Milarepa (split topic)

Malcolm
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Milarepa (split topic)

Post by Malcolm »

[Mod note: Malcolm didn't start this topic, but this was the beginning of an off topic discussion in the Gelug subforum.]
Volan wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:50 pm Milarepa didn`t think that these terma practices are the proper methods to attain Enlightenment in this live.
Milarepa was a Nyingma practitioner until he was 45, when he met Marpa.
Kadampa followers of Atisha focused mainly on simple kriya tantra.
That's just not true at all.
Sakyapas were originally nyingmapas themselves, but Khon brothers have decided to quit - only two nyingma kama practices were continued.
The Khon family have always maintained a close relationship with Nyingma terma tradition, right up to the present day. I ought to know. I am a Sakyapa by tradition. The Ngorpas are the ones who were principally hostile to the terma tradition. The Tsharpas, from Tsarchen onwards, were favorably disposed to the terma tradition.
Volan
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Re: Milarepa (split topic)

Post by Volan »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:36 pm Milarepa was a Nyingma practitioner until he was 45, when he met Marpa.
Met him accidentally or met him with purpose?
That's just not true at all.
Read the story about Geshe Drepa. This story is very widespread, you can hear this both from gelugpas and from kagyupas.
This is the example of kadampa tantric practices.
The Khon family have always maintained a close relationship with Nyingma terma tradition, right up to the present day. I ought to know. I am a Sakyapa by tradition. The Ngorpas are the ones who were principally hostile to the terma tradition. The Tsharpas, from Tsarchen onwards, were favorably disposed to the terma tradition.
Any examples from 11th-14th century? Later all the traditions have become softer on that issue.
The truth is they were paying gold for Simhanada Avalokiteshavara which is kriya tantra, not for some terma practices.
Archie2009
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Re: Milarepa (split topic)

Post by Archie2009 »

Volan wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:36 pm Milarepa was a Nyingma practitioner until he was 45, when he met Marpa.
Met him accidentally or met him with purpose?
Isn't there a story where Milarepa received Dzogchen instructions on non-meditation and couldn't cut it, doing just absolutely nothing. He was then send on to Marpa, so with a purpose if you take such stories seriously. ;)
Malcolm
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Re: Milarepa (split topic)

Post by Malcolm »

Volan wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:36 pm Milarepa was a Nyingma practitioner until he was 45, when he met Marpa.
Met him accidentally or met him with purpose?
MIlarepa transmitted the Nyingmapa practices he himself was expert in.
That's just not true at all.
Read the story about Geshe Drepa. This story is very widespread, you can hear this both from gelugpas and from kagyupas.
This is the example of kadampa tantric practices.
The Kadampas all had various kinds of backgrounds in general. So, one just cannot make a blanket declaration, "all they practiced was kriya tantra." It isn't accurate.



The Khon family have always maintained a close relationship with Nyingma terma tradition, right up to the present day. I ought to know. I am a Sakyapa by tradition. The Ngorpas are the ones who were principally hostile to the terma tradition. The Tsharpas, from Tsarchen onwards, were favorably disposed to the terma tradition.
Any examples from 11th-14th century?
Yes, the Sakya protectors, Pañjaranatha Mahākala, Palden Lhamo, and the Karmanāthas, are all from combined gter ma and bka' ma lineages.

Then there are the revelations of Nyang, especially Guru Drakpo, as well as the King's Tradition of Avalokiteśvara from the Mani Kabum, which have been practiced in the Sakya tradition since the 14th century.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Milarepa (split topic)

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:31 pm
Volan wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:36 pm Milarepa was a Nyingma practitioner until he was 45, when he met Marpa.
Met him accidentally or met him with purpose?
MIlarepa transmitted the Nyingmapa practices he himself was expert in.
So the lama who taught him black magic was nyingma and not bon?
PeterC
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Re: Milarepa (split topic)

Post by PeterC »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:27 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:31 pm
Volan wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:29 pm
Met him accidentally or met him with purpose?
MIlarepa transmitted the Nyingmapa practices he himself was expert in.
So the lama who taught him black magic was nyingma and not bon?
He received a lot more than just black magic - he was a Dzogchen practitioner before he met Marpa
Tata1
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Re: Milarepa (split topic)

Post by Tata1 »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:27 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:31 pm
Volan wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:29 pm
Met him accidentally or met him with purpose?
MIlarepa transmitted the Nyingmapa practices he himself was expert in.
So the lama who taught him black magic was nyingma and not bon?
He had other budddhist teachers in between the black magic thing and marpa. Marpa was not his first teacher
Malcolm
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Re: Milarepa (split topic)

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:27 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:31 pm
Volan wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:29 pm
Met him accidentally or met him with purpose?
MIlarepa transmitted the Nyingmapa practices he himself was expert in.
So the lama who taught him black magic was nyingma and not bon?
Mila had ten Nyingma Lamas before he met Marpa.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Milarepa (split topic)

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:10 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:27 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:31 pm

MIlarepa transmitted the Nyingmapa practices he himself was expert in.
So the lama who taught him black magic was nyingma and not bon?
Mila had ten Nyingma Lamas before he met Marpa.
Perhaps there are different versions of the biography of Milarepa? I read the version by Tsangnyon Heruka, translated by Andrew Quintman. And now I see that aside from his first lama with whom he studied reading, Milarepa also studied black magic with two lamas before meeting the dzogchen lama. And then he set off to meet Marpa. I'm wondering about the other six.

