Importance and Benefit of Ngondro

[Aryjna]

I get your sore spot. I'm not slandering. Some teachers respected ChNN some laughed at him.

You've said this many times before but never had the decency to provide details. Since it is entirely irrelevant to any discussion to say "someone said that" (which is quite common in this forum for some reason), I'm not sure what the point of such a statement could be other than veiled slander.

[Malcolm]

Some teachers respected ChNN some laughed at him.

This is calumny, one of the four verbal nonvirtues. It’s also entirely unnecessary.

[treehuggingoctopus]

Some teachers respected ChNN some laughed at him.

This is calumny

Isn't it just stating the fact? The laughter bit is grating and unnecessary but ChNN was a divisive figure, and did get quite a bit of flak from the establishment -- as did everybody else, probably, and certainly the majority of tertons including Dudjom Lingpa, whom Crazywisdom mentioned.

I am not saying Crazywisdom is not trying to undermine Rinpoche's authority -- he clearly is (hence his saying that he is not that big on ChNN, and then referring to the controversy, if it is not too big a word). I also clearly recall him being a massive fan or Rinpoche's, and the sudden change is saddening, to say the least. But is it a calumny?

(I still do not know what point Crazywisdom is trying to make, nor how come he is trying to make it, though. These are literally insane times, with practitioners running amok daily.)

[Malcolm]

But is it a calumny?

Making repeated hearsay statements intended to cause people to question another person’s integrity are certainly calumnies. However, not my karma. This board is completely irrelevant to the Buddhist world. It has no influence nor sway.

[Tata1]

So now you accept tulkus? Everyone does not accept this about it ChNN. But it's ok if you do. You lot are a big group in this forum, but very small and sort of odd in TB. A minority view is scewing things here. So did he authorize you to teach these things?

I’m not really a student of ChNNR or the DC. Or Malcolm.

But you might want to abstain from slandering teachers and disciples.

I have had my own teachers slandered on forums like this. I have had my teachers on some “fake guru” dox site that some dude ran for years.

Nobody batted an eye.

They were vindicated, but it was a horrible experience.

It’s really not constructive in spaces like this.

I get your sore spot. I'm not slandering. Some teachers respected ChNN some laughed at him.

My point was no one laughs at an established lineage head, like the Karmapa, or Taklung Tsetrul or Dudjom. The first Dudjom was also a pure vision guy, also had 13 guys go rainbow body. Says a lot.

It's the teachings of these sorts of lineages that should be revered and respected and not slandered or desecrated with novel interpretations by innovatived Americans.

I guess you never heard of the karmapas controversy, the new kadampas stuff and even now with the two dudjoms there is slandering.

Its sad that also you engage in this, but somehow not surprising.

I dont see how ones nationality has anything to do with the validity of ones opinion.

[Nemo]

I think there is a lot of doubts now. The old generation of Tibetans were unique. When they attained realization it was a personal transcendent experience that they then tried to teach others how to achieve. Now it seems different to me. It feels like an ego acting how they imagine an enlightened being would act. But that is just my experience. When I started Ngondro was entirely voluntary. Many schools did not demand it. Now obedience to authority seems more important than back in the day.

[Natan]

I’m not really a student of ChNNR or the DC. Or Malcolm.

But you might want to abstain from slandering teachers and disciples.

I have had my own teachers slandered on forums like this. I have had my teachers on some “fake guru” dox site that some dude ran for years.

Nobody batted an eye.

They were vindicated, but it was a horrible experience.

It’s really not constructive in spaces like this.

I get your sore spot. I'm not slandering. Some teachers respected ChNN some laughed at him.

My point was no one laughs at an established lineage head, like the Karmapa, or Taklung Tsetrul or Dudjom. The first Dudjom was also a pure vision guy, also had 13 guys go rainbow body. Says a lot.

It's the teachings of these sorts of lineages that should be revered and respected and not slandered or desecrated with novel interpretations by innovatived Americans.

I guess you never heard of the karmapas controversy, the new kadampas stuff and even now with the two dudjoms there is slandering.

Its sad that also you engage in this, but somehow not surprising.

I dont see how ones nationality has anything to do with the validity of ones opinion.

Slander is when you lie to harm a reputation. The reputation is there. I didn't invent it. I'm sure you're correct about controversy.

So the claim, everyone knows ChNN is the best Dzogchen master in 200 years, is a ridiculous statement. Maybe to some but certainly not everyone.

Also brings up a great point. A master like Khenpo Jigphun or Khenchen Namdrol... Strict vow... Uphold old lineages, also revealed treasures, practiced under most hardship, built a community under great duress, no controversy

[Natan]

Some teachers respected ChNN some laughed at him.

This is calumny, one of the four verbal nonvirtues. It’s also entirely unnecessary.

There's nothing nonvirtuous about truth. I know who I spoke with and what I witnessed.

Your claim, everyone knows... Is just not true. You believe, some believe... Ok. That's true.

[Natan]

Back to the OP. Why we should do ngondro. Vajrayana is not a choose your own adventure story. You do it if your lama tells you. You trust that lama if s/he has an unbroken lineage, because you get the guild guarantee your experience will be just like theirs.

[Malcolm]

Some teachers respected ChNN some laughed at him.

This is calumny, one of the four verbal nonvirtues. It’s also entirely unnecessary.

There's nothing nonvirtuous about truth. I know who I spoke with and what I witnessed.

Your claim, everyone knows... Is just not true. You believe, some believe... Ok. That's true.

