Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

karmanyingpo
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Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by karmanyingpo »

Hi Dharma friends.
I am wondering about Dorje Gotrab, a practice I had the great fortune to receive the oral transmission for. I've heard it is a complete path to enlightenment, but I received it as a practice to protect against COVID. Can I practice the mantra devotedly as a complete path, doing the 3-day retreat, etc., and have the possibility of realization through the practice, or are the deeper benefits closed off to me unless I am empowered? I did ask my teacher about the practice, and he seemed to give me the OK to do a retreat, but it sounded like he felt it might be too much for a beginner and said accumulating the mantra in sitting sessions with a target number per session rather than a full on retreat would be OK, too. This would also let me maintain my ngondro.

In the Dharma,
KN
pemachophel
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by pemachophel »

It was the late Lama Dawa Chodrak who promoted Dorje Gotrab as a complete path to Enlightenment, and His way of practicing was far more than a single 3-day retreat. I was the first of His students to complete the "first level course," and that took 10 years and many retreats, each accompanied by a test at the end, as well as 7-day and 21-day dark retreats. That first level course was itself made up of four "sub-courses." Since Lama Dawa's passing three years ago, His Consort, Khandro Kunzang Dechen Chodron, has tried to continue running this course but the Covid pandemic has put the kibosh on that, at least for this year. I know of no one else offering this same sort of path via Vajra Armor.

Good luck & best wishes,

Lama Pema Chophel
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
karmanyingpo
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by karmanyingpo »

Hello, thank you for your reply. I did not know that it was this one teacher who propagated Dorje Gotrab in this way. So I guess using this as a complete path is not really within the realm of possibility unless I seek out that teacher's consort. On the other hand even if it's not a complete path for me, I assume it's still possible to deepen my practice and progress in my mastery of the mantra?
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by pema tsultrim »

Lama Sonam Tsering (head lama at Pema Osel Ling/Vajrayana Foundation in California) has been giving this practice every year for several years now. He has also said that Vajra Armor contains a complete path to enlightenment, and that it is acceptable to do the practice/mantra with just the lung and instructions if one has the intention to receive the empowerment when it becomes possible. It's always best to follow the instructions of your personal teacher, but if you received the practice from a lama affiliated with the Dudjom Tersar and POL/VF), then the above might also apply. Certainly if the teacher was Lama Sonam it would apply.

It sounds like you picked up from your teacher that it might be a bit premature to do the 3-day retreat at this point. When the opportunity arises and the timing is right, you will probably know that, too.

Good luck! V.A. is a wonderful practice!
karmanyingpo
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by karmanyingpo »

pema tsultrim wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:33 am Lama Sonam Tsering (head lama at Pema Osel Ling/Vajrayana Foundation in California) has been giving this practice every year for several years now. He has also said that Vajra Armor contains a complete path to enlightenment, and that it is acceptable to do the practice/mantra with just the lung and instructions if one has the intention to receive the empowerment when it becomes possible. It's always best to follow the instructions of your personal teacher, but if you received the practice from a lama affiliated with the Dudjom Tersar and POL/VF), then the above might also apply. Certainly if the teacher was Lama Sonam it would apply.

It sounds like you picked up from your teacher that it might be a bit premature to do the 3-day retreat at this point. When the opportunity arises and the timing is right, you will probably know that, too.

Good luck! V.A. is a wonderful practice!
Hallo Pema Tsultrim thanx for the post. :good:
The way my teacher presented it it was primarily to combat COVID and I don't even remember him mentioning a 3-day activation retreat and he did mention other slightly more complex practices (w/ visual) but he said he wanted to keep it simple for us so he transmitted the version with only mantra.
Also I noticed that Malcolm who is respected for his knowledge here mentioned that 3 day retreat is necessary to activate it. Is this always the case no matter what because my teacher did not say that and he encouraged us to practice to protect from covid. Thx again.

KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
fckw
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by fckw »

Regarding the three days rule that also Malcolm mentioned: There is a site on the net stating that, according to Dorje Lingpa, in order to do the Vajra Armour practice one should start with a 3 days retreat where one repeats the mantra from morning, immediately after getting up, nonstop (except for meals) until going to bed.
According to the text of Dorje Lingpa and other commentaries, Vajra Armor mantra should be practiced during a three days long private retreat, without talking with others, repeating it without an interruption from the moment of waking up until going to sleep, except of mealtime. Because it doesn’t require a certain kind of concentration or visualization, it’s not necessary to maintain a posture or regulated practice sessions. After the end of three-day retreat, it is advised to repeat it at least a hundred times daily to activate its potential.
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by fckw »

One detail that I could not fully find information on: What is the relation between Dojre Gotrab, Vajrapani, Guru Rinpoche, Padmashavari, Vajravidarana and Guru Drakpo? It seems that in various sadhanas their names are somehow use interchangeably. In another place I found that Dorje Gotrab is supposed to be an emanation of black Manjushri, also he seems to be closely connected to Dudjom Lingpa's Black Hayagriva practice. So, is it correct to say that Dorje Gotrab is a manifestation of Vajrapani, or is Dorje Gotrab rather Guru Rinpoche appearing as Vajrapani? And what about the others?
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by Soma999 »

I have two sadhanas of guru drakpo, one with vajrapani the other as a manifestation of padma guru.

All those beings are all one. In any deity, see all in one. In any deity all lineage are present, all deities are present, manifestation of enlightened energy, your own wisdom mind one with the guru.

The guru is not only external. It is a principle, and found inside. The outer guru reflects it.

Padma is the guru, all his manifestation show his activities.

Phurba is Padma, Vajrapani also. All one.

They just have different « cloths » to manifest the same light.

I have been told Hayagriva is Chenrezig, and also Medicine Buddha. No incompatibility.

Whatever the empowerment you get, you get it from your own wisdom mind. The initiator allow for this connection. Empowerment does not come as something external. But you are introduced to your own wisdom mind.

That’s why empowerment can take many many forms.

A real yogi can transmit initiation in a variety of way.

The most important is yourself. Transform the soil of your being with boddicitta and practice with sincerity. If your mind open to receive, the seeds will be put into your soil.

3 days retreat if you don’t have the proper guidance can be difficult. Do your best.

Some lamas hold a field of energy. Practicing with them, in their field can produce quick results.
fckw
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by fckw »

By the way, if you have received Dorje Gotrab empowerments from Lama Tharchin Rinpoche, Lama Sonam Rinpoche or any legitimate lineage holder then you can purchase a ca. 2h of oral teachings on this practice online here: https://www.vajrayana.org/bero/.
fckw
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by fckw »

By the way, the lung for the Vajra Armour practice of HH Dudjom Rinpoche was given online just yesterday by Pema Osel Ling: https://www.vajrayana.org/events/188/. Might be he gives it again at a later occasion.
karmanyingpo
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by karmanyingpo »

fckw wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:05 pm By the way, the lung for the Vajra Armour practice of HH Dudjom Rinpoche was given online just yesterday by Pema Osel Ling: https://www.vajrayana.org/events/188/. Might be he gives it again at a later occasion.
Yes I am just curious to learn more about this because
my main teacher transmitted this practice as well but I think I remember the lung was shorter possibly? In any case I do remember he said the mantra appears in several places with slightly different practices and he chose the simplest one with just the mantra recitation (no visual) for our benefit

So I wonder whether the 3 day retreat for activation is something that is required according to each of those different termas or if it is only that terma cited by Malcolm that requires it.