And when you say Milarepa transmitted the Nyingmapa practices he himself was expert in, are you referring to the black magic he learned?
Malcolm
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Re: Milarepa (split topic)

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:30 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:10 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:27 am

So the lama who taught him black magic was nyingma and not bon?
Mila had ten Nyingma Lamas before he met Marpa.
Perhaps there are different versions of the biography of Milarepa? I read the version by Tsangnyon Heruka, translated by Andrew Quintman. And now I see that aside from his first lama with whom he studied reading, Milarepa also studied black magic with two lamas before meeting the dzogchen lama. And then he set off to meet Marpa. I'm wondering about the other six.

And when you say Milarepa transmitted the Nyingmapa practices he himself was expert in, are you referring to the black magic he learned?
Tsangnyon Heruka’s bio of Mila is basically a novel. It cannot be trusted for details.
Malcolm
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Re: Milarepa (split topic)

Post by Malcolm »

dzoki wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:58 pm Also Gamgpopa quotes dzogchen teachings in his recorded (by written notes) lectures to his students, so if Milarepa was of the opinion that dzogchen teachings were ineffective, I doubt that Gampopa would continue teaching them.
Not only this, but Gampopa himself sought out the teachings of Klong sde from Dzeng Dharmabodhi, with whom he exchanged teachings.
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Re: Milarepa (split from: Are there tertons at Gelug School?)

Post by dzoki »

Just to add, the idea of terma is not exclusive to Nyingma lineage, as Marpa, Milarepa, Rechungpa and Gampopa hid termas. Marpa´s terma was discovered by Guru Chokyi Wangchug and is included in Rinchen Terdzo. Not sure, who discovered Milarepa´s terma (if I remember right his terma were physical objcets, such as chulen pills and something else, not the Dharma texts). Rechungpa´s terma was uncovered by Tsangpa Gyare, Gampopa´s terma by Tagtsang Repa and also (again, if I remember right) by Jatson Nyingpo.
Malcolm
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Re: Milarepa (split from: Are there tertons at Gelug School?)

Post by Malcolm »

dzoki wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:26 pm Just to add, the idea of terma is not exclusive to Nyingma lineage...
It is not even exclusive to Tibetan Buddhism. All Mahāyāna scriptures, sūtras and tantras are termas by definition.
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yagmort
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Re: Milarepa (split topic)

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dzoki wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:58 pm...If those teachings were so ineffective, it would be quite strange, that Milarepa would trasmit them to Namdzong Tonpa Changchub Gyalpo as innermost part of what became to be known as Ngamdzong Nyengyu...
wait, what? dzoki, are you saying the core of demchog/ngandzong nyengyu is dzogchen instructions? can you give the source for that information? also, what about rechung nyengyu? any dzogchen in there?


Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:22 pm...Dzogchen comes from India...
Malcolm, i must be confusing things but didn't you say something to the effect that dzogchen surfaced in tibet circa 11th century with creation of 17 tantras ? could you elaborate on indian origins of dzogchen?
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dzoki
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Re: Milarepa (split topic)

Post by dzoki »

yagmort wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:26 am
dzoki wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:58 pm...If those teachings were so ineffective, it would be quite strange, that Milarepa would trasmit them to Namdzong Tonpa Changchub Gyalpo as innermost part of what became to be known as Ngamdzong Nyengyu...
wait, what? dzoki, are you saying the core of demchog/ngandzong nyengyu is dzogchen instructions? can you give the source for that information? also, what about rechung nyengyu? any dzogchen in there?
There is a thogal instruction in Ngamdzong Nyengyu. You can look it up in Shakyashri´s manual on Ngamdzong Nyengyu, where writes: "As for thogal practice, there is no need for elaboration here, since detailed instructions can be found in writings of Khyentse Wangpo and others". Shakyashri was considered a tulku of Ngamdzong repa and he revived this lineage by receiving it through pure vision from Milarepa. Not only that, also in orginal instructions of Ngamdzong Nyengyu on 6 bardos, there is short passage on thogal. Since the text of 6 bardos was a kind of support for oral instructions, the practical instruction was given directly by Milarepa.

Edit: There are some other texts in Ngamdzong Nyengyu such as: "rig pa ye shes gron me" and "chos nyid bsam gyis mi khyab pa" which employ dzogchen vocabulary and meaning.

