nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Natan
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:03 pm
yagmort wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:29 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:36 pmIt's not. You just go through all the sadhanas in the book.
so if "it's not" omitted, it's not part of the ngöndro, it's not part of the dzogchen proper and "upon completion of the CN ngondro you do the special Dzogchen preliminaries and straight into tregcho/thogal", where does sadhana of Chetsün sit within the context of Chetsün Nyingtig then?

i am royally confused.
Yes, correct. This is why you need instruction. You need the wang, the lung, and the tri, which, admittedly, are not easy to obtain. You are like someone asking three different people about California. You are going to get three different answers, because we have all received it at different times from different teachers with different instructions, just like someone describing Cali who is from LA is going to have a different point of view than someone from the bay area, and someone from the Shasta region. There is no one answer, but mainly, the long sadhana is used for the empowerment and feasts. It can also be a daily practice for those who want to practice it that way. But that is not the usual approach.
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Natan
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Natan »

yagmort wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:23 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:48 pm It's part of a daily practice.
..and daily practice is a part of..?
One of many sessions. Ok. The text/teaching has parts. Many of them have mantra accumulations. Or other repetitions. I was told devotion is the reason this method is especially swift. The Guru sadhana is development stage. There are the preliminaries which are completion stage. When one finishes the repetitions one progressed to tregcho and togal. I was taught the devotion element here is the reason it is so swift. So one might find the guru sadhana as a daily practice to be advantageous even during the togal stage.
Natan
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:03 pm
yagmort wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:29 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:36 pmIt's not. You just go through all the sadhanas in the book.
so if "it's not" omitted, it's not part of the ngöndro, it's not part of the dzogchen proper and "upon completion of the CN ngondro you do the special Dzogchen preliminaries and straight into tregcho/thogal", where does sadhana of Chetsün sit within the context of Chetsün Nyingtig then?

i am royally confused.
Yes, correct. This is why you need instruction. You need the wang, the lung, and the tri, which, admittedly, are not easy to obtain. You are like someone asking three different people about California. You are going to get three different answers, because we have all received it at different times from different teachers with different instructions, just like someone describing Cali who is from LA is going to have a different point of view than someone from the bay area, and someone from the Shasta region. There is no one answer, but mainly, the long sadhana is used for the empowerment and feasts. It can also be a daily practice for those who want to practice it that way. But that is not the usual approach.
Luckily fo anyone I was born in Shasta, grew up in the Bay and my family live in LA. So I can accurately report everything about California. Kkk
Natan
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:17 pm
yagmort wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:26 am
so it looks like in Chetsün Nyingtig they don't proceed to the dzogchen proper right after ngöndro.
am i getting something incorrectly here?
Having completed the ngondro, one continues with rushen, trekcho, and thogal
The ngondro is not like the usual ngondro. It's completion stage.
Malcolm
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:06 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:17 pm
yagmort wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:26 am
so it looks like in Chetsün Nyingtig they don't proceed to the dzogchen proper right after ngöndro.
am i getting something incorrectly here?
Having completed the ngondro, one continues with rushen, trekcho, and thogal
The ngondro is not like the usual ngondro. It's completion stage.
Yes, it is not like the usual ngondros.
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

Malcolm, Crazywisdom, Sennin, can not thank you enough. thanks for your clarifications.
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KristenM
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by KristenM »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:44 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:06 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:17 pm

Having completed the ngondro, one continues with rushen, trekcho, and thogal
The ngondro is not like the usual ngondro. It's completion stage.
Yes, it is not like the usual ngondros.
Pardon the silly question, but I thought ngondro incorporates the completion stage. What am i missing?
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Yagmort, while I do totally understand your interest and curiosity in the various cycles and their various types of appeal, it seems like you’re primarily basing the decision about what to practice on which of these cycles resonates most with you. I’m not gonna say there’s categorically something wrong with making how drawn you are to a particular cycle a consideration, but since the essence of the path is practicing the intimate instructions of a guru you trust and have faith in, the main point is to follow their guidance about what practice to focus on. You might ask them to transmit and instruct you in a particular cycle, but they may or may not agree that that’s what you should practice. If you truly have faith and a connection with them, their view and guidance are no small thing. It’s the connection to your guru that is the principal fuel for you practice before your faith in a particular terton or sadhana.
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