Also I am curious 1. which terma or practice version was given by Lama Sonam and 2. if a person got lung for a more complex version of the practice with visual can they also just practice the simple form with only the mantra recitation.
KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by pemachophel »

Lama Sonam Tshering gave the lung for the Dudjom Vajra Armor sadhana coming from Black Hayagriva. So Lama Sonam transmitted more than just the mantra. The mantra is the same as Dorje Lingpa's, but it is preceded by Vajrapani's three-syllable mantra and the sadhana includes visualization of Vajrapani, whereas Dorje Lingpa's terma does not give any visuialization or sadhana, at least not in the initial phase. I believe the Dudjom sadhana requires a two-month retreat, but Lama Sonam has shortened that to one month. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
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karmanyingpo
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by karmanyingpo »

pemachophel wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:20 am Lama Sonam Tshering gave the lung for the Dudjom Vajra Armor sadhana coming from Black Hayagriva. So Lama Sonam transmitted more than just the mantra. The mantra is the same as Dorje Lingpa's, but it is preceded by Vajrapani's three-syllable mantra and the sadhana includes visualization of Vajrapani, whereas Dorje Lingpa's terma does not give any visuialization or sadhana, at least not in the initial phase. I believe the Dudjom sadhana requires a two-month retreat, but Lama Sonam has shortened that to one month. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
I see, so these are 2 different termas. I think I remember reading that there was a third terma for this mantra. I wonder what that one is like?

Since Lama rinpoche's lung includes the basic mantra which is the same as Dorje Lingpa's would it be okay for someone who only has Lama Sonam's lung to practice just the mantra? I believe generally it's permitted for a person to practice mantras in this way but want to check thanx for your help!


KN
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

karmanyingpo wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:33 am
pemachophel wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:20 am Lama Sonam Tshering gave the lung for the Dudjom Vajra Armor sadhana coming from Black Hayagriva. So Lama Sonam transmitted more than just the mantra. The mantra is the same as Dorje Lingpa's, but it is preceded by Vajrapani's three-syllable mantra and the sadhana includes visualization of Vajrapani, whereas Dorje Lingpa's terma does not give any visuialization or sadhana, at least not in the initial phase. I believe the Dudjom sadhana requires a two-month retreat, but Lama Sonam has shortened that to one month. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
I see, so these are 2 different termas. I think I remember reading that there was a third terma for this mantra. I wonder what that one is like?

Since Lama rinpoche's lung includes the basic mantra which is the same as Dorje Lingpa's would it be okay for someone who only has Lama Sonam's lung to practice just the mantra? I believe generally it's permitted for a person to practice mantras in this way but want to check thanx for your help!


KN
I don't know if it is a terma, but Khenchen Lama Rinpoche has his own Dorje Gotrab treasure and you need either a week long retreat or accumulate 100 000 repetitions, however really without distractions such as pc, etc. He gives the lung quite often, but is really upredictible in his live streams often announcing them 24h before.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by fckw »

karmanyingpo wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:33 am I see, so these are 2 different termas. I think I remember reading that there was a third terma for this mantra. I wonder what that one is like?
Well, I received a lung also some time ago from Gangteng Tulku also with the shorter version of the mantra. The sadhana text explicitly states that it's a summary of three termas, but fails to mention which ones. Its visualization also is not precisely on Vajrapani but on Dorje Gotrab, which, according to my understanding, is Guru Rinpoche appearing as Vajrapani. Also, there are few animals involved in the visualization.

So, yes, there are obviously more than just two termas.
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by karmanyingpo »

fckw wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:01 am
karmanyingpo wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:33 am I see, so these are 2 different termas. I think I remember reading that there was a third terma for this mantra. I wonder what that one is like?
Well, I received a lung also some time ago from Gangteng Tulku also with the shorter version of the mantra. The sadhana text explicitly states that it's a summary of three termas, but fails to mention which ones. Its visualization also is not precisely on Vajrapani but on Dorje Gotrab, which, according to my understanding, is Guru Rinpoche appearing as Vajrapani. Also, there are few animals involved in the visualization.

So, yes, there are obviously more than just two termas.
Woah this just keeps getting more and more complicated the more I learn LOL :rolling: Well this is the inexhaustible treasury of the Dharma, how lovely that this mantra comes in so many different forms

So Konchok mentioned the alternative of doing a 100K accumulation for his|her version... In Gangteng Tulku's version what are the rules for "activation"?

