Importance and Benefit of Ngondro

[Malcolm]

Welcome to the club.

From what I’m reading here— neither do I.

Just being honest.
The heart is open.. the dakinis don’t lie.
If they walk you back is for a reason.
Sorry .. being a bit cryptic.
Handed off ... and was like nah... not ready
Lol

What are you talking about?

Does it matter ?

[Cinnabar]

Just being honest.
The heart is open.. the dakinis don’t lie.
If they walk you back is for a reason.
Sorry .. being a bit cryptic.
Handed off ... and was like nah... not ready
Lol

What are you talking about?

Does it matter ?

Well I am wanting to learn, so, yes?

[PeterC]

So anyways, back to Ngondro

Since when did 100,000 turn into 1,200,000 guru mantra accumulations? As if it wasn’t hard enough, somehow I wasn’t listening when they explained the instructions. Does everybody do this?

It was always 100k per syllable…

Thanks, I never knew that. If there was a facepalm emoji I’d certainly use it right now.

It's just hazing, really. If a teacher tells you 100k per syllable and you come back later with a big grin saying you've finished, I'm sure they'll come up with a reason why you should do more. That's happened to me a few times ("did I say per syllable? Well, you have to multiply that by four, because we're in the kali yuga").

If you were accumulating mantras to develop siddhis then you would do it on signs anyway, by definition, not numbers or time. If you're just accumulating to hit a certain number so that you can 'qualify' to go on to another practice, it's always going to be a bit arbitrary.

[Natan]

It was always 100k per syllable…

Thanks, I never knew that. If there was a facepalm emoji I’d certainly use it right now.

It's just hazing, really. If a teacher tells you 100k per syllable and you come back later with a big grin saying you've finished, I'm sure they'll come up with a reason why you should do more. That's happened to me a few times ("did I say per syllable? Well, you have to multiply that by four, because we're in the kali yuga").

If you were accumulating mantras to develop siddhis then you would do it on signs anyway, by definition, not numbers or time. If you're just accumulating to hit a certain number so that you can 'qualify' to go on to another practice, it's always going to be a bit arbitrary.

If the message is not to trust our lama bc they are just toying with us, and don't have our best interests at heart, then you need a different lama. The notion to take what lamas say with a grain of salt and trust the books, well, that's not Vajrayana. The Lama is the embodiment of the tantra. The mandala emits of their hearts. There is no information lama in a book, and no otherworldly lama to rely upon. Vajrayana is not knowledge to be figured out from letters. There will be no signs except bad ones if one does not understand this.

[Malcolm]

What are you talking about?

Does it matter ?

Well I am wanting to learn, so, yes?

I don't think you are going to learn anything from Danny's statement.

[PeterC]

Thanks, I never knew that. If there was a facepalm emoji I’d certainly use it right now.

It's just hazing, really. If a teacher tells you 100k per syllable and you come back later with a big grin saying you've finished, I'm sure they'll come up with a reason why you should do more. That's happened to me a few times ("did I say per syllable? Well, you have to multiply that by four, because we're in the kali yuga").

If you were accumulating mantras to develop siddhis then you would do it on signs anyway, by definition, not numbers or time. If you're just accumulating to hit a certain number so that you can 'qualify' to go on to another practice, it's always going to be a bit arbitrary.

If the message is not to trust our lama bc they are just toying with us, and don't have our best interests at heart, then you need a different lama. The notion to take what lamas say with a grain of salt and trust the books, well, that's not Vajrayana. The Lama is the embodiment of the tantra. The mandala emits of their hearts. There is no information lama in a book, and no otherworldly lama to rely upon. Vajrayana is not knowledge to be figured out from letters. There will be no signs except bad ones if one does not understand this.

Yes, of course, everyone knows this. Where did I say not to trust the lama? Hazing has a purpose. There's a reason every military in the world uses it as a training technique.

[Malcolm]

The notion to take what lamas say with a grain of salt and trust the books, well, that's not Vajrayana.

So you are essentially saying, contra the Buddha:

"Follow the person, not the Dharma."

Do I have that right? Do you have a citation from a tantra handy, which says one should follow whatever a guru tells one to do, even if it is contravenes Dharma principles? Or have I misunderstood you?

[Konchog Thogme Jampa]

Thanks, I never knew that. If there was a facepalm emoji I’d certainly use it right now.

