nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Malcolm
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

rai wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:58 am so some students have received Dzogchen teachings without following any particular cycle.

what would be benefits of progressing through the path within the particular cycle of teachings? does a cycle carry some particular blessings that make things move smoother towards liberation etc. ?
Dzogchen is Dzogchen, that's the main point, not the name of a cycle.
tingdzin
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by tingdzin »

rai wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:58 am what would be benefits of progressing through the path within the particular cycle of teachings? does a cycle carry some particular blessings that make things move smoother towards liberation etc. ?
In the end, it's all up to you. If you want to find a reason not to follow a traditional path and go off on your own, fine. You may (or may not) regret it in the long run. Examine your own motivation honestly, and examine the motives of people giving you advice.

As far as finding something to "make things move more smoothly" towards liberation, good luck. The path is not smooth, unless you claim to have already walked it from the beginning and there's nothing more to do. But if you believed that in your heart, you wouldn't be here, would you?
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heart
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by heart »

rai wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:58 am so some students have received Dzogchen teachings without following any particular cycle.

what would be benefits of progressing through the path within the particular cycle of teachings? does a cycle carry some particular blessings that make things move smoother towards liberation etc. ?
Yes, they carry a tremendous blessing. If you have faith in Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo and then practice Chetsun Nyingtik it will multiply the faith and confidence in Dzogchen. Very helpful in these times we live in.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
rai
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by rai »

thank you for the answers!
Natan
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Natan »

yagmort wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:47 am i don't know if that is a valid question to ask, but in case it is - is it possible to have a list of lineages/cycles and what steps a student normally progress through on the path after completing ngöndro?

i can not seems to find a source with sctructures of most major cycles which are alive nowadays outlined. there seems to be so many of them.. Göngpa Zangthal, Konchok Chidu, Namchö, all sorts of Nyingtigs, etc.. it is disorienting. i need help navigating here)

some cycles are very short/condensed, like Künzang Thugtig, which only has ngöndro, zhitro as generation stage and dzogchen as completion stage.
i was also told that Chetsün Nyingtig is a very condensed cycle as well, but i don't know what they do after ngöndro?

some other cycles look rather lenghty, like Düdjom Troma cycle or Yangti Nagpo..

to give an example of what i am looking for, here is the example for Rigdzin Sögdrup cycle practice structure:
-the common outer and inner preliminaries
-the development stage of Mahayoga
-the activities of approach and accomplishment (kyerim and dzogrim) of the Three Roots (Lama, Yidam and Khandro)
-the five supplementary yoga cycles of the Anuyoga Dzogrim, which functions through the tsalung and tigle
-the Khorde Rushen Dzogchen Atiyoga cycle of practice
-the primordial Trekchö
-the spontaneously formed Tögal and Osal practices from the Three Series of Dzogchen.

one more example is curriculum for Yangti Nagpo cycle posted at their official site

another bit of info shared with me is Gangten Tulku has allowed students to progress right to the dzogchen after finishing ngöndro, but then again, i don't know what are the steps in Peling tradition?
so one more question i would also like to clarify - is dzogchen section stays the same for all lineages with khorde rushen/semdzin/tregcho/tögel?

while i am at that: what can be said without breaking samayas about Tsasum Ösel Nyingtig and Chime Phagma Nyingtig? are these complete cycles?

i know there are plenty of knowledgeable folks on this site. so, to sum it up, if you know curriculums for a particular lineage and also lineage holders who has been authorised to teach and transmit a lineage, please share your knowledge.
It's true Chetsun Nyingthig is very comdenced. Upon completion of the CN ngondro you do the special Dzogchen preliminaries and straight into tregcho/thogal.
Natan
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Natan »

yagmort wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:47 am i don't know if that is a valid question to ask, but in case it is - is it possible to have a list of lineages/cycles and what steps a student normally progress through on the path after completing ngöndro?

i can not seems to find a source with sctructures of most major cycles which are alive nowadays outlined. there seems to be so many of them.. Göngpa Zangthal, Konchok Chidu, Namchö, all sorts of Nyingtigs, etc.. it is disorienting. i need help navigating here)

some cycles are very short/condensed, like Künzang Thugtig, which only has ngöndro, zhitro as generation stage and dzogchen as completion stage.
i was also told that Chetsün Nyingtig is a very condensed cycle as well, but i don't know what they do after ngöndro?