As for Rechung Nyengyu, I am not sure, Rechung Nyengyu is quite large, it is contained in 19 volumes, so who knows. Rechungpa did manifest rainbow body after his death, so it is possible, but then he also received dzogchen teachings from one Nyingma master.
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yagmort
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Re: Milarepa (split topic)

Post by yagmort »

dzoki wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:54 am...There is a thogal instruction in Ngamdzong Nyengyu...
just to make that clear: are you talking about historical Ngandzong/demchog nyengyu or Shakta Shri's pure vision version? Shakya Shri was a dzogchenpa who received Kunzang Thugtig from Khamtrul Rinpoche and Chetsün Nyingthig from Adzom Drugpa, so is it possible he just mention about dzogchen approach here?
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Malcolm
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Re: Milarepa (split topic)

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:26 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:22 pm...Dzogchen comes from India...
Malcolm, i must be confusing things but didn't you say something to the effect that dzogchen surfaced in tibet circa 11th century with creation of 17 tantras ? could you elaborate on indian origins of dzogchen?
The 17 tantras were revealed in the early 11th century, but the sems sde and klong sde lineages are Kama, not terma, and date from their introduction to Tibet in the mid 8th century by Vairocana.
dzoki
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Re: Milarepa (split from: Are there tertons at Gelug School?)

Post by dzoki »

yagmort wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:16 pm
dzoki wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:54 am...There is a thogal instruction in Ngamdzong Nyengyu...
just to make that clear: are you talking about historical Ngandzong/demchog nyengyu or Shakta Shri's pure vision version? Shakya Shri was a dzogchenpa who received Kunzang Thugtig from Khamtrul Rinpoche and Chetsün Nyingthig from Adzom Drugpa, so is it possible he just mention about dzogchen approach here?
Both historical Ngamdzong Nyengyu and pure vision lineage. Let's set the historical Nyengyu aside for now. I clearly remember reading an English translation of instrucions interspersed with song given to Ngendzon Repa by Milarepa which mentioned practice of thogal, but I cannot for the love of all gods and demons locate it now, it seems internet swallowed it :D From what I remember the style was somewhat similar to one in the collection of Milarepa´s songs edited by Lhatsun Rinchen Namgyal. I any case as soon I come across that song I will get back to this discussion. Hopefuly it was not a trick played on me by my own memory :D In any case I intend to put together a thorough collection of Ngamdzong Nyengyu texts at some point in the future. Since there is to this date no such collection (at least not, that I know of) and bits and pieces of Ngamdzong Nyengyu are in various collections such as Drikung Chodzo Chenmo, Damngag Dzo, Gyude kuntu etc.

The pure vision "snyan rgyud gsal ba'i mthar thug" lineage history text called "lo rgyus gsal ba'i me long" says:
"First, concerning the very essence of Vajradhara's wisdom mind, the three cycles of Wishfulfilling gem of Aural lineage, the direct mind to mind lineage of Noble Vajravarahi (went) from Vajrarahi to Tilopa; from him the symbolic lineage of vidyadharas (went) to Naropa, from Naropa to lord Marpa Lotsawa, to Venerable Milarepa Rinpoche, from him to his heart son Ngamdzong Tonpa as continuous lineage from person to person. Alternatively it went from Marpa Lotsawa to Marpa Goyag (also known as Marpa Goleg), to (whom Marpa) gave the most profound instructions of Aural lineage that are like heart blood of all dakinis having few words yet profound meaning. (Goleg) then gave these most profound instructions like one wase being poured into another without exception to Ngamdzong Tonpa. Alternatively Shri Naropa gave all of the profound instructions of the Aural lineage to Venerable Tiphupa. Lord Tiphupa gave the cycle of Dharma of bodyless dakinis and all of profound instructions of Aural lineage to Venrable Rechungpa without remainder of any word or meaning. Rechungpa gave the instructions in totality to Ngamdzong Tonpa..."
So here Shakyashri treats this lineage with the terms of three dzogchen lineages. Also I don´t see a reason for Shakyashri to include note on thogal in the text just because he received it from various teachers and practiced it, he did not include thogal in his Drugpa Kagyu mahamudra teachings.
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yagmort
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Re: Milarepa (split from: Are there tertons at Gelug School?)

Post by yagmort »

fabulous info, thanks dzoki !
dzoki wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:17 pm...he did not include thogal in his Drugpa Kagyu mahamudra teachings...
do you know why is that? also, any idea if Shakya Shri's pure vision ngandzong is transmitted?
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dzoki
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Re: Milarepa (split from: Are there tertons at Gelug School?)

Post by dzoki »

yagmort wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:08 am fabulous info, thanks dzoki !
dzoki wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:17 pm...he did not include thogal in his Drugpa Kagyu mahamudra teachings...
do you know why is that? also, any idea if Shakya Shri's pure vision ngandzong is transmitted?
I suppose because there was no thogal teaching in mahamudra tradition to begin with. As for Ngamdzong Nyengyu that might have been a different story.

Yes there are at least two lineages of Shakya Shri's pure vision, one is so called bone lineage, whose holder is Sey Rinpoche from Lahaul, second one is dharma lineage that came through Lama Sonam Zangpo and its current holder is Gyaltsen Tulku Rinpoche of Bhutan.
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