddhist teachings identify the root cause of suffering as attachment to the experience of ‘a self’ (due to ignorance) and then offers the means to not only cut off the branches, but to sever the root. For that reason it is the only path that leads to the complete extinction of suffering.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

…the Buddhist teachings identify the root cause of suffering as attachment to the experience of ‘a self’ (due to ignorance)
The “attachment to the experience of a self” part of this needs more emphasis in Mahayana. Usually it simply left as “ignorance”. That prompts the misunderstanding that all we need to do is learn something.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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heart
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by heart »

clyde wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:54 am
heart wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:29 pm Everybody get sick, old and dies, no refuge can save you from that only full enlightenment can.
Even the Buddha got old, got sick, and died. So enlightenment cannot save you from that.
That was his last round in Samsara so of course enlightenment save you from Samsara.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Josef
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Re: Who can give Refuge?

Post by Josef »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:54 am
…the Buddhist teachings identify the root cause of suffering as attachment to the experience of ‘a self’ (due to ignorance)
The “attachment to the experience of a self” part of this needs more emphasis in Mahayana. Usually it simply left as “ignorance”. That prompts the misunderstanding that all we need to do is learn something.
Ignorance leads to the attachment to the experience of a self. This is heavily emphasized in Mahayana through the 12 nidanas etc.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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