Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

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Natan
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:02 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:21 pm

Its a bhumi
But it says it in a book.

Virgo
Because it's a bhumi. It's also the result of thogal that happens in one's own experience.
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Virgo »

Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:24 pm Because it's a bhumi. It's also the result of thogal that happens in one's own experience.
But 14'th, 15'th, 16'th bhumis are not the result of thogal specifically.

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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Virgo »

All beings have this kind of potential, but it is based on knowledge, not on techniques.

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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:33 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:24 pm Because it's a bhumi. It's also the result of thogal that happens in one's own experience.
But 14'th, 15'th, 16'th bhumis are not the result of thogal specifically.

Virgo
You're funny
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:44 pm All beings have this kind of potential, but it is based on knowledge, not on techniques.

Virgo
Knowledge of what only comes from thogal, which is nature not technique.
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Virgo »

Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:02 am
Virgo wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:33 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:24 pm Because it's a bhumi. It's also the result of thogal that happens in one's own experience.
But 14'th, 15'th, 16'th bhumis are not the result of thogal specifically.

Virgo
You're funny
You feel that the 16'th bhumi is the result of thogal, I take it?

Virgo
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:04 am
Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:02 am
Virgo wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:33 pm
But 14'th, 15'th, 16'th bhumis are not the result of thogal specifically.

Virgo
You're funny
You feel that the 16'th bhumi is the result of thogal, I take it?

Virgo
16 bhumi is yeshe lama, so yes.
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Virgo »

Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:54 am
Virgo wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:04 am You feel that the 16'th bhumi is the result of thogal, I take it?

Virgo
16 bhumi is yeshe lama, so yes.
And what caused you to come to that conclusion?

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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Norwegian »

Virgo wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:38 am
Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:54 am
Virgo wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:04 am You feel that the 16'th bhumi is the result of thogal, I take it?

Virgo
16 bhumi is yeshe lama, so yes.
And what caused you to come to that conclusion?

Virgo
Look, the 16th bhumi in Dzogchen is called "ye shes bla ma". That is its name. Yes, there's also Jigme Lingpa's text by the same name, but those are two different things.
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:38 am
Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:54 am
Virgo wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:04 am You feel that the 16'th bhumi is the result of thogal, I take it?

Virgo
16 bhumi is yeshe lama, so yes.
And what caused you to come to that conclusion?

Virgo
Probably a lama, a transmission and a practice.
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Virgo »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:24 am 16 bhumi is yeshe lama, so yes.
Virgo wrote: And what caused you to come to that conclusion?

Virgo
Crazywisdom wrote:
Probably a lama, a transmission and a practice.
Well clearly this conversation isn't going anywhere. I forgot I was on the internet, and actually tried to engage someone, so sorry.

Virgo
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:22 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:24 am 16 bhumi is yeshe lama, so yes.
Virgo wrote: And what caused you to come to that conclusion?

Virgo
Well clearly this conversation isn't going anywhere. I forgot I was on the internet, and actually tried to engage someone, so sorry.

Virgo
Did I not say what you were expecting? These matters are from a lineage. Things repeated many times from lamas transmitting Dzogchen.
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Virgo »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:56 pm
Did I not say what you were expecting? These matters are from a lineage. Things repeated many times from lamas transmitting Dzogchen.
You received actual teachings from actual lamas that told you that only togal leads to the 16'th bhumi?

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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Norwegian »

Virgo wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:49 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:56 pm
Did I not say what you were expecting? These matters are from a lineage. Things repeated many times from lamas transmitting Dzogchen.
You received actual teachings from actual lamas that told you that only togal leads to the 16'th bhumi?

Virgo
Just say what you want to say, in full, instead of asking these kind of questions that you get answers to that you're clearly not accepting.
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:49 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:56 pm
Did I not say what you were expecting? These matters are from a lineage. Things repeated many times from lamas transmitting Dzogchen.
You received actual teachings from actual lamas that told you that only togal leads to the 16'th bhumi?

Virgo
Who else talks about a 16th bhumi? No. They said the result of togal is yeshe lama 16th bhumi. They didn't bother to mention your pet topic.
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:33 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:24 pm Because it's a bhumi. It's also the result of thogal that happens in one's own experience.
But 14'th, 15'th, 16'th bhumis are not the result of thogal specifically.

Virgo
Yes. They are. This subject is only discussed in Dzogchen tantras. The yeshe lama as bhumi is meant to describe the result that surpasses tregcho. That is togal. There is no togal in any other than dzogchen. So what else?
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:49 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:56 pm
Did I not say what you were expecting? These matters are from a lineage. Things repeated many times from lamas transmitting Dzogchen.
You received actual teachings from actual lamas that told you that only togal leads to the 16'th bhumi?

Virgo
I remember you now. You're the geluk apologist. So if you want to engage me, I assume your point is wisdom is wisdom and Guhyasamaja and Togal end up in the same place. Am I close?

Ok. I admit this is true with two caveats.

Caveat one: Mahamudra takes a minimum of 12 years. Dzogchen realization at the level of Mahamudra can be much faster than that. Depending on the cycle 3 years ior much less is not out of the question. I know a Mahamudra system that is 1/2 day. So exceptions exist to the rule. But exceptions are the rare cases. We are comparing tantra to tantra.

Caveat two: The result of Mahamudra is never a fully formed rainbow body in one's own likeness like Guru Padmasambhava. Here is where the yeshe lama and 16th bhumi are distinguished. Just like Mahayanists purify more than Hinayanists, and Vajrayana purifies faster than Hinayana, Atiyana purifies more than Anuttarayogatantra and faster.

But the wisdom of all these vehicles is a constant.

Same wisdom? Yes. Same result? No. The fully formed rainbow body is a different result. Why. Different cause. So different cause and different result means it's a different path.

This argument is the same one Theravadists make to say their bodhi is no different from ours. That is true but they fail to understand that view is just one part of view, practice and action. The latter two determine speed and thoroughness of the result which is fourth.
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:49 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:56 pm
Did I not say what you were expecting? These matters are from a lineage. Things repeated many times from lamas transmitting Dzogchen.
You received actual teachings from actual lamas that told you that only togal leads to the 16'th bhumi?

Virgo
My own perspective is to say Anuttarayogatantra and Togal have the same view is being generous. It seems to me wisdom's own appearances is a higher view. To my mind, tregcho is not a view. It's just words..
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Virgo »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:17 pm
I remember you now. You're the geluk apologist. So if you want to engage me, I assume your point is wisdom is wisdom and Guhyasamaja and Togal end up in the same place. Am I close?
Hi Crazy, no that's not me. I am just a Ka-nying practitioner. But really my question is: do you have to complete all 4 visions to attain the 16'th bhumi?

Virgo
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Re: Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:12 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:17 pm
I remember you now. You're the geluk apologist. So if you want to engage me, I assume your point is wisdom is wisdom and Guhyasamaja and Togal end up in the same place. Am I close?
Hi Crazy, no that's not me. I am just a Ka-nying practitioner. But really my question is: do you have to complete all 4 visions to attain the 16'th bhumi?

Virgo
Someone might skip ahead.
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