some other cycles look rather lenghty, like Düdjom Troma cycle or Yangti Nagpo..

to give an example of what i am looking for, here is the example for Rigdzin Sögdrup cycle practice structure:
-the common outer and inner preliminaries
-the development stage of Mahayoga
-the activities of approach and accomplishment (kyerim and dzogrim) of the Three Roots (Lama, Yidam and Khandro)
-the five supplementary yoga cycles of the Anuyoga Dzogrim, which functions through the tsalung and tigle
-the Khorde Rushen Dzogchen Atiyoga cycle of practice
-the primordial Trekchö
-the spontaneously formed Tögal and Osal practices from the Three Series of Dzogchen.

one more example is curriculum for Yangti Nagpo cycle posted at their official site

another bit of info shared with me is Gangten Tulku has allowed students to progress right to the dzogchen after finishing ngöndro, but then again, i don't know what are the steps in Peling tradition?
so one more question i would also like to clarify - is dzogchen section stays the same for all lineages with khorde rushen/semdzin/tregcho/tögel?

while i am at that: what can be said without breaking samayas about Tsasum Ösel Nyingtig and Chime Phagma Nyingtig? are these complete cycles?

i know there are plenty of knowledgeable folks on this site. so, to sum it up, if you know curriculums for a particular lineage and also lineage holders who has been authorised to teach and transmit a lineage, please share your knowledge.
Why do you have this idea of a list of tasks you wish to complete? Are you sure this is what will give you a complete understanding? You've got kind of a mish-mash of terma and kama stuff in there. Generally, it's best just to follow the cycle.

It's not easy to receive a complete cycle or a complete tantric instruction. Probably you will give it your best to get as much as possible and one day take stock and go with what is complete.
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:17 pm ... Upon completion of the CN ngondro you do the special Dzogchen preliminaries and straight into tregcho/thogal...
could you please explain why Chetsün sadhana - which is a decent part of Chetsün Nyingtig if i got it correctly - is omitted?
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:22 pm
Why do you have this idea of a list of tasks you wish to complete?
why do you have this idea i have this idea of a list of tasks i wish to complete? i don't have any list, i ask questions to educate myself on things which i don't know.. that's it.

in another thread about Chhime Rigdzin Rinpoche author ask him:
"...Once, when I was very young, I asked him a question, I think, about the order of the practices in the Gongpa Zangthal “curriculum.” ..."
to me, this is exactly what i am asking here as well. and while , for example, Longchen Nyingtig stages are explained pretty well ( "entrance to the grear perfection" by Cortland Dahl), other cycles are not really covered.
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Natan
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Natan »

yagmort wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:50 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:17 pm ... Upon completion of the CN ngondro you do the special Dzogchen preliminaries and straight into tregcho/thogal...
could you please explain why Chetsün sadhana - which is a decent part of Chetsün Nyingtig if i got it correctly - is omitted?
It's not. You just go through all the sadhanas in the book.
Last edited by Natan on Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Natan »

yagmort wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:14 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:22 pm
Why do you have this idea of a list of tasks you wish to complete?
why do you have this idea i have this idea of a list of tasks i wish to complete? i don't have any list, i ask questions to educate myself on things which i don't know.. that's it.

in another thread about Chhime Rigdzin Rinpoche author ask him:
"...Once, when I was very young, I asked him a question, I think, about the order of the practices in the Gongpa Zangthal “curriculum.” ..."
to me, this is exactly what i am asking here as well. and while , for example, Longchen Nyingtig stages are explained pretty well ( "entrance to the grear perfection" by Cortland Dahl), other cycles are not really covered.
Sure ok. Then get in touch with a lama with one of these lineages and do all the work.
Malcolm
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:36 pm
yagmort wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:50 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:17 pm ... Upon completion of the CN ngondro you do the special Dzogchen preliminaries and straight into tregcho/thogal...
could you please explain why Chetsün sadhana - which is a decent part of Chetsün Nyingtig if i got it correctly - is omitted?
It's not. You just go through all the sadhanas in the book.
That depends on how one has been instructed.
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:36 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:36 pm
yagmort wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:50 pm
could you please explain why Chetsün sadhana - which is a decent part of Chetsün Nyingtig if i got it correctly - is omitted?
It's not. You just go through all the sadhanas in the book.
That depends on how one has been instructed.
That depends on the lineage. It was how Khenpo Phuntsok taught it which is a good lineage.
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:36 pmIt's not. You just go through all the sadhanas in the book.
so if "it's not" omitted, it's not part of the ngöndro, it's not part of the dzogchen proper and "upon completion of the CN ngondro you do the special Dzogchen preliminaries and straight into tregcho/thogal", where does sadhana of Chetsün sit within the context of Chetsün Nyingtig then?