Your comment is hearsay, and since it really has nothing to do with anything in this thread, other then your obvious dislike of me, well…

[Pero]

I also clearly recall him being a massive fan or Rinpoche's, and the sudden change is saddening, to say the least.

IIRC CW has these sorts of turnarounds every couple years.

I still do not know what point Crazywisdom is trying to make, nor how come he is trying to make it, though.

Me either.

On anyone being greatest - I always take statements with a grain of salt, even when it's about my own teacher haha. Seems really hard to determine, objectivity is hard to have. Also don't think it's relevant to anyone.

[Kris]

[Charlie123]

[pemachophel]

Moderator: Please lock this thread before Chokhor Duchen begins. IMO, it is currently serving no good purpose and is creating bad karma.

[treehuggingoctopus]

Moderator: Please lock this thread before Chokhor Duchen begins. IMO, it is currently serving no good purpose and is creating bad karma.

(And a bit of late spring cleaning would not harm, either.)

[Natan]

This is calumny, one of the four verbal nonvirtues. It’s also entirely unnecessary.

There's nothing nonvirtuous about truth. I know who I spoke with and what I witnessed.

Your claim, everyone knows... Is just not true. You believe, some believe... Ok. That's true.

Your comment is hearsay, and since it really has nothing to do with anything in this thread, other then your obvious dislike of me, well…

I like you a lot. You're very dedicated. I take issue with some stuff you say re dharma.

[haha]

Every teacher has their own style of teachings.

Rinpoche used to say there was no such as fourth statement (in the context of dzogchen).

[Tata1]

I get your sore spot. I'm not slandering. Some teachers respected ChNN some laughed at him.

My point was no one laughs at an established lineage head, like the Karmapa, or Taklung Tsetrul or Dudjom. The first Dudjom was also a pure vision guy, also had 13 guys go rainbow body. Says a lot.

It's the teachings of these sorts of lineages that should be revered and respected and not slandered or desecrated with novel interpretations by innovatived Americans.

I guess you never heard of the karmapas controversy, the new kadampas stuff and even now with the two dudjoms there is slandering.

Its sad that also you engage in this, but somehow not surprising.

I dont see how ones nationality has anything to do with the validity of ones opinion.

Slander is when you lie to harm a reputation. The reputation is there. I didn't invent it. I'm sure you're correct about controversy.

So the claim, everyone knows ChNN is the best Dzogchen master in 200 years, is a ridiculous statement. Maybe to some but certainly not everyone.

Also brings up a great point. A master like Khenpo Jigphun or Khenchen Namdrol... Strict vow... Uphold old lineages, also revealed treasures, practiced under most hardship, built a community under great duress, no controversy

Kempo namdrol has all been subject to criticism because of hes posture in the sogyal incident. Which is kind of opposite to some other great lamas position.
There has never been one single lama who wasnt criticized. The 15 karmapa was criticized by other lamas because of taking several consorts, chogyur lingpa was doubt even by the other 2 great tertons in the begining.

Whats your point?

[Natan]

I guess you never heard of the karmapas controversy, the new kadampas stuff and even now with the two dudjoms there is slandering.

Its sad that also you engage in this, but somehow not surprising.

I dont see how ones nationality has anything to do with the validity of ones opinion.

Slander is when you lie to harm a reputation. The reputation is there. I didn't invent it. I'm sure you're correct about controversy.

So the claim, everyone knows ChNN is the best Dzogchen master in 200 years, is a ridiculous statement. Maybe to some but certainly not everyone.

Also brings up a great point. A master like Khenpo Jigphun or Khenchen Namdrol... Strict vow... Uphold old lineages, also revealed treasures, practiced under most hardship, built a community under great duress, no controversy

Kempo namdrol has all been subject to criticism because of hes posture in the sogyal incident. Which is kind of opposite to some other great lamas position.
There has never been one single lama who wasnt criticized. The 15 karmapa was criticized by other lamas because of taking several consorts, chogyur lingpa was doubt even by the other 2 great tertons in the begining.

Whats your point?

He took a traditional approach. He's very traditional. The point is tradition, hardship, adhering to vows, dedication and great work. Obviously humans hardly avoid criticism. So many Siddhas were criticized and ostracized from the old universities. Some are more inspirational than others and keep pure lineages.

[Charlie123]

I guess you never heard of the karmapas controversy, the new kadampas stuff and even now with the two dudjoms there is slandering.

Its sad that also you engage in this, but somehow not surprising.

I dont see how ones nationality has anything to do with the validity of ones opinion.

Slander is when you lie to harm a reputation. The reputation is there. I didn't invent it. I'm sure you're correct about controversy.

So the claim, everyone knows ChNN is the best Dzogchen master in 200 years, is a ridiculous statement. Maybe to some but certainly not everyone.

Also brings up a great point. A master like Khenpo Jigphun or Khenchen Namdrol... Strict vow... Uphold old lineages, also revealed treasures, practiced under most hardship, built a community under great duress, no controversy

Kempo namdrol has all been subject to criticism because of hes posture in the sogyal incident. Which is kind of opposite to some other great lamas position.
There has never been one single lama who wasnt criticized. The 15 karmapa was criticized by other lamas because of taking several consorts, chogyur lingpa was doubt even by the other 2 great tertons in the begining.

Whats your point?

Indeed. And as Malcolm once pointed out, there are Vajrayanis who doubt the validity of the entire terma tradition, sutrayana practitioners who doubt the validity of all of the tantras, and Theravadans who doubt the Mahayana as a whole.

Once someone starts playing the consensus game, they are automatically standing in a glass house throwing stones.