nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

mutsuk
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by mutsuk »

yagmort wrote:
222. For example, Ronald Davidson pointed out in his presentation at the U. Va. Great Perfection symposium that U rgyan gter bdag gling pa does not even list kLong chen rab 'byams pa in his "teachings received" under Esoteric Precepts Series, but rather places gYung ston rdo rje dpal after Kumaradza.
However, in his history of the Bima Nyingthik lineage transmission, Terdak Lingpa clearly mentions Longchenpa (with a short bio) as a disciple of Kumaradza and the latter's heir in the lineage.
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

this question must have been already asked but i can not seem to find any posts.. when did Dzogchen as a path of rushen/tregcho/togal first appear? did it appear as a set of all 3, or some parts appeared earlier/later? what about thögal, specifically?
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Malcolm
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:35 pm this question must have been already asked but i can not seem to find any posts.. when did Dzogchen as a path of rushen/tregcho/togal first appear? did it appear as a set of all 3, or some parts appeared earlier/later? what about thögal, specifically?
Late tenth, early eleventh century, with the production of the man ngag sde tantras.
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

is there any connection to particular names? Vimalamitra, specifically?

can we say there were 2 approaches: Padmasambhava was a proponent of mahayoga where Dzogchen was a great completion of 2 stages, and Vimalamitra's one where Dzogchen was an independent approach with its own set of practices (rushen/regchö/thögal)?
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Malcolm
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:28 pm is there any connection to particular names? Vimalamitra, specifically?

can we say there were 2 approaches: Padmasambhava was a proponent of mahayoga where Dzogchen was a great completion of 2 stages, and Vimalamitra's one where Dzogchen was an independent approach with its own set of practices (rushen/regchö/thögal)?
Even Man ngag sde is connected with the two stages in meaningful ways. For example, one reads in the "Mind Mirror of Vajrasattva" Tantra that the three inner tantras are to be practiced in union. There are lengthy passages in the commentary of the sgra thal 'gyur commentary covering Vajrayoginī practice and so on. The Lama Yangthik has a three roots practice, etc, etc.

The same is true of sems sde, and klong sde.
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

ok, but do we know who first wrote down dzogchen as rushen/tregcho/thogal? when it first became elaborated that way?

wait, do i even understand correctly that there is no dzogchen as rushen/tregchö/thögal in many mahayoga cycles and termas, and in mahayoga context dzogchen is the result of 2 stages in a way similar to how tantra mahamudra is the result of 2 stages?
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Malcolm
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:22 pm ok, but do we know who first wrote down dzogchen as rushen/tregcho/thogal? when it first became elaborated that way?
This is a pretty recent development. Maybe a late 20th century development.

You are trying to tease out a very complicated set of issues. It won't work. Some teachers teach in the way above, most do not. That's because it depends on the person, and every person needs different things.

You should just find a teacher you trust, and practice exactly they way they prescribe. All this angst about this system and that system, the conflict between what western historians claim and what the tradition asserts and so on, is all a waste of your time.
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by pemachophel »

Yagmort,

Please listen to Loppon-la.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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heart
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:25 pm
yagmort wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:22 pm ok, but do we know who first wrote down dzogchen as rushen/tregcho/thogal? when it first became elaborated that way?
This is a pretty recent development. Maybe a late 20th century development.

You are trying to tease out a very complicated set of issues. It won't work. Some teachers teach in the way above, most do not. That's because it depends on the person, and every person needs different things.

You should just find a teacher you trust, and practice exactly they way they prescribe. All this angst about this system and that system, the conflict between what western historians claim and what the tradition asserts and so on, is all a waste of your time.
:good:

/magnus
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

hmm, ok.
i don't have angst, but i neither have much clarity regarding all that dzogchen undercurrents, so i am trying to gain some understanding.
i thought there is more or less conventional opinion within nyingma about things i am asking.
it all boils down to how things are taught and teachers we trust anyway
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Malcolm
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:08 pm hmm, ok.
i don't have angst, but i neither have much clarity regarding all that dzogchen undercurrents, so i am trying to gain some understanding.
In general, these days Dzogchen is Longchenpa's Dzogchen, at least as far as how Buddhists present it. Longchenpa is the gold standard, as ChNN stated many times.
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

