LN Ngondro requirements

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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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Grigoris wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 7:06 pm
heart wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 7:02 pmIn the Karma Kagyu Ngöndro you don't do self-visualisation of Vajrasattva...
What? What are you talking about?
Also, the Karma Kamtsang Ngöndro actually contain a short Vajrayogini sadhana after the guru yoga, but for some reason they always remove it from the translations.
Probably because when you do it in 3 year retreat, first you do Vajrakilaya to remove obstacles. Given that outside of the retreat most people will not follow the program...
Also no one is teaching the Mahamudra to someone that finished that Ngöndro even tough that is the teaching (Mahamudra eliminating the darkness of ignorance) that is directly connected with it.

/magnus
Ummm... Actually I know a number of teachers that do.
I just feel that ngöndro in the Kamtsang tradition is very advanced practice. It got a sadhana and teachings on Mahamudra connected to it so what Malcolm say that you should have the empowerment and the pointing-out to do it seems quite reasonable.

/magnus
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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pemachophel wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 7:26 pm "There is self-visualisation of Vajrasattva in LN Ngöndro tough but no one ever suggest an empowerment for that."

Magnus, Actually, my original Teacher did believe a Vajrasattva empowerment was necessary when doing the LN ngondro and He went into a one-month retreat just to prepare to give this empowerment. So at someone has suggested that a Vajrasattva empowerment is a good thing when doing the LN ngondro.
I believe you, still it isn't really done like this in general.

/magnus
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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Magnus, Either this method came from Chatral Rinpoche or Shuksep Jetsunma Chonyid Wangmo. This is not something He made up on His own. I have also heard about the Vajrasattva empowerment for the LN ngondro from at least one other Tibetan source, but I'm blanking on where/whom.
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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pemachophel wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 7:46 pm Magnus, Either this method came from Chatral Rinpoche or Shuksep Jetsunma Chonyid Wangmo. This is not something He made up on His own. I have also heard about the Vajrasattva empowerment for the LN ngondro from at least one other Tibetan source, but I'm blanking on where/whom.
Yes, I believe you. Ngöndro is an advanced practice and I have no clue to why its treated as a beginners practice.

/magnus
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

Post by Yeti »

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought that in the case of guru yoga in the ngon.dro that one does not need an empowerment because all one is doing is using the samayasattva to invite the jnanasattvas. And one is not doing any internal practices that would involve any internal "tris", as would be required to practice inner yogas using a yidam. ie... you and not activily working with the jnanasattvas in ones heart.

Also, I have been told that Sarma ngon.dro and Nyingma ngon.dros are not the same, as the Nyingma ngon.dros are actually part of the inner tantras, which the Sarma are not. So there are actually a lot of teaching that can be applied to them that may not be relevant to the Sarma ngon.dro.

I was pretty sure there was a self visualisation of Vajrasattva in my ngon.dro where we did the outer visualization reciting the hundred syllable mantra and we did a self visualisation of Vajrasattva whilst visualizing the channels and reciting the 6 syllable mantra (or which we were required to do 600,000 mantras.)

The other thing I heard is that it's always good, at least in the Nyingma, to receive at least one HYT empowerment before beginning ngon.dro,,,, but not a necessity.
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

Post by Charlie123 »

Yeti wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 10:07 am Please correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought that in the case of guru yoga in the ngon.dro that one does not need an empowerment because all one is doing is using the samayasattva to invite the jnanasattvas.
This is completely wrong. If you are curious, I can point you to a reference that explains why this is wrong.
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

