CoEmergent Wisdom

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PadmaVonSamba
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CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

In the glossary of the book Dakini Teachings (Rangjung Yeshe Publications) coemergent wisdom is defined as:
“The innate wakefulness potentially present in all beings. Wisdom here means the primordially undeluded wakefulness.”

If the wisdom is innate, how is it coemergent?

…or, is it that wisdom itself is innate, and that the term refers to it merging with some other thing, and if so, what would that other thing be, the combination of which would then be referred to as ‘coemergent wisdom’?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Natan
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by Natan »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:56 pm In the glossary of the book Dakini Teachings (Rangjung Yeshe Publications) coemergent wisdom is defined as:
“The innate wakefulness potentially present in all beings. Wisdom here means the primordially undeluded wakefulness.”

If the wisdom is innate, how is it coemergent?

…or, is it that wisdom itself is innate, and that the term refers to it merging with some other thing, and if so, what would that other thing be, the combination of which would then be referred to as ‘coemergent wisdom’?
The term Coemergent is referring to two things, the awareness and phenomena. The two are inextricable. So to see the nature of wisdom phenomena must be present and vice versa.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Coemergent actually means innate. (tib. lhan skyes)

In the dictionary: ལྷན་སྐྱེས། དངོས་པོ་གང་ཞིག་རང་དང་ལྷན་ཅིག་ཏུ་ཐོག་མ་ནས་བྱུང་བའམ་ངང་ངམ་ཤུགས་ལ་གནས་པ། Arising together with something from its origin/the time of its beginning, or existing/resting naturally. (The second half is hard to translate, but it means innate.)

Co-emergent:
https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... 6%E0%BC%8B

Co-emergent Ignorance:
https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... 4%E0%BC%8B
Malcolm
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:18 pm Coemergent actually means innate. (tib. lhan skyes)
It depends, lhan cig skyes in Dzogchen in fact means "connate." If ignorance were innate, one could never be rid of it.

Co-emergent is a dumb word and is not proper English. It was coined by a German, of course.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:20 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:18 pm Coemergent actually means innate. (tib. lhan skyes)
It depends, lhan cig skyes in Dzogchen in fact means "connate." If ignorance were innate, one could never be rid of it.

Co-emergent is a dumb word and is not proper English. It was coined by a German, of course.
Lol, agreed.

I was always curious about this word. In terms of ignorance, what is it that ignorance arises with? And for yeshe, what is it that yeshe arises with?

Since they are seen to be innate, that might seem to mean these things are beginningless... and yet, they are said to "co-emerge" with something.
Malcolm
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:53 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:20 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:18 pm Coemergent actually means innate. (tib. lhan skyes)
It depends, lhan cig skyes in Dzogchen in fact means "connate." If ignorance were innate, one could never be rid of it.

Co-emergent is a dumb word and is not proper English. It was coined by a German, of course.
Lol, agreed.

I was always curious about this word. In terms of ignorance, what is it that ignorance arises with?
It means that in the first moment that the basis arises up from the basis, one does not know what these appearances are. Hence the term "connate ignorance" (lhan cig skyes ma rig pa).

Sahajajñāna on the other hand, lhan cig skyes pa'i ye shes, refers to the wisdom that one discovers by oneself, so it is a synonym of rang byung ye shes. It does not really mean "connate" at all, in this context.

It is a complicated term, connate for example can refer to the cause, the three afflictions, and so on. It cannot be defined in just one way, because there are many ways of understanding this term. For example, Jetsun Rinpoche, in his commentary on Hevajra, defines it as follows:

The Hevajra states:

Whatever arises connately
is called connate.
Called “connate by nature,”
all aspects are unified and one.

“If it is asked what entity is connate, that is called “connate by nature.” That being the case, there are two types of connate: example and meaning. If it is asked what is the meaning [connate], it means that ‘by nature’ has been so from the start, but is not produced dependently. If it is asked why that is the case, “All aspects are a single vow.” This means that when all phenomena are summarized, they are free from all proliferation.”


But Saraha defines it:

Connate gnosis
is the reality that one experiences.