i am royally confused.
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Natan
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Natan »

yagmort wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:29 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:36 pmIt's not. You just go through all the sadhanas in the book.
so if "it's not" omitted, it's not part of the ngöndro, it's not part of the dzogchen proper and "upon completion of the CN ngondro you do the special Dzogchen preliminaries and straight into tregcho/thogal", where does sadhana of Chetsün sit within the context of Chetsün Nyingtig then?

i am royally confused.
It's part of a daily practice.
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by heart »

yagmort wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:29 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:36 pmIt's not. You just go through all the sadhanas in the book.
so if "it's not" omitted, it's not part of the ngöndro, it's not part of the dzogchen proper and "upon completion of the CN ngondro you do the special Dzogchen preliminaries and straight into tregcho/thogal", where does sadhana of Chetsün sit within the context of Chetsün Nyingtig then?

i am royally confused.
I already told you this in private, so why are you still confused?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

heart wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:06 pm I already told you this in private, so why are you still confused?
you must be confusing me with someone else.
you told me about another cycle from Chokling Tersar, which i am clear about.
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:48 pm It's part of a daily practice.
..and daily practice is a part of..?
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Malcolm
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:29 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:36 pmIt's not. You just go through all the sadhanas in the book.
so if "it's not" omitted, it's not part of the ngöndro, it's not part of the dzogchen proper and "upon completion of the CN ngondro you do the special Dzogchen preliminaries and straight into tregcho/thogal", where does sadhana of Chetsün sit within the context of Chetsün Nyingtig then?

i am royally confused.
Yes, correct. This is why you need instruction. You need the wang, the lung, and the tri, which, admittedly, are not easy to obtain. You are like someone asking three different people about California. You are going to get three different answers, because we have all received it at different times from different teachers with different instructions, just like someone describing Cali who is from LA is going to have a different point of view than someone from the bay area, and someone from the Shasta region. There is no one answer, but mainly, the long sadhana is used for the empowerment and feasts. It can also be a daily practice for those who want to practice it that way. But that is not the usual approach.
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Kris »

yagmort wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:29 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:36 pmIt's not. You just go through all the sadhanas in the book.
so if "it's not" omitted, it's not part of the ngöndro, it's not part of the dzogchen proper and "upon completion of the CN ngondro you do the special Dzogchen preliminaries and straight into tregcho/thogal", where does sadhana of Chetsün sit within the context of Chetsün Nyingtig then?

i am royally confused.
There's a dvd of Kyabje Khenchen Jigme Phuntsok teaching the ngondro. He explains that the refuge, bodhichitta and guruyoga is the main path of blessings, he incorporates aspects of the sadhana into the ngondro guruyoga. He explained it is totally complete this way without doing the sadhana. He explained that the tummo section is auxiliary.

That said, I did not have the fortune to meet H.H. so it's likely he taught the cycle in different ways. I don't know. Even so the way he explained it on the dvds was very informative.
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Malcolm
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

Sennin wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:18 am
yagmort wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:29 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:36 pmIt's not. You just go through all the sadhanas in the book.
so if "it's not" omitted, it's not part of the ngöndro, it's not part of the dzogchen proper and "upon completion of the CN ngondro you do the special Dzogchen preliminaries and straight into tregcho/thogal", where does sadhana of Chetsün sit within the context of Chetsün Nyingtig then?

i am royally confused.
There's a dvd of Kyabje Khenchen Jigme Phuntsok teaching the ngondro. He explains that the refuge, bodhichitta and guruyoga is the main path of blessings, he incorporates aspects of the sadhana into the ngondro guruyoga. He explained it is totally complete this way without doing the sadhana. He explained that the tummo section is auxiliary.

That said, I did not have the fortune to meet H.H. so it's likely he taught the cycle in different ways. I don't know. Even so the way he explained it on the dvds was very informative.
Correct, this is how it was taught to me when I received it in 1993.
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