Post by Yeti »

mandog wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 11:50 pm
Yeti wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 10:07 am Please correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought that in the case of guru yoga in the ngon.dro that one does not need an empowerment because all one is doing is using the samayasattva to invite the jnanasattvas.
This is completely wrong. If you are curious, I can point you to a reference that explains why this is wrong.
Thanks, I'd appreciate you pointing to the reference to correct this wrong assumption of mine. :twothumbsup:
"People are fond of saying all sorts of things about others behind their backs, mentioning their names again and again. Instead of slandering others in this way, “slander” the yidam: utter his name repeatedly by reciting his mantra all the time." - Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche - Zurchungpa’s Testament - Shambhala Publications
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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Yeti wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 6:56 am
mandog wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 11:50 pm
Yeti wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 10:07 am Please correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought that in the case of guru yoga in the ngon.dro that one does not need an empowerment because all one is doing is using the samayasattva to invite the jnanasattvas.
This is completely wrong. If you are curious, I can point you to a reference that explains why this is wrong.
Thanks, I'd appreciate you pointing to the reference to correct this wrong assumption of mine. :twothumbsup:
If you have access to Khenpo Ngawang Palzang's commentary on Words of My Perfect Teacher, just read the chapter on Guru Yoga. Particularly the final section of the chapter. If not, I'll write out a quote for you when I have time.
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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mandog wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:22 am If you have access to Khenpo Ngawang Palzang's commentary on Words of My Perfect Teacher, just read the chapter on Guru Yoga. Particularly the final section of the chapter. If not, I'll write out a quote for you when I have time.
Supposing we make the reasonable step of taking your word for it, we must still recognize that this is one, perhaps highly rated, opinion. The oft-repeated rule has to apply, doesn't it? Your lama's word is final. And while I see that there are different opinions on this topic, (like so many topics) there are a good number of lamas who do not make guru yoga in the sense of the ngondro contingent on having first received a Vajrayogini empowerment (or equivalent) first. In my own early path through this stuff (of course not definitive) it was only afaik those of us who had been a) given permission for the various ngondro stages and b) actually done them, at least to a large extent, who were even considered for Vajrayogini empowerment.

True, I'm talking kagyu here, but the discussion has bled over already I think.
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

Post by Danny »

the traditional ngondro commentaries say one receives the four empowerments before dorje Phamo, after commitment, purification and enrichment that authorizes the mahamudra/guru yoga practices. And here's the caveat, it also mentions that visually it can be self done as a blessing, and an aspiration to recieve the four empowerments. So without going into actual personal experience, the texts don't actually commit and say "it is done like this precisely". Interpretation door is left slightly open, I'm guessing so the guru can have some wiggle room in regards to her - his students.


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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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Lingpupa wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 9:15 am
mandog wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:22 am If you have access to Khenpo Ngawang Palzang's commentary on Words of My Perfect Teacher, just read the chapter on Guru Yoga. Particularly the final section of the chapter. If not, I'll write out a quote for you when I have time.
Supposing we make the reasonable step of taking your word for it, we must still recognize that this is one, perhaps highly rated, opinion. The oft-repeated rule has to apply, doesn't it? Your lama's word is final. And while I see that there are different opinions on this topic, (like so many topics) there are a good number of lamas who do not make guru yoga in the sense of the ngondro contingent on having first received a Vajrayogini empowerment (or equivalent) first. In my own early path through this stuff (of course not definitive) it was only afaik those of us who had been a) given permission for the various ngondro stages and b) actually done them, at least to a large extent, who were even considered for Vajrayogini empowerment.

True, I'm talking kagyu here, but the discussion has bled over already I think.
Look, all I can do is point you to authoritative texts. What I wrote is also true for Kagyupas: this point is made in Torch of Certainty, well at least in Kalu Rinpoche's notes on the text.

See note 19 of Chapter 5.
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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heart wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 8:11 pmYes, I believe you. Ngöndro is an advanced practice and I have no clue to why its treated as a beginners practice.

/magnus
Why do you believe it is an advanced practice?

Why would contemplating the Four Thoughts be advanced?

Refuge and bodhicitta?

Accumulating merit through mandala offerings?

Okay, maybe the Vajrasattva part, but even then there is (as you rightly pointed out) no self-visualisation, so even in terms of tantra it is pretty "low" on the scale. It is basically a purification practice to prepare one for Vajrayogini (for example), so...

