H.H. Vs. H.E.

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KonchogUrgyenNyima
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H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Hey all,

Didn’t know where to post this, so i posted here because i practice nyingma.

I’m just wondering if there’s any rhyme or reason for the different honorifics in tibetan buddhism? What qualifies a lama as H.H. Rather than H.E.? Are there any hard and fast rules about it?
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:14 pm Hey all,

Didn’t know where to post this, so i posted here because i practice nyingma.

I’m just wondering if there’s any rhyme or reason for the different honorifics in tibetan buddhism? What qualifies a lama as H.H. Rather than H.E.? Are there any hard and fast rules about it?
No rules. Usually given by followers or when they are rich/powerful enough to claim that title really. These titles have spread quite considerably lately. Especially it seems to me among nyingmapas.
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that becomes suffering indeed.

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Malcolm
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by Malcolm »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:14 pm Hey all,

Didn’t know where to post this, so i posted here because i practice nyingma.

I’m just wondering if there’s any rhyme or reason for the different honorifics in tibetan buddhism? What qualifies a lama as H.H. Rather than H.E.? Are there any hard and fast rules about it?
It comes from the time when in trying to figure out how to address HHDL, the UN borrowed the titles used for catholics, HH for the pope, HE for cardinals and so on.
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by Danny »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:43 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:14 pm Hey all,

Didn’t know where to post this, so i posted here because i practice nyingma.

I’m just wondering if there’s any rhyme or reason for the different honorifics in tibetan buddhism? What qualifies a lama as H.H. Rather than H.E.? Are there any hard and fast rules about it?
It comes from the time when in trying to figure out how to address HHDL, the UN borrowed the titles used for catholics, HH for the pope, HE for cardinals and so on.
Titles of nobility.
I’ll have to check a publication I have..

It’s not pretty reading if feudal caste systems are a thing.
It’s actually a Chinese occupation publication,
So one can imagine...
Lots of criticism of the Gaxag government, four Kalons and so forth.

But packed full of incredible rare old Tibet photos.
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KonchogUrgyenNyima
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:17 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:14 pm Hey all,

Didn’t know where to post this, so i posted here because i practice nyingma.

I’m just wondering if there’s any rhyme or reason for the different honorifics in tibetan buddhism? What qualifies a lama as H.H. Rather than H.E.? Are there any hard and fast rules about it?
No rules. Usually given by followers or when they are rich/powerful enough to claim that title really. These titles have spread quite considerably lately. Especially it seems to me among nyingmapas.
That makes sense. I had figured it was something along those lines.

Is it safe to say that official heads of a lineage/sect might have the H.H. title and lineage holders who are not the official head might have H.E.?

For instance, H.H. Chetsang Rinpoche and H.E. Garchen Rinpoche?

Also, my lama has H.E., but is not a tulku of a particularly well known master. He is definitely not rich or powerful. An interesting phenomena, these titles. Seems anyone could call themselves H.H. I wonder if there will ever be some sort of standardization for it.
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KonchogUrgyenNyima
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:43 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:14 pm Hey all,

Didn’t know where to post this, so i posted here because i practice nyingma.

I’m just wondering if there’s any rhyme or reason for the different honorifics in tibetan buddhism? What qualifies a lama as H.H. Rather than H.E.? Are there any hard and fast rules about it?
It comes from the time when in trying to figure out how to address HHDL, the UN borrowed the titles used for catholics, HH for the pope, HE for cardinals and so on.
Thanks for the history on that. Most of the practitioners in my area are catholic converts. Its very interesting this imaginary thread that gets drawn from catholicism to vajrayana buddhism. My theory: it’s all the red and gold.
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by DewachenVagabond »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:06 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:43 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:14 pm Hey all,

Didn’t know where to post this, so i posted here because i practice nyingma.

