Because it's a bhumi. It's also the result of thogal that happens in one's own experience.
Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
But 14'th, 15'th, 16'th bhumis are not the result of thogal specifically.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:24 pm Because it's a bhumi. It's also the result of thogal that happens in one's own experience.
Virgo
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
All beings have this kind of potential, but it is based on knowledge, not on techniques.
Virgo
Virgo
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
You're funnyVirgo wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:33 pmBut 14'th, 15'th, 16'th bhumis are not the result of thogal specifically.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:24 pm Because it's a bhumi. It's also the result of thogal that happens in one's own experience.
Virgo
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
Knowledge of what only comes from thogal, which is nature not technique.
Last edited by Natan on Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
You feel that the 16'th bhumi is the result of thogal, I take it?Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:02 amYou're funnyVirgo wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:33 pmBut 14'th, 15'th, 16'th bhumis are not the result of thogal specifically.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:24 pm Because it's a bhumi. It's also the result of thogal that happens in one's own experience.
Virgo
Virgo
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
16 bhumi is yeshe lama, so yes.
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
And what caused you to come to that conclusion?
Virgo
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
Look, the 16th bhumi in Dzogchen is called "ye shes bla ma". That is its name. Yes, there's also Jigme Lingpa's text by the same name, but those are two different things.
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
Probably a lama, a transmission and a practice.
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
Well clearly this conversation isn't going anywhere. I forgot I was on the internet, and actually tried to engage someone, so sorry.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:24 am 16 bhumi is yeshe lama, so yes.Virgo wrote: And what caused you to come to that conclusion?
VirgoCrazywisdom wrote:
Probably a lama, a transmission and a practice.
Virgo
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
Did I not say what you were expecting? These matters are from a lineage. Things repeated many times from lamas transmitting Dzogchen.Virgo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:22 pmWell clearly this conversation isn't going anywhere. I forgot I was on the internet, and actually tried to engage someone, so sorry.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:24 am 16 bhumi is yeshe lama, so yes.Virgo wrote: And what caused you to come to that conclusion?
Virgo
Virgo
Last edited by Natan on Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
You received actual teachings from actual lamas that told you that only togal leads to the 16'th bhumi?Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:56 pm
Did I not say what you were expecting? These matters are from a lineage. Things repeated many times from lamas transmitting Dzogchen.
Virgo
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
Just say what you want to say, in full, instead of asking these kind of questions that you get answers to that you're clearly not accepting.Virgo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:49 pmYou received actual teachings from actual lamas that told you that only togal leads to the 16'th bhumi?Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:56 pm
Did I not say what you were expecting? These matters are from a lineage. Things repeated many times from lamas transmitting Dzogchen.
Virgo
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
Who else talks about a 16th bhumi? No. They said the result of togal is yeshe lama 16th bhumi. They didn't bother to mention your pet topic.Virgo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:49 pmYou received actual teachings from actual lamas that told you that only togal leads to the 16'th bhumi?Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:56 pm
Did I not say what you were expecting? These matters are from a lineage. Things repeated many times from lamas transmitting Dzogchen.
Virgo
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
Yes. They are. This subject is only discussed in Dzogchen tantras. The yeshe lama as bhumi is meant to describe the result that surpasses tregcho. That is togal. There is no togal in any other than dzogchen. So what else?Virgo wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:33 pmBut 14'th, 15'th, 16'th bhumis are not the result of thogal specifically.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:24 pm Because it's a bhumi. It's also the result of thogal that happens in one's own experience.
Virgo
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
I remember you now. You're the geluk apologist. So if you want to engage me, I assume your point is wisdom is wisdom and Guhyasamaja and Togal end up in the same place. Am I close?Virgo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:49 pmYou received actual teachings from actual lamas that told you that only togal leads to the 16'th bhumi?Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:56 pm
Did I not say what you were expecting? These matters are from a lineage. Things repeated many times from lamas transmitting Dzogchen.
Virgo
Ok. I admit this is true with two caveats.
Caveat one: Mahamudra takes a minimum of 12 years. Dzogchen realization at the level of Mahamudra can be much faster than that. Depending on the cycle 3 years ior much less is not out of the question. I know a Mahamudra system that is 1/2 day. So exceptions exist to the rule. But exceptions are the rare cases. We are comparing tantra to tantra.
Caveat two: The result of Mahamudra is never a fully formed rainbow body in one's own likeness like Guru Padmasambhava. Here is where the yeshe lama and 16th bhumi are distinguished. Just like Mahayanists purify more than Hinayanists, and Vajrayana purifies faster than Hinayana, Atiyana purifies more than Anuttarayogatantra and faster.
But the wisdom of all these vehicles is a constant.
Same wisdom? Yes. Same result? No. The fully formed rainbow body is a different result. Why. Different cause. So different cause and different result means it's a different path.
This argument is the same one Theravadists make to say their bodhi is no different from ours. That is true but they fail to understand that view is just one part of view, practice and action. The latter two determine speed and thoroughness of the result which is fourth.
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
My own perspective is to say Anuttarayogatantra and Togal have the same view is being generous. It seems to me wisdom's own appearances is a higher view. To my mind, tregcho is not a view. It's just words..Virgo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:49 pmYou received actual teachings from actual lamas that told you that only togal leads to the 16'th bhumi?Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:56 pm
Did I not say what you were expecting? These matters are from a lineage. Things repeated many times from lamas transmitting Dzogchen.
Virgo
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
Hi Crazy, no that's not me. I am just a Ka-nying practitioner. But really my question is: do you have to complete all 4 visions to attain the 16'th bhumi?Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:17 pm
I remember you now. You're the geluk apologist. So if you want to engage me, I assume your point is wisdom is wisdom and Guhyasamaja and Togal end up in the same place. Am I close?
Virgo
Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis
Someone might skip ahead.Virgo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:12 pmHi Crazy, no that's not me. I am just a Ka-nying practitioner. But really my question is: do you have to complete all 4 visions to attain the 16'th bhumi?Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:17 pm
I remember you now. You're the geluk apologist. So if you want to engage me, I assume your point is wisdom is wisdom and Guhyasamaja and Togal end up in the same place. Am I close?
Virgo