So how, in your opinion, is it advanced?
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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Grigoris wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 5:22 pm
heart wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 8:11 pmYes, I believe you. Ngöndro is an advanced practice and I have no clue to why its treated as a beginners practice.

/magnus
Why do you believe it is an advanced practice?

Why would contemplating the Four Thoughts be advanced?

Refuge and bodhicitta?

Accumulating merit through mandala offerings?

Okay, maybe the Vajrasattva part, but even then there is (as you rightly pointed out) no self-visualisation, so even in terms of tantra it is pretty "low" on the scale. Even then it is a purification practice to prepare one for Vajrayogini (for example), so...

How, in your opinion, is it advanced?
The whole Ngondro is a condensed Guru Yoga that is supposed to qualify you for the highest teachings of Mahamudra and Dzogchen. As you know there is nothing higher than Guru Yoga. Read Khenpo Ngakchungs life story if you want to understand. For example in the Longchen Nyingtik the actual Guru Yoga is considered the outer sadhana of the four levels of Guru sadhana in the LN.

/magnus
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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Grigoris wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 5:22 pm
Why would contemplating the Four Thoughts be advanced?
Part of the shared preliminaries, so, suitable for beginners and advanced alike,
Refuge and bodhicitta?
These are unshared refuge and bodhicitta, since there is also a guru jewel, in addition to the usual three.
Accumulating merit through mandala offerings?
Mandala offerings are strictly found in HYT, their source is the Guyasamaja, and are actually a branch of guru yoga proper. Sometimes, they are placed before Vajrasattva, but generally, in most ngondros, they come after.
Okay, maybe the Vajrasattva part, but even then there is (as you rightly pointed out) no self-visualisation, so even in terms of tantra it is pretty "low" on the scale. It is basically a purification practice to prepare one for Vajrayogini (for example), so...
Vajrasattva is from Yoga tantra. But the visualizations used in Ngondro (central channel, etc.) come from HYT.
So how, in your opinion, is it advanced?
One can realize the meaning of Dzogchen/Mahamudra through guru yoga alone. Not only is it advanced, it is the pinnacle of all practices. You don't really need anything else.
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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heart wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 6:53 pm Yes, I know there are different opinion on this subject and we discussed it before. But as you say this is the way it is done these day in the Kagyu and Nyingma. I personally feel like there is a missing link between being a beginner in Vajrayana and then instantly starting with Ngondro.