It's just hazing, really. If a teacher tells you 100k per syllable and you come back later with a big grin saying you've finished, I'm sure they'll come up with a reason why you should do more. That's happened to me a few times ("did I say per syllable? Well, you have to multiply that by four, because we're in the kali yuga").

If you were accumulating mantras to develop siddhis then you would do it on signs anyway, by definition, not numbers or time. If you're just accumulating to hit a certain number so that you can 'qualify' to go on to another practice, it's always going to be a bit arbitrary.

If the message is not to trust our lama bc they are just toying with us, and don't have our best interests at heart, then you need a different lama. The notion to take what lamas say with a grain of salt and trust the books, well, that's not Vajrayana. The Lama is the embodiment of the tantra. The mandala emits of their hearts. There is no information lama in a book, and no otherworldly lama to rely upon. Vajrayana is not knowledge to be figured out from letters. There will be no signs except bad ones if one does not understand this.

There’s Outer, Inner and Secret Guru

[Natan]

It's just hazing, really. If a teacher tells you 100k per syllable and you come back later with a big grin saying you've finished, I'm sure they'll come up with a reason why you should do more. That's happened to me a few times ("did I say per syllable? Well, you have to multiply that by four, because we're in the kali yuga").

If you were accumulating mantras to develop siddhis then you would do it on signs anyway, by definition, not numbers or time. If you're just accumulating to hit a certain number so that you can 'qualify' to go on to another practice, it's always going to be a bit arbitrary.

If the message is not to trust our lama bc they are just toying with us, and don't have our best interests at heart, then you need a different lama. The notion to take what lamas say with a grain of salt and trust the books, well, that's not Vajrayana. The Lama is the embodiment of the tantra. The mandala emits of their hearts. There is no information lama in a book, and no otherworldly lama to rely upon. Vajrayana is not knowledge to be figured out from letters. There will be no signs except bad ones if one does not understand this.

Yes, of course, everyone knows this. Where did I say not to trust the lama? Hazing has a purpose. There's a reason every military in the world uses it as a training technique.

It's not hazing. It's meant to open the mind not eliminate your individuality so you will obey orders without question.

[Natan]

The notion to take what lamas say with a grain of salt and trust the books, well, that's not Vajrayana.

So you are essentially saying, contra the Buddha:

"Follow the person, not the Dharma."

Do I have that right? Do you have a citation from a tantra handy, which says one should follow whatever a guru tells one to do, even if it is contravenes Dharma principles? Or have I misunderstood you?

Of course you misunderstood me. You should not follow a lama who contravenes dharma. Tantras say what qualifies a guru, educated in dharma, particularly the tantra and it's rituals, and it's result.

But you recall the story of Tilopa and Naropa and the 12 trials? He told Naropa to jump off a cliff; to go attack a wedding parade, etc. Naropa did it and broke his body. Did that contravene dharma principles to your book research? That's the root of Kagyu.

You think you got something better than that?

The problem is finding good gurus. But that's the task.

But more to the point are you suggesting ngondro contravenes dharma principles? Or is this another interesting insight made up by you?

[Natan]

It's just hazing, really. If a teacher tells you 100k per syllable and you come back later with a big grin saying you've finished, I'm sure they'll come up with a reason why you should do more. That's happened to me a few times ("did I say per syllable? Well, you have to multiply that by four, because we're in the kali yuga").

If you were accumulating mantras to develop siddhis then you would do it on signs anyway, by definition, not numbers or time. If you're just accumulating to hit a certain number so that you can 'qualify' to go on to another practice, it's always going to be a bit arbitrary.

If the message is not to trust our lama bc they are just toying with us, and don't have our best interests at heart, then you need a different lama. The notion to take what lamas say with a grain of salt and trust the books, well, that's not Vajrayana. The Lama is the embodiment of the tantra. The mandala emits of their hearts. There is no information lama in a book, and no otherworldly lama to rely upon. Vajrayana is not knowledge to be figured out from letters. There will be no signs except bad ones if one does not understand this.

There’s Outer, Inner and Secret Guru

And ultimate guru, so what's your point?

[PeterC]

If the message is not to trust our lama bc they are just toying with us, and don't have our best interests at heart, then you need a different lama. The notion to take what lamas say with a grain of salt and trust the books, well, that's not Vajrayana. The Lama is the embodiment of the tantra. The mandala emits of their hearts. There is no information lama in a book, and no otherworldly lama to rely upon. Vajrayana is not knowledge to be figured out from letters. There will be no signs except bad ones if one does not understand this.

