trekcho/tögel earth terma?

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yagmort
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trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by yagmort »

1. i am getting the impression that most earth termas are mostly maha/anu deity yogas/sadhanas, not containing full path with tregcho and tögel. is that correct?

2. what are the most recent earth termas complete with instructions on tregcho and tögel?

chokling kunzang thugthig?
düdjom khandro nyingthig?
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Malcolm
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:51 pm
düdjom khandro nyingthig?
Not an earth terma.
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by heart »

yagmort wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:51 pm chokling kunzang thugthig?
It is an earth terma.

"On the southern slope is a cave whose opening is behind a waterfall. When the sun shines inside, it is filled with rainbow light. Outside flowers grow everywhere and the rock inside is the color of turquoise. The cave is called Yubar Drapuk, Glowing Turquoise Cave. From this cave Chokgyur Lingpa took the body representation called Ja-ö Kyilba, Glowing Swirls of Rainbow Lights, and the terma teaching of Kunsang Tuktig, a most profound Maha-Ati teaching possessing great blessings."

https://holybooks-lichtenbergpress.netd ... Lingpa.pdf

/magnus
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by yagmort »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:04 pm
yagmort wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:51 pm
düdjom khandro nyingthig?
Not an earth terma.
could you elaborate?
because rigpawiki entry lists KN as an earth terma, with quotes from terton's own autobiography: "...I have a sater (earth-treasure) cycle of revelation called Zabsang Khandro Nyingtik...
...I received the prophetic lists for the earth treasure Zabsang Khandro Nyingtik, ‘The Profound Doctrine of the Heart Essence of the Dakinis’ in this way..."
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by dechenpa »

Konchog Chidu is an earth terma which contains trekcho and togel. The instructions for this are rarely given however and it is only the development stage which is widely practiced.
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by PeterC »

heart wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:55 pm
yagmort wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:51 pm chokling kunzang thugthig?
It is an earth terma.

"On the southern slope is a cave whose opening is behind a waterfall. When the sun shines inside, it is filled with rainbow light. Outside flowers grow everywhere and the rock inside is the color of turquoise. The cave is called Yubar Drapuk, Glowing Turquoise Cave. From this cave Chokgyur Lingpa took the body representation called Ja-ö Kyilba, Glowing Swirls of Rainbow Lights, and the terma teaching of Kunsang Tuktig, a most profound Maha-Ati teaching possessing great blessings."

https://holybooks-lichtenbergpress.netd ... Lingpa.pdf

/magnus
The Lamrim Yeshe Nyingpo was an earth terma too, wasn't it?
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by heart »

PeterC wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:09 am
heart wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:55 pm
yagmort wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:51 pm chokling kunzang thugthig?
It is an earth terma.

"On the southern slope is a cave whose opening is behind a waterfall. When the sun shines inside, it is filled with rainbow light. Outside flowers grow everywhere and the rock inside is the color of turquoise. The cave is called Yubar Drapuk, Glowing Turquoise Cave. From this cave Chokgyur Lingpa took the body representation called Ja-ö Kyilba, Glowing Swirls of Rainbow Lights, and the terma teaching of Kunsang Tuktig, a most profound Maha-Ati teaching possessing great blessings."

https://holybooks-lichtenbergpress.netd ... Lingpa.pdf

/magnus
The Lamrim Yeshe Nyingpo was an earth terma too, wasn't it?
Yes.

"Proceeding to where the terma was located, Chokling Rinpoche put a note on a pine tree telling the guardian of the terma to give it to him. Then they went to a rock. Chokling opened the rock and extracted a vajra, leaving it half out and half in just for show. He removed a terma box and let everyone come and touch it with his head. That was the Lamrim Yeshe Nyingpo. The vajra is now in the reliquary of Dzongsar Khyentse in Sikkim."

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by Dharmasagara »

yagmort wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:35 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:04 pm
yagmort wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:51 pm
düdjom khandro nyingthig?
Not an earth terma.
could you elaborate?
because rigpawiki entry lists KN as an earth terma, with quotes from terton's own autobiography: "...I have a sater (earth-treasure) cycle of revelation called Zabsang Khandro Nyingtik...
...I received the prophetic lists for the earth treasure Zabsang Khandro Nyingtik, ‘The Profound Doctrine of the Heart Essence of the Dakinis’ in this way..."
Sorry Malcom, too quick you shot.

The Zabsang Khandro Nyingthig is the earth terma of Düdjom Lingpa, a huge collection of sadhanas of all types. Probably the most known text of this cycle is the Khandro Nyingthig Sater Ngöndro, the long ngöndro of Düdjom Tersar, to which Düdjom Rinpoche Jigdräl Yeshe Dorje authored his commentary translated as "A Torch Lightening the path to Freedom".

By contrast, the Khandro Thugthig by Düdjom Lingpa is indeed a gongter mind treasure.

