Rongzom Chökyi Zangpo‘s understanding of Buddhahood and Gnosis

[Virgo]

Someone might skip ahead.

Can you explain a little bit more?

Virgo

[Virgo]

Do you mean if you don't complete all the visions you can still skip ahead bhumis?

Virgo

[Passing By]

To my mind, tregcho is not a view. It's just words..

It's not as in your face as thogal but saying it's just words is selling it short no? It pertains to all one's experiences after all and is certainly more experiential than say, a philosophy textbook

[Archie2009]

Pardon me for being so bold, but "just words" sounds a bit dismissive, as if speaking from a lack of realization?

[Natan]

Do you mean if you don't complete all the visions you can still skip ahead bhumis?

Virgo

Correct, or the bhumi goes by super fast.

[Natan]

Pardon me for being so bold, but "just words" sounds a bit dismissive, as if speaking from a lack of realization?

Can be. I just find tregcho teachings often to be very wordy and tiresome. Not tregcho itself. To my taste the Bindu yoga carries all the meaning in itself and one doesn't need to bother sounding fancy.

[Natan]

Pardon me for being so bold, but "just words" sounds a bit dismissive, as if speaking from a lack of realization?

Btw noob alert. No one knows if someone else is realized or not. What does the Heart Sutra say? There is no enlightenment.

[Malcolm]

Pardon me for being so bold, but "just words" sounds a bit dismissive, as if speaking from a lack of realization?

Can be. I just find tregcho teachings often to be very wordy and tiresome. Not tregcho itself. To my taste the Bindu yoga carries all the meaning in itself and one doesn't need to bother sounding fancy.

Trekcho is more subtle, thus harder to explain.

[Virgo]

Do you mean if you don't complete all the visions you can still skip ahead bhumis?

Virgo

Correct, or the bhumi goes by super fast.

Ok, thanks.

Virgo

[Natan]

Pardon me for being so bold, but "just words" sounds a bit dismissive, as if speaking from a lack of realization?

Can be. I just find tregcho teachings often to be very wordy and tiresome. Not tregcho itself. To my taste the Bindu yoga carries all the meaning in itself and one doesn't need to bother sounding fancy.

Trekcho is more subtle, thus harder to explain.

That's true. But then it follows it may be the harder path.

[Malcolm]

Can be. I just find tregcho teachings often to be very wordy and tiresome. Not tregcho itself. To my taste the Bindu yoga carries all the meaning in itself and one doesn't need to bother sounding fancy.

Trekcho is more subtle, thus harder to explain.

That's true. But then it follows it may be the harder path.

It is both the harder and the easier path.

[Matt J]

Per Adeu Rinpoche, trekcho is for lazy people:

It is said that there are two types of Dzogchen practitioners: the lazy type and the diligent type. For the lazy type there is the practice of trekchö, the training in primordial purity. For the diligent practitioner there is the tögal path of training in spontaneous presence. But in both cases there is still the need to practice.

From Freedom In Bondage

Can be. I just find tregcho teachings often to be very wordy and tiresome. Not tregcho itself. To my taste the Bindu yoga carries all the meaning in itself and one doesn't need to bother sounding fancy.

Trekcho is more subtle, thus harder to explain.

That's true. But then it follows it may be the harder path.

[Natan]

Per Adeu Rinpoche, trekcho is for lazy people:

It is said that there are two types of Dzogchen practitioners: the lazy type and the diligent type. For the lazy type there is the practice of trekchö, the training in primordial purity. For the diligent practitioner there is the tögal path of training in spontaneous presence. But in both cases there is still the need to practice.

From Freedom In Bondage

Trekcho is more subtle, thus harder to explain.

That's true. But then it follows it may be the harder path.

People say a lot of things.

[Natan]

Trekcho is more subtle, thus harder to explain.

That's true. But then it follows it may be the harder path.

It is both the harder and the easier path.

Case in point. Tregcho teachers and mumbo jumbo.

[Natan]

To my mind, tregcho is not a view. It's just words..

It's not as in your face as thogal but saying it's just words is selling it short no? It pertains to all one's experiences after all and is certainly more experiential than say, a philosophy textbook

Yes. Agreed. But try relating it in a few words.

[Passing By]

To my mind, tregcho is not a view. It's just words..

It's not as in your face as thogal but saying it's just words is selling it short no? It pertains to all one's experiences after all and is certainly more experiential than say, a philosophy textbook

Yes. Agreed. But try relating it in a few words.

True dat. Meanwhile some fortunate people can get it when the guru simply displays a mirror or a crystal or some other symbolic example

For sure though trekcho is the harder of the two paths to understand

[Malcolm]

It's not as in your face as thogal but saying it's just words is selling it short no? It pertains to all one's experiences after all and is certainly more experiential than say, a philosophy textbook

Yes. Agreed. But try relating it in a few words.

True dat. Meanwhile some fortunate people can get it when the guru simply displays a mirror or a crystal or some other symbolic example

For sure though trekcho is the harder of the two paths to understand

The Longsal Tantra sums it up rather nicely:

By maintaining the view of trekchö
one reaches the ultimate result, thögal.

And:

There are two in the trekchö:
neither a hair of meditation
nor a second of distraction.

There are two in thögal:
light practice
and dark practice.

And:

Since the supreme critical point of buddhahood through understanding
is this unsurpassed trekchö,
that is the meaning of distinguishing mind and vidyā.

And:

For example, like a polished mirror
in which any kind of image is clear.
if the meaning of trekchö is not clear,
even though thögal arises, it will have subject and object.

And:

Without trekchö, there is no thögal.
Without thögal, there is no trekchö.

And

Understanding that outer and inner phenomena have always been empty,
trekchö and thögal are inseparable.

[Natan]

It's not as in your face as thogal but saying it's just words is selling it short no? It pertains to all one's experiences after all and is certainly more experiential than say, a philosophy textbook

Yes. Agreed. But try relating it in a few words.

True dat. Meanwhile some fortunate people can get it when the guru simply displays a mirror or a crystal or some other symbolic example

For sure though trekcho is the harder of the two paths to understand

Indeed the symbolic transmissions style is my preference.

[Natan]

Yes. Agreed. But try relating it in a few words.

True dat. Meanwhile some fortunate people can get it when the guru simply displays a mirror or a crystal or some other symbolic example

For sure though trekcho is the harder of the two paths to understand

The Longsal Tantra sums it up rather nicely:

By maintaining the view of trekchö
one reaches the ultimate result, thögal.

And:

There are two in the trekchö:
neither a hair of meditation
nor a second of distraction.

There are two in thögal:
light practice
and dark practice.

And:

Since the supreme critical point of buddhahood through understanding
is this unsurpassed trekchö,
that is the meaning of distinguishing mind and vidyā.

And:

For example, like a polished mirror
in which any kind of image is clear.
if the meaning of trekchö is not clear,
even though thögal arises, it will have subject and object.

And:

Without trekchö, there is no thögal.
Without thögal, there is no trekchö.

And

Understanding that outer and inner phenomena have always been empty,
trekchö and thögal are inseparable.

So this means to say tregcho is thogal....? Bc if they are really inseparable there couldn't be subject object.

[Malcolm]

So this means to say tregcho is thogal....? Bc if they are really inseparable there couldn't be subject object.

It means that there is no way around trekcho in Dzogchen.