does it benefit a practitioner if a root text of a cycle is translated? for example, chetsün nyingthig cycle is translated, while vima nyingthig is not - does that make chetsün nyingthig cycle a better - or a more suited - one? especially if a lama is not really fluent in english? or for a practitioner it makes no difference whatsoever and one can be guided through oral instructions without him relying on a root text?
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Malcolm
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:08 pm vima nyingthig
The Vima Nyinthig is four volumes of dense and difficult material.
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by heart »

yagmort wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:08 pm does it benefit a practitioner if a root text of a cycle is translated? for example, chetsün nyingthig cycle is translated, while vima nyingthig is not - does that make chetsün nyingthig cycle a better - or a more suited - one? especially if a lama is not really fluent in english? or for a practitioner it makes no difference whatsoever and one can be guided through oral instructions without him relying on a root text?
No one is guided that closely unless you and your master enter a retreat together, a highly unlikely scenario. Anyway, if you can read Tibetan it doesn't matter if it is translated or not but it obviously make a huge difference if it is translated if you can't.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:42 pm The Vima Nyinthig is four volumes of dense and difficult material.
how much of it strictly practice-related?


heart wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:01 pm ...it obviously make a huge difference if it is translated if you can't..
i have just begun learning tibetan, but it will probably take a decade before i can read and actually understand what is written. so, you essentially saying that in the scenario when a student don't know tibetan yet and a teacher is not really fluent with english it is indeed better and of huge support if a cycle is translated?
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Malcolm
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:55 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:42 pm The Vima Nyinthig is four volumes of dense and difficult material.
how much of it strictly practice-related?
About 70 percent.
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heart
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by heart »

yagmort wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:55 am
heart wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:01 pm ...it obviously make a huge difference if it is translated if you can't..
i have just begun learning tibetan, but it will probably take a decade before i can read and actually understand what is written. so, you essentially saying that in the scenario when a student don't know tibetan yet and a teacher is not really fluent with english it is indeed better and of huge support if a cycle is translated?
Doesn't matter if the master is fluent because without text to support your practice you pretty much open to doubt and doubt kills vajrayana. If you practice in a traditional way then first you will do ngondro (that has to be translated) then often some sadhana (that needs to be translated) then rushan, trecho and so on you will definitely need a translation and perhaps even other texts to support you at this time. Instructions for each part can be very short and the actual practice very long. The only part you don't need a text for is the "direct introduction". If you like me can't stay close to the master and have no possibility to do long retreats this is a very long process and you need all the support you can get. You don't only need the root text you also need the commentaries translated if there are any.

/magnus
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yagmort
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

well, i thought as much, but that begs the question of how many cycles are actually available for an english-speaking western practitioner? from what i gather there are much more untranslated cycles then there are translated. i am not one of the most informed folks out there by any stretch, but i only aware of kunzang thugthig, chetsün nyingthig, düdjom tersar, chokling tersar, longchen nyingthig, yangti nagpo which are (mostly) translated. what else is translated? something about namchö i've heard will be out of print early 2022.. mindroling ati zabdon nyingpo, jangter, longsal nyingpo, nyingthig yabzhi and many others are still in tibetan only.
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by PeterC »

yagmort wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:52 am well, i thought as much, but that begs the question of how many cycles are actually available for an english-speaking western practitioner? from what i gather there are much more untranslated cycles then there are translated. i am not one of the most informed folks out there by any stretch, but i only aware of kunzang thugthig, chetsün nyingthig, düdjom tersar, chokling tersar, longchen nyingthig, yangti nagpo which are (mostly) translated. what else is translated? something about namchö i've heard will be out of print early 2022.. mindroling ati zabdon nyingpo, jangter, longsal nyingpo, nyingthig yabzhi and many others are still in tibetan only.
I would agree that there's much more untranslated material than translated but even within what you listed above, which isn't all that's available, that's enough for anyone from a practice perspective.
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heart
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Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by heart »

yagmort wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:52 am well, i thought as much, but that begs the question of how many cycles are actually available for an english-speaking western practitioner? from what i gather there are much more untranslated cycles then there are translated. i am not one of the most informed folks out there by any stretch, but i only aware of kunzang thugthig, chetsün nyingthig, düdjom tersar, chokling tersar, longchen nyingthig, yangti nagpo which are (mostly) translated. what else is translated? something about namchö i've heard will be out of print early 2022.. mindroling ati zabdon nyingpo, jangter, longsal nyingpo, nyingthig yabzhi and many others are still in tibetan only.
A lot from Konchok Chidu is translated. Ngondro, Sadhana, commentaries by Jamgon Kongtrul on kyerim, dzogrim and Dzogchen.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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