As nyingthig and thugthig carry practically speaking the same meaning, mixing up the two cycles is a frequent occurrence.

But back to the question on threckchö/thögal: As far as I can see it is not treatmed within the Khandro Nyingthig earth terma cycle. But there is a lenghty one in Khandro Thugthig. Which would support the thesis of Threkchö Thögal only in mind terma.

D.
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by yagmort »

Dharmasagara wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:55 pm...As far as I can see it is not treatmed within the Khandro Nyingthig earth terma cycle. But there is a lenghty one in Khandro Thugthig. Which would support the thesis of Threkchö Thögal only in mind terma.
Dharmasagara, Khandro Nyingthig contains Tukdrub Sangwa Gyachen, which is the basis for Namchak Pudri, and Namchak Pudri, from what i inderstand, does contain tregchö/tögel part, unless i am mistaken and dzogchen in Namchak Pudri comes from Neluk Rangjung.

another example of an earth terma with tregchö/tögel is Künzang Thugthig.

there are also Konchog Chidu and Lamrim Yeshe Nyingpo, as dechenpa and PeterC suggested.

a much earlier example is Göngpa Zangthel, which also has parts on tregchö and tögel.

do, even though it looks like a rather rare occurence that an earth terma contains tregchö/tögel section, it is not unheard of. hence me asking about _most recent_ earth termas with tregchö/tögel.
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by Malcolm »

Dharmasagara wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:55 pm
The Zabsang Khandro Nyingthig is the earth terma of Düdjom Lingpa, a huge collection of sadhanas of all types.
I assumed he meant the Khandro Thuktik.
By contrast, the Khandro Thugthig by Düdjom Lingpa is indeed a gongter mind treasure.

As nyingthig and thugthig carry practically speaking the same meaning, mixing up the two cycles is a frequent occurrence.
Correct.
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:58 pm do, even though it looks like a rather rare occurence that an earth terma contains tregchö/tögel section, it is not unheard of. hence me asking about _most recent_ earth termas with tregchö/tögel.
The Vima Snying thig is an earth terma, though it is typically included with bka' ma, it is not actually bka' ma.
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by yagmort »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:14 pm The Vima Snying thig is an earth terma, though it is typically included with bka' ma, it is not actually bka' ma.
interesting.
who had concealed it and who has revealed it?
also, do we have accurate datings?
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by yeshegyaltsen »

Dharmasagara wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:55 pm
yagmort wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:35 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:04 pm

Not an earth terma.
could you elaborate?
because rigpawiki entry lists KN as an earth terma, with quotes from terton's own autobiography: "...I have a sater (earth-treasure) cycle of revelation called Zabsang Khandro Nyingtik...
...I received the prophetic lists for the earth treasure Zabsang Khandro Nyingtik, ‘The Profound Doctrine of the Heart Essence of the Dakinis’ in this way..."
Sorry Malcom, too quick you shot.

The Zabsang Khandro Nyingthig is the earth terma of Düdjom Lingpa, a huge collection of sadhanas of all types. Probably the most known text of this cycle is the Khandro Nyingthig Sater Ngöndro, the long ngöndro of Düdjom Tersar, to which Düdjom Rinpoche Jigdräl Yeshe Dorje authored his commentary translated as "A Torch Lightening the path to Freedom".

By contrast, the Khandro Thugthig by Düdjom Lingpa is indeed a gongter mind treasure.

As nyingthig and thugthig carry practically speaking the same meaning, mixing up the two cycles is a frequent occurrence.

But back to the question on threckchö/thögal: As far as I can see it is not treatmed within the Khandro Nyingthig earth terma cycle. But there is a lenghty one in Khandro Thugthig. Which would support the thesis of Threkchö Thögal only in mind terma.

D.
The Khandro thugthig was revealed by Dudjom Rinpoche, not Dudjom Lingpa
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:36 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:14 pm The Vima Snying thig is an earth terma, though it is typically included with bka' ma, it is not actually bka' ma.
interesting.
who had concealed it and who has revealed it?
also, do we have accurate datings?
It was concealed by Chetsun Senge Wangchuk. It was taken out of a cave in O'yuk, Tsang with the assistance of the guardian, Dorje Lekpa, around c. 1117-1118 by Zhangton Tashi Dorje (1197-1167).
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by Malcolm »

yeshegyaltsen wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:34 pm
The Khandro thugthig was revealed by Dudjom Rinpoche, not Dudjom Lingpa
Correct.
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by yagmort »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:54 pm...
It was concealed by Chetsun Senge Wangchuk. It was taken out of a cave in O'yuk, Tsang with the assistance of the guardian, Dorje Lekpa, around c. 1117-1118 by Zhangton Tashi Dorje (1197-1167)...
thanks.