/magnus
Sakyapas hit you with the mandala up front, it's the older way of doing things.
If we're being honest though, I think the Gelugpa approach of lam-rim prior to Vajrayana makes the most sense for westerners. Helps you develop a solid understanding of what this is all about.
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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Varis wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 6:39 pm
Sakyapas hit you with the mandala up front, it's the older way of doing things.
The reason why Sakyapas insist on empowerment first is that 1) it has to with the Sakyapa theory, articulated by Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen, that there are two approaches to entering secret mantra: a gradual one for less fortunate students, which is consistent with the Kadampa/Kagyu/Gelug graduated approach (rim gyis pa); and the sudden approach (cig car ba) for more fortunate students, where one is given the ripening empowerment with little or no preparation. 2) It has to with Sakya Pandita's assertion that one cannot be said it have a secret mantra guru without having received empowerment, and therefore, secret mantra practices like vajrasattva, mandala, and guru yoga are not appropriate for those who have no been ripened by empowerment. The Nyingmapas generally are more in accord with the Sakya POV, with some differences in terms of their understanding of direct introduction as a means of ripening, for Nyingmapas it is valid; but not for Sakyapas, who insist that direct introductions should only be given on the basis of having received a full major empowerment.
If we're being honest though, I think the Gelugpa approach of lam-rim prior to Vajrayana makes the most sense for westerners. Helps you develop a solid understanding of what this is all about.
I don't agree with this perspective. Vajrayāna first; life is short, time is passing, and we are living in time.
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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Malcolm wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 6:50 pm The reason why Sakyapas insist on empowerment first is that 1) it has to with the Sakyapa theory, articulated by Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen, that there are two approaches to entering secret mantra: a gradual one for less fortunate students, which is consistent with the Kadampa/Kagyu/Gelug graduated approach (rim gyis pa); and the sudden approach (cig car ba) for more fortunate students, where one is given the ripening empowerment with little or no preparation. 2) It has to with Sakya Pandita's assertion that one cannot be said it have a secret mantra guru without having received empowerment, and therefore, secret mantra practices like vajrasattva, mandala, and guru yoga are not appropriate for those who have no been ripened by empowerment. The Nyingmapas generally are more in accord with the Sakya POV, with some differences in terms of their understanding of direct introduction as a means of ripening, for Nyingmapas it is valid; but not for Sakyapas, who insist that direct introductions should only be given on the basis of having received a full major empowerment.
Very interesting. Thank you, Malcom.
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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Varis wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 6:55 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 6:50 pm The reason why Sakyapas insist on empowerment first is that 1) it has to with the Sakyapa theory, articulated by Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen, that there are two approaches to entering secret mantra: a gradual one for less fortunate students, which is consistent with the Kadampa/Kagyu/Gelug graduated approach (rim gyis pa); and the sudden approach (cig car ba) for more fortunate students, where one is given the ripening empowerment with little or no preparation. 2) It has to with Sakya Pandita's assertion that one cannot be said it have a secret mantra guru without having received empowerment, and therefore, secret mantra practices like vajrasattva, mandala, and guru yoga are not appropriate for those who have no been ripened by empowerment. The Nyingmapas generally are more in accord with the Sakya POV, with some differences in terms of their understanding of direct introduction as a means of ripening, for Nyingmapas it is valid; but not for Sakyapas, who insist that direct introductions should only be given on the basis of having received a full major empowerment.
Very interesting. Thank you, Malcom.
I should also add, that i don't know anyone who ever managed to complete a ngondro without having, at some point during their ngondro, receiving a full empowerment or at least "a blessing" initiation.
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

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Malcolm wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 7:07 pm
Varis wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 6:55 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 6:50 pm The reason why Sakyapas insist on empowerment first is that 1) it has to with the Sakyapa theory, articulated by Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen, that there are two approaches to entering secret mantra: a gradual one for less fortunate students, which is consistent with the Kadampa/Kagyu/Gelug graduated approach (rim gyis pa); and the sudden approach (cig car ba) for more fortunate students, where one is given the ripening empowerment with little or no preparation. 2) It has to with Sakya Pandita's assertion that one cannot be said it have a secret mantra guru without having received empowerment, and therefore, secret mantra practices like vajrasattva, mandala, and guru yoga are not appropriate for those who have no been ripened by empowerment. The Nyingmapas generally are more in accord with the Sakya POV, with some differences in terms of their understanding of direct introduction as a means of ripening, for Nyingmapas it is valid; but not for Sakyapas, who insist that direct introductions should only be given on the basis of having received a full major empowerment.
Very interesting. Thank you, Malcom.
I should also add, that i don't know anyone who ever managed to complete a ngondro without having, at some point during their ngondro, receiving a full empowerment or at least "a blessing" initiation.
That is a good point. Recently I been thinking about how all my wishes for practice and knowledge have been fulfilling itself over the years I been practitioner. Many times I wished someone would translate the 17 tantras, for example. :smile:

/magnus
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Re: LN Ngondro requirements

Post by Grigoris »

Thanks to everybody for their replies.

Crystal clear! :twothumbsup:
2) It has to with Sakya Pandita's assertion that one cannot be said it have a secret mantra guru without having received empowerment, and therefore, secret mantra practices like vajrasattva, mandala, and guru yoga are not appropriate for those who have no been ripened by empowerment.
This makes sense.

It also makes sense that without having entered into the mandala/lineage of a Guru (via empowerment) it would not make much sense to do a Guru Yoga.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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