Aryadeva states:

Because the seed syllable A that is the door to all concentrations is nonarising, it is said to be the door to all phenomena, and is also called connate gnosis.

Thus as per usual, there is no one size fits all for this term. It all depends on context.

M
Natan
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:28 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:53 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:20 pm

It depends, lhan cig skyes in Dzogchen in fact means "connate." If ignorance were innate, one could never be rid of it.

Co-emergent is a dumb word and is not proper English. It was coined by a German, of course.
Lol, agreed.

I was always curious about this word. In terms of ignorance, what is it that ignorance arises with?
It means that in the first moment that the basis arises up from the basis, one does not know what these appearances are. Hence the term "connate ignorance" (lhan cig skyes ma rig pa).

Sahajajñāna on the other hand, lhan cig skyes pa'i ye shes, refers to the wisdom that one discovers by oneself, so it is a synonym of rang byung ye shes. It does not really mean "connate" at all, in this context.

It is a complicated term, connate for example can refer to the cause, the three afflictions, and so on. It cannot be defined in just one way, because there are many ways of understanding this term. For example, Jetsun Rinpoche, in his commentary on Hevajra, defines it as follows:

The Hevajra states:

Whatever arises connately
is called connate.
Called “connate by nature,”
all aspects are unified and one.

“If it is asked what entity is connate, that is called “connate by nature.” That being the case, there are two types of connate: example and meaning. If it is asked what is the meaning [connate], it means that ‘by nature’ has been so from the start, but is not produced dependently. If it is asked why that is the case, “All aspects are a single vow.” This means that when all phenomena are summarized, they are free from all proliferation.”


But Saraha defines it:

Connate gnosis
is the reality that one experiences.


Aryadeva states:

Because the seed syllable A that is the door to all concentrations is nonarising, it is said to be the door to all phenomena, and is also called connate gnosis.

Thus as per usual, there is no one size fits all for this term. It all depends on context.

M
One might want to have a Coemergent Mahamudra lama.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by SilenceMonkey »

:anjali:
Malcolm
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:58 pm

One might want to have a Coemergent Mahamudra lama.
Yes, if that is the system one wishes to practice.
Yklah
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by Yklah »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:28 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:53 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:20 pm

It depends, lhan cig skyes in Dzogchen in fact means "connate." If ignorance were innate, one could never be rid of it.

Co-emergent is a dumb word and is not proper English. It was coined by a German, of course.
Lol, agreed.

I was always curious about this word. In terms of ignorance, what is it that ignorance arises with?
It means that in the first moment that the basis arises up from the basis, one does not know what these appearances are. Hence the term "connate ignorance" (lhan cig skyes ma rig pa).

Sahajajñāna on the other hand, lhan cig skyes pa'i ye shes, refers to the wisdom that one discovers by oneself, so it is a synonym of rang byung ye shes. It does not really mean "connate" at all, in this context.

It is a complicated term, connate for example can refer to the cause, the three afflictions, and so on. It cannot be defined in just one way, because there are many ways of understanding this term. For example, Jetsun Rinpoche, in his commentary on Hevajra, defines it as follows:

The Hevajra states:

Whatever arises connately
is called connate.
Called “connate by nature,”
all aspects are unified and one.

“If it is asked what entity is connate, that is called “connate by nature.” That being the case, there are two types of connate: example and meaning. If it is asked what is the meaning [connate], it means that ‘by nature’ has been so from the start, but is not produced dependently. If it is asked why that is the case, “All aspects are a single vow.” This means that when all phenomena are summarized, they are free from all proliferation.”


But Saraha defines it:

Connate gnosis
is the reality that one experiences.


Aryadeva states:

Because the seed syllable A that is the door to all concentrations is nonarising, it is said to be the door to all phenomena, and is also called connate gnosis.

Thus as per usual, there is no one size fits all for this term. It all depends on context.

M


" the meaning [connate], it means that ‘by nature’ has been so from the start, but is not produced dependently".