Malcolm, do one get Vima Nyingthig empowerment as a part of Nyinthig Yabzhi empowerment only?

also, if a master gives Nyingthig Yabzhi empowerment (or any other major cycle empowernent for that matter), does it mean he/she is accomplished in this cycle?
i don't think i understand this point.
some masters are the lineage holders for so many cycles, like düdjom tersar, pema lingpa termas, northern treasures, longchen nyingthig etc., does that mean they have mastered them all, ie they not only give you a wang for a specific cycle, but are also accomplished in all of them and qualified to teach them, check your progress, understand your difficulties, correct mistakes, clear misunderstandings and give advice? not just give you a wang?
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:54 pm...
It was concealed by Chetsun Senge Wangchuk. It was taken out of a cave in O'yuk, Tsang with the assistance of the guardian, Dorje Lekpa, around c. 1117-1118 by Zhangton Tashi Dorje (1197-1167)...
thanks.

Malcolm, do one get Vima Nyingthig empowerment as a part of Nyinthig Yabzhi empowerment only?

also, if a master gives Nyingthig Yabzhi empowerment (or any other major cycle empowernent for that matter), does it mean he/she is accomplished in this cycle?
i don't think i understand this point.
some masters are the lineage holders for so many cycles, like düdjom tersar, pema lingpa termas, northern treasures, longchen nyingthig etc., does that mean they have mastered them all, ie they not only give you a wang for a specific cycle, but are also accomplished in all of them and qualified to teach them, check your progress, understand your difficulties, correct mistakes, clear misunderstandings and give advice? not just give you a wang?
Dzogchen is Dzogchen, as they say gcig shes kun grol, knowing one liberates all. In this case, many lamas who have not mastered thogal beyond the second vision (and most lamas have not) nevertheless give Dzogchen empowerments and teachings. And, if you understand and have experience in Dzogchen, one does not need to "master" all these cycles to teach them (providing you have received them), since the basic points of Dzogchen man ngag sde are identical in every system. The main difference will be whatever yidams are associated with this or that cycle as supports. For example, ChNN freely picked and chose from what he considered the best from older termas, and presented them in that way, not bothering to or even thinking it necessary to give the entire cycle from which this or that Dzogchen instruction was drawn. At base, Nyinthig Dzogchen practice is summed up in four points: mind-training, rushan, trekcho, and thogal. The rest of it is ancillary. For example, to practice Yeshe Lama, all you really need is the empowerment of Thigle Gyacan, and the lung and rig pa'i rtsal wang of Ye shes lama. You don't need the entire Longchen Nyinthig. Just the Dzogchen portion.
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by yagmort »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:30 pm ... In this case, many lamas who have not mastered thogal beyond the second vision (and most lamas have not) nevertheless give Dzogchen empowerments and teachings...
so what's your take on this? Togden Shakya Shri, whom i hold in a rather high regard, has said that one can only teach dzogchen when one has accomplished third vision of tögel. that sounds about right, but then comes my confusion as to how can i assess that? presumably Togden Shakya Shri didn't mean it as a task of a disciple but thought it as a reference for a sincere teacher to follow, but nowadays.. as you said and i agree, "most lamas have not"..
Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:30 pm ... For example, to practice Yeshe Lama, all you really need is the empowerment of Thigle Gyacan, and the lung and rig pa'i rtsal wang of Ye shes lama. You don't need the entire Longchen Nyinthig. Just the Dzogchen portion.
that clarifies, thank you. what about Vima Nyingthig? do one need whole Nyingthig Yabzhi wang?
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:51 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:30 pm ... In this case, many lamas who have not mastered thogal beyond the second vision (and most lamas have not) nevertheless give Dzogchen empowerments and teachings...
so what's your take on this? Togden Shakya Shri, whom i hold in a rather high regard, has said that one can only teach dzogchen when one has accomplished third vision of tögel. that sounds about right, but then comes my confusion as to how can i assess that? presumably Togden Shakya Shri didn't mean it as a task of a disciple but thought it as a reference for a sincere teacher to follow, but nowadays.. as you said and i agree, "most lamas have not"..
While this is a desideratum since such a teacher will definitely be an ārya, don't hold your breath or spend much time worrying about whether or not so and so has reached this level of practice. Liberation is not like glitter, it does not rub off on the student. One still has one's own work to do. As long as the teacher has authentic experience of the first vision, they can correctly guide you.


Malcolm wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:30 pm that clarifies, thank you. what about Vima Nyingthig? do one need whole Nyingthig Yabzhi wang?
No, just the Vima Nyinthig wang.
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Re: trekcho/tögel earth terma?

Post by Dharmasagara »

yeshegyaltsen wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:34 pm
Dharmasagara wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:55 pm
yagmort wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:35 am
The Khandro thugthig was revealed by Dudjom Rinpoche, not Dudjom Lingpa
:anjali: Thanks, so I ended myself mixing up the names...
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