Yes, of course, everyone knows this. Where did I say not to trust the lama? Hazing has a purpose. There's a reason every military in the world uses it as a training technique.

It's not hazing. It's meant to open the mind not eliminate your individuality so you will obey orders without question.

What do you mean by ‘open the mind’?

The ‘traditional’ ngondro was intended to keep teenage Tibetan boys occupied. The numbers of accumulations are, essentially, arbitrary - high enough to be hard not so high as to be impossible. There is nothing magical about 100k per syllable - anyone doing any practice seriously will accumulate way more than that anyway

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

What do you mean by ‘open the mind’?

To allow for something new, unknown, and different than what was already known to be credible.

[PeterC]

What do you mean by ‘open the mind’?

To allow for something new, unknown, and different than what was already known to be credible.

Thanks, but I was asking CW what he meant by that term

[Malcolm]

But you recall the story of Tilopa and Naropa and the 12 trials? He told Naropa to jump off a cliff; to go attack a wedding parade, etc. Naropa did it and broke his body.

It’s pretty clear from the way the narrative paints the story, Naropa did not understand his teacher properly, and kept getting himself in trouble. On the other hand, Naropa hampered his own realization by ignoring Tilopa’s command not to debate nonBuddhists.

But more to the point are you suggesting ngondro contravenes dharma principles?

Of course not.

[Natan]

But you recall the story of Tilopa and Naropa and the 12 trials? He told Naropa to jump off a cliff; to go attack a wedding parade, etc. Naropa did it and broke his body.

It’s pretty clear from the way the narrative paints the story, Naropa did not understand his teacher properly, and kept getting himself in trouble. On the other hand, Naropa hampered his own realization by ignoring Tilopa’s command not to debate nonBuddhists.

You realize Kagu have a detailed teaching on this complete with and outline?

Another instance you make novel point, not at all how Kagu tell it. Obviously, you are right and all the Kagyu are deluded.

[Malcolm]

Another instance you make novel point, not at all how Kagu tell it.

I assume you are referring to this, "Naropa hampered his own realization by ignoring Tilopa’s command not to debate nonBuddhists."

My point is not a novelty, nor is the fact that Nyan Lotsawa's eye witness account describes Naropa as being very fat, with henna-dyed hair, carried about on a palanquin by four strong men, and mobbed by large crowds wherever he went.

There are different accounts in different lineages. The account I am drawing from is part of the Naropa Khechari lineage. This transmission does not exist in Kagyu, only Sakya [and more recently, Geluk].

Obviously, you are right and all the Kagyu are deluded.

I am not certain why you think I have it in for Kagyupas, but it is incorrect to think that I do.

[Natan]

Yes, of course, everyone knows this. Where did I say not to trust the lama? Hazing has a purpose. There's a reason every military in the world uses it as a training technique.

It's not hazing. It's meant to open the mind not eliminate your individuality so you will obey orders without question.

What do you mean by ‘open the mind’?

The ‘traditional’ ngondro was intended to keep teenage Tibetan boys occupied. The numbers of accumulations are, essentially, arbitrary - high enough to be hard not so high as to be impossible. There is nothing magical about 100k per syllable - anyone doing any practice seriously will accumulate way more than that anyway

It's was said to me, ngondro is to tan a rigid mind, tan it and make it supple, like soft lambskin leather.

[Malcolm]

It's was said to me, ngondro is to tan a rigid mind, tan it and make it supple, like soft lambskin leather.

Yes, and so that is an instruction for you, not for everyone.

[heart]

There is an interesting description of Nagtso-lotsawa's who studied in India and actually went to meet Naropa in Ronald Davidsons book Tibetan Renaissance...

"... I thought I would go see the Lord Naropa, since his reputation was so great. I went east from Mahadha for a month, as I had heard that the lord was staying in the monastery known as Phullahari. Very great merit arose from being able to go see him.
On the day I arrived, they said some feudal prince had come to pay homage. So I went to the spot, and a great throne had been erected. I sat right in front of it. The whole crowd started buzzing, "The lord is coming!" I looked and the lord was physically quite corpulent (stout or fat), with his white hair [stained with henna] bright red and a vermillion turban bound on top. He was being carried [on a palangquin] by four men and chewing betel leaf. I grabbed his feet and thought "I should listen to his pronouncements!" Stronger and stronger people, though, pushed me farther and farther from his seat, and finally I was tossed out of the crowd. So, there I saw the lord's face but I did not actully hear his voice"

interesting, no?