In this sentence, "is not produced dependently", to me that seems to be contradictory to the Buddha's teaching on dependent arising. Can someone help me please ?
Malcolm
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by Malcolm »

Yklah wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:52 pm
In this sentence, "is not produced dependently", to me that seems to be contradictory to the Buddha's teaching on dependent arising. Can someone help me please ?
It means that your real nature has always been emptiness, and emptiness is not produced from causes and conditions. To say all phenomena are free from proliferation is to say they are empty of all extremes of being, nonbeing, and so on, in other words they are empty. In the PP Sutras, it states, "Whatever arises in dependence in truth does not arise."

Emptiness, connate, nonarising, are all synonyms.
Natan
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:21 pm
Yklah wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:52 pm
In this sentence, "is not produced dependently", to me that seems to be contradictory to the Buddha's teaching on dependent arising. Can someone help me please ?
It means that your real nature has always been emptiness, and emptiness is not produced from causes and conditions. To say all phenomena are free from proliferation is to say they are empty of all extremes of being, nonbeing, and so on, in other words they are empty. In the PP Sutras, it states, "Whatever arises in dependence in truth does not arise."

Emptiness, connate, nonarising, are all synonyms.
Coemergent comes from the Mahamudra group. And it's connected to those instructions for examining the mind. What you are describing is just emptiness from a sutra standpoint. Coemergent as a term has Mahamudra tantra origins.
Malcolm
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:21 pm
Yklah wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:52 pm
In this sentence, "is not produced dependently", to me that seems to be contradictory to the Buddha's teaching on dependent arising. Can someone help me please ?
It means that your real nature has always been emptiness, and emptiness is not produced from causes and conditions. To say all phenomena are free from proliferation is to say they are empty of all extremes of being, nonbeing, and so on, in other words they are empty. In the PP Sutras, it states, "Whatever arises in dependence in truth does not arise."

Emptiness, connate, nonarising, are all synonyms.
Coemergent comes from the Mahamudra group. And it's connected to those instructions for examining the mind. What you are describing is just emptiness from a sutra standpoint. Coemergent as a term has Mahamudra tantra origins.
I provided citations from one of the tantras that serve as the locus classicus for sahaja, the Hevajra Tantra, above. I've already pointed out that this term is complex. For example, there is a connate of the cause, the connate of the path, and the connate of the result, as detailed by Dombi Heruka in his Sahajasiddhi. According to him, the cause, the mind itself, is the connate nonarising reality of entities. And I provided a Saraha citation as well. So, basically, your objection is unnecessary.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:21 pm
Emptiness, connate, nonarising, are all synonyms.
Would this also apply to co-emergent (connate) ignorance?
Natan
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:37 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:21 pm

It means that your real nature has always been emptiness, and emptiness is not produced from causes and conditions. To say all phenomena are free from proliferation is to say they are empty of all extremes of being, nonbeing, and so on, in other words they are empty. In the PP Sutras, it states, "Whatever arises in dependence in truth does not arise."

Emptiness, connate, nonarising, are all synonyms.
Coemergent comes from the Mahamudra group. And it's connected to those instructions for examining the mind. What you are describing is just emptiness from a sutra standpoint. Coemergent as a term has Mahamudra tantra origins.
I provided citations from one of the tantras that serve as the locus classicus for sahaja, the Hevajra Tantra, above. I've already pointed out that this term is complex. For example, there is a connate of the cause, the connate of the path, and the connate of the result, as detailed by Dombi Heruka in his Sahajasiddhi. According to him, the cause, the mind itself, is the connate nonarising reality of entities. And I provided a Saraha citation as well. So, basically, your objection is unnecessary.
Can be. The Kagyu cite Hevajra but in HH Chetsang's preface to Jigten Sumgon's Coemergent Mahamudra, he cites the Mahamudra Tilaka Tantra and yogini Tantras. As far as I know it's the only path actively calling itself Coemergent, rather than simply referring to the idea.

But since this is in Nyingma, we might want to know what Coemergent wisdom means in the Dzogchen texts. I recall awareness and luminosity or bindus and such, since wisdom phenomena are the path.
Malcolm
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Re: CoEmergent Wisdom

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:24 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:21 pm
Emptiness, connate, nonarising, are all synonyms.
Would this also apply to co-emergent (connate) ignorance?
No, that is ignorance.
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