I’m just wondering if there’s any rhyme or reason for the different honorifics in tibetan buddhism? What qualifies a lama as H.H. Rather than H.E.? Are there any hard and fast rules about it?
It comes from the time when in trying to figure out how to address HHDL, the UN borrowed the titles used for catholics, HH for the pope, HE for cardinals and so on.
Thanks for the history on that. Most of the practitioners in my area are catholic converts. Its very interesting this imaginary thread that gets drawn from catholicism to vajrayana buddhism. My theory: it’s all the red and gold.
A significant percentage of my sangha is ex-Catholic.
:bow: :buddha1: :bow: :anjali: :meditate:
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by PeterC »

There is an order of precedence but I'm not sure it really means much outside of the governmental context. Arguably we should be using terms like Kyabje, Kyabgon, Chogyam etc. instead of HH, HE, etc.
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

PeterC wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 5:19 am There is an order of precedence but I'm not sure it really means much outside of the governmental context. Arguably we should be using terms like Kyabje, Kyabgon, Chogyam etc. instead of HH, HE, etc.
That's interesting. Why do you say "arguably"? what is the argument for or against using these terms. I feel it would make more sense to do something like this. Do those terms have any sort of standardization? or it is similar to the H.H./H.E. situation?
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by pemachophel »

I agree with PeterC. These titles are specifically for Catholic hierarchs and there are rules for their use based on hierarchical ranking. Better to use Tibetan honorifics, but, hey, this is a lost cause at this point. Too many people, both Tibetans and others, who don't understand the provenance of these titles are using them. So not gonna turn this ship around.

But it is kinda embarassing.
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by cloudburst »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:14 pm Hey all,

Didn’t know where to post this, so i posted here because i practice nyingma.

I’m just wondering if there’s any rhyme or reason for the different honorifics in tibetan buddhism? What qualifies a lama as H.H. Rather than H.E.? Are there any hard and fast rules about it?
it's similar to the relationship between Shrutebucks and Stanley Nickles
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by Malcolm »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:00 pm
Is it safe to say that official heads of a lineage/sect might have the H.H. title and lineage holders who are not the official head might have H.E.?
Seems like every terton gets HH. In Sakya, lineage holders like Sakya Trizin get HH; everyone else, HE.
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by andreas.walsh »

My own feeling is that addressing a Tibetan lama with the titles of the medieval Papal court is insulting to the lama and drags him down to an unwelcome level, but I suppose it depends on what emotional value you attach to those titles. To me it's cringey.
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

andreas.walsh wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:45 pm My own feeling is that addressing a Tibetan lama with the titles of the medieval Papal court is insulting to the lama and drags him down to an unwelcome level, but I suppose it depends on what emotional value you attach to those titles. To me it's cringey.
I've always thought this too, but they seem to be readily adopted in the English speaking Dharma world, which is kind of mind-boggling to me.
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by tingdzin »

I could be mistaken, but I believe this whole business of HH HE, etc. in the Anglosphere was started by Trungpa Rinpoche on the eve of the previous Karmapa's first visit. If this is the case, he would have used the Church of England rather than the Catholics as a model, as he was a bit of an Anglophile. Does that help any?
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by GrapeLover »

tingdzin wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:30 am I could be mistaken, but I believe this whole business of HH HE, etc. in the Anglosphere was started by Trungpa Rinpoche on the eve of the previous Karmapa's first visit. If this is the case, he would have used the Church of England rather than the Catholics as a model, as he was a bit of an Anglophile. Does that help any?
The Church of England doesn’t have these titles; it has the Very Reverend, Most Reverend etc
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by tingdzin »

Oh, I stand corrected, then. But I believe most of this usage did start with Trungpa Rinpoche, whatever the source.
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Re: H.H. Vs. H.E.

Post by ratna »

I loved Shamarpa's take on the issue of these titles. Although in his view it made no sense for Rinpoches to use the "H.H." and "H.E." titles, he once quipped it was perfectly fine to use HH for HHDL, "since The Dalai Lama has officially been conferred the title of 'His Holiness' by the Vatican itself". 8-)
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