Pema Rigdzin, yes, you nailed it. i agree. the thing though is that i don't have much clarity regarding my further steps. many pivotal nyingma lamas have passed away in the last 10-15 years. then there is a language barrier: not every lineage holder has english command fluent enough to teach, and i myself doing just my first steps in tibetan. then there are translations of sadhanas and other instructions, many of which have either not been translated yet, or their translations raise some questions. on top of that covid puts lots of restrictions. so meanwhile i just thought not to be passive and learn what i can as i can not predict which line of inquiries of mine can present an opportunity for further steps
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Natan
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Natan »

yagmort wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:50 pm Pema Rigdzin, yes, you nailed it. i agree. the thing though is that i don't have much clarity regarding my further steps. many pivotal nyingma lamas have passed away in the last 10-15 years. then there is a language barrier: not every lineage holder has english command fluent enough to teach, and i myself doing just my first steps in tibetan. then there are translations of sadhanas and other instructions, many of which have either not been translated yet, or their translations raise some questions. on top of that covid puts lots of restrictions. so meanwhile i just thought not to be passive and learn what i can as i can not predict which line of inquiries of mine can present an opportunity for further steps
I definitely sympathize with these challenges you mention. It's our great project as Vajrayana people to do what we can to bring these things forth faithfully. I've been rattling sabers here to encourage newcomers to go to the top of the lineages with unbroken old tantras and get the teachings there. Vajrayana will survive in the West of we establish a foundation.

For example if you look at the Khenpo Namdrol did with Guhyagarbha, Longchenpa's commentaries and Dsogchen teachings in Alameda over the course of 10 years or more, you get an idea of the task ahead of you.
Last edited by Natan on Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:16 pm ...go to the top of the lineages with unbroken old tantras and get the teachings there...
i am not saying i got legit point of view, but the way i see it, even if you do this, i don't imagine Khenpo Namdrol will be sitting there next to you all the long way through giving you pith instructions and finding his way to catch you off-guard to give a skull-cup of alcohol coupled with a shoe slap in your face to get you to realize true nature of things.

wang and probably some personal instructions is the most one can expect from Khenpo Namdrol, and then you'll be sent to some other tutor who will probably become your actual teacher.

call me old-fashioned or deluded, but i do believe guru and disciple have to have intimate connection for the things to work. not saying you have to be buddies to chuckle about something, but your guru should be able to see you through to guide you and kind of cater things for a set of your own peculiarities. for me it is hard to be a disciple of some one who i don't know at all as a person. i like people raw and close, with all their character and warts, not some distant lama who i need to create my own ideas about.

i am not really fond of institutionalized tibetan buddhism. as a westerners we are here, lineage holders are there, and we have this huge chunk of institution between us. as i see it, it is much less a matter of our choice than it is of what is available, in terms of teachers.

feel free to correct me if i am mistaken
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Malcolm
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

I think your expectations are somewhat unrealistic.
yagmort wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:04 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:16 pm ...go to the top of the lineages with unbroken old tantras and get the teachings there...
i am not saying i got legit point of view, but the way i see it, even if you do this, i don't imagine Khenpo Namdrol will be sitting there next to you all the long way through giving you pith instructions and finding his way to catch you off-guard to give a skull-cup of alcohol coupled with a shoe slap in your face to get you to realize true nature of things.

wang and probably some personal instructions is the most one can expect from Khenpo Namdrol, and then you'll be sent to some other tutor who will probably become your actual teacher.

call me old-fashioned or deluded, but i do believe guru and disciple have to have intimate connection for the things to work. not saying you have to be buddies to chuckle about something, but your guru should be able to see you through to guide you and kind of cater things for a set of your own peculiarities. for me it is hard to be a disciple of some one who i don't know at all as a person. i like people raw and close, with all their character and warts, not some distant lama who i need to create my own ideas about.