Thanks all for this educating discsussion
KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by Arnoud »

I guess you can't really go wrong with doing the strict 3-day retreat without interruptions and distractions. That should actually help if you want to focus on DG practice and go deeper. The rest really is just distraction which keeps you from practicing what you initially mentioned you wanted to practice.

It's like people saying they want to become monastics but then spent the next 10 minutes explaining why it is and would be so hard to become a monastic. If you really want to become a monastic, you just do it and then see. You can always disrobe.

Same with practicing this. Just do the 3 days and then see what happens. If you do it right, I am convinced stuff will happen and become more clear.
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by pemachophel »

The bottom line for me with this thread (and so many others this last year on DW) is that I just don't believe you can practice Vajrayana effectively via Internet alone. You need a personal Teacher Who you interact with in meat-space, at least from time to time -- a Teacher Who knows you, knows your needs and your weaknesses, and Who can lead you on the Path step by step. This thread is like the blind men and the elephant. When you work with a Teacher, He or She gives you the practice, explains it to you, and then you don't look left or right. You just do it as you received it. If you have full faith in your Teacher, full faith in Guru Rinpoche, full faith in the practice, and full faith in the transmission, then, when you fully do the practice, you get the full result. And that result should be testable.

Sorry if this off topic.
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by Arnoud »

pemachophel wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:58 pm The bottom line for me with this thread (and so many others this last year on DW) is that I just don't believe you can practice Vajrayana effectively via Internet alone. You need a personal Teacher Who you interact with in meat-space, at least from time to time -- a Teacher Who knows you, knows your needs and your weaknesses, and Who can lead you on the Path step by step. This thread is like the blind men and the elephant. When you work with a Teacher, He or She gives you the practice, explains it to you, and then you don't look left or right. You just do it as you received it. If you have full faith in your Teacher, full faith in Guru Rinpoche, full faith in the practice, and full faith in the transmission, then, when you fully do the practice, you get the full result. And that result should be testable.

Sorry if this off topic.
No, I think it is great and not off-topic. But, there are plenty of Lamas who give the lung for this practice and tell their students to do the 3-day retreat first. It seems that is that OP's Lama has done.

Karma Nyingpo, maybe if you ask nicely, Lama Pema Chophel can guide you through the practice? He has been authorized to teach this practice and others and has done A LOT of practice. And he seems like a nice and caring man.
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Re: Vajra Armor (Dorje Gotrab) Question

Post by Charlie123 »

Arnoud wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:18 pm
pemachophel wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:58 pm The bottom line for me with this thread (and so many others this last year on DW) is that I just don't believe you can practice Vajrayana effectively via Internet alone. You need a personal Teacher Who you interact with in meat-space, at least from time to time -- a Teacher Who knows you, knows your needs and your weaknesses, and Who can lead you on the Path step by step. This thread is like the blind men and the elephant. When you work with a Teacher, He or She gives you the practice, explains it to you, and then you don't look left or right. You just do it as you received it. If you have full faith in your Teacher, full faith in Guru Rinpoche, full faith in the practice, and full faith in the transmission, then, when you fully do the practice, you get the full result. And that result should be testable.

Sorry if this off topic.
No, I think it is great and not off-topic. But, there are plenty of Lamas who give the lung for this practice and tell their students to do the 3-day retreat first. It seems that is that OP's Lama has done.

Karma Nyingpo, maybe if you ask nicely, Lama Pema Chophel can guide you through the practice? He has been authorized to teach this practice and others and has done A LOT of practice. And he seems like a nice and caring man.
To me, it seems like the OP received instructions from a lama, read some posts on DW from others who had received different instructions from different lamas and became confused. This happens on this forum all the time. People really should avoid talking and reading about the nitty gritty of Vajrayana practices on public Internet forums. It only leads to more doubt and more concepts.
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