i am not really fond of institutionalized tibetan buddhism. as a westerners we are here, lineage holders are there, and we have this huge chunk of institution between us. as i see it, it is much less a matter of our choice than it is of what is available, in terms of teachers.

feel free to correct me if i am mistaken
Natan
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Natan »

yagmort wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:04 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:16 pm ...go to the top of the lineages with unbroken old tantras and get the teachings there...
i am not saying i got legit point of view, but the way i see it, even if you do this, i don't imagine Khenpo Namdrol will be sitting there next to you all the long way through giving you pith instructions and finding his way to catch you off-guard to give a skull-cup of alcohol coupled with a shoe slap in your face to get you to realize true nature of things.

wang and probably some personal instructions is the most one can expect from Khenpo Namdrol, and then you'll be sent to some other tutor who will probably become your actual teacher.

call me old-fashioned or deluded, but i do believe guru and disciple have to have intimate connection for the things to work. not saying you have to be buddies to chuckle about something, but your guru should be able to see you through to guide you and kind of cater things for a set of your own peculiarities. for me it is hard to be a disciple of some one who i don't know at all as a person. i like people raw and close, with all their character and warts, not some distant lama who i need to create my own ideas about.

i am not really fond of institutionalized tibetan buddhism. as a westerners we are here, lineage holders are there, and we have this huge chunk of institution between us. as i see it, it is much less a matter of our choice than it is of what is available, in terms of teachers.

feel free to correct me if i am mistaken
Khenpo Namdrol is not that kind of lama. He focused on giving very complete teachings, not big on lots of contact. I've had the sort of lama you described. It's good too, also very difficult to maintain due to ever shifting modern life. And I agree we have to take what they give. When there's strong foundation in Vajrayana we can work on it alone. Like it or not those imperfect institutions are where the goods are held. So, not much choice there.
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:20 pm I think your expectations are somewhat unrealistic.
well, yeah, i figured as much..
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Tendzin Mingyur
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Tendzin Mingyur »

yagmort wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:47 am ...

another bit of info shared with me is Gangten Tulku has allowed students to progress right to the dzogchen after finishing ngöndro, but then again, i don't know what are the steps in Peling tradition?
so one more question i would also like to clarify - is dzogchen section stays the same for all lineages with khorde rushen/semdzin/tregcho/tögel?

...
In Peling tradition are three cycles of Dzogchen. Gangteng Tulku Rinpoche teaches the Kunzang Gongdu cycle. At least that is what he did the last 20+ years. The steps are basic bread and butter Dzogchen: finish your ngondro, after that Khorde Ruzhen, Thregchod, Thodgal and some Bardo teachings. You can get Anuyoga teachings, if you are interested and able to do these practices. The Ngondro text we use, was compiled by Dudjom Rinpoche, based on the practice manual composed by Minling Terchen Terdak Lingpa. The main course is based on this practice manual.

Usually the teachings are given in closed retreats of about two to four weeks in remote areas, every few years, which is a little difficult at the moment. That is why there was only one small retreat in Poland last summer, when travel restrictions were dropped and infection rates were low.
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

thanks for the input
Tendzin Mingyur wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:22 am...In Peling tradition are three cycles of Dzogchen. Gangteng Tulku Rinpoche teaches the Kunzang Gongdu cycle...
what are the other two?
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mutsuk
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by mutsuk »

Longsel Sangwa Nyingchü (Klong gsal gsang ba snying bcud) and Gyübu chung (rGyud bu chung). The last one is a short cycle connected to the 17 Tantras and was originally discovered by tertön Sherab Mebar.
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

thank you for chiming in, mutsuk.

by any chance, do you know the curriculum for Göngpa Zangthel ?
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mutsuk
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by mutsuk »

Those I know who practice the Gongpa Zanthel follow the manual of Tulku Tsullo.
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

mutsuk wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:34 pm Those I know who practice the Gongpa Zanthel follow the manual of Tulku Tsullo.
Only in Eastern Tibet. For example, HH Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche did not have the transmission for this manual and never taught it. He relied only on the nyams khrid alone.
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