Dudjom Dzambala Practice

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
He often mentions that if people do not keep their samaya, it will damage the teachings. When you make teachings more popular, more people with broken samaya come into contact with them, etc. You do the math.

Yes but what is the math happening in the minds of wisdom masters like ChNN, Dudjom Rinpoche, Garchen Rinpoche, HHDL,
Karmapa, etc. who decide that giving large public transmissions—even some globally webcast ones—have benefits that outweigh the pitfalls?
That is a good question, and one I am not prepared to answer for them. All I can tell you is what I have found in classical literature on the subject. For example, ChNN pointed out that Longde practitioners ceased attaining rainbow body at a certain point in time because of broken samayas in the lineage. And of course, I have no idea if any present day Longde practitioners are going to attain rainbow body either, even though ChNN's revival of Longde in Longsal is a very important development. All we can expect, as practitioners of recent terma cycles, is that the samayas in these lineages are pure and thus the teachings will be very, very effective for their practitioners.
However if we recieve teachings from an acomplished lama with whom we can be sure he has not broken his samaya, then the teching should be still as powerful as powerful as at the beginning if the lineage of that teaching is pure, right?

Isn't breaking samaya quite hard though?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Malcolm »

Miroku wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:

Yes but what is the math happening in the minds of wisdom masters like ChNN, Dudjom Rinpoche, Garchen Rinpoche, HHDL,
Karmapa, etc. who decide that giving large public transmissions—even some globally webcast ones—have benefits that outweigh the pitfalls?
That is a good question, and one I am not prepared to answer for them. All I can tell you is what I have found in classical literature on the subject. For example, ChNN pointed out that Longde practitioners ceased attaining rainbow body at a certain point in time because of broken samayas in the lineage. And of course, I have no idea if any present day Longde practitioners are going to attain rainbow body either, even though ChNN's revival of Longde in Longsal is a very important development. All we can expect, as practitioners of recent terma cycles, is that the samayas in these lineages are pure and thus the teachings will be very, very effective for their practitioners.
However if we recieve teachings from an acomplished lama with whom we can be sure he has not broken his samaya, then the teching should be still as powerful as powerful as at the beginning if the lineage of that teaching is pure, right?

Isn't breaking samaya quite hard though?
The issue is not generally with the Lamas in a lineage, The issue is the students.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Adamantine
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Adamantine »

pemachophel wrote:"Without supreme siddhi everything else is only samsaric activity and no guarantee it actually brings benefit to sentience beings"

Which is why every time we pray for siddhi we always pray for both supreme and ordinary siddhi. My point being that these are the same two wings of the bird as wisdom and skillful means. We need both and shouldn't denigrate or minimize the importance of either.
:good:
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by TharpaChodron »

Malcolm wrote:
Miroku wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
That is a good question, and one I am not prepared to answer for them. All I can tell you is what I have found in classical literature on the subject. For example, ChNN pointed out that Longde practitioners ceased attaining rainbow body at a certain point in time because of broken samayas in the lineage. And of course, I have no idea if any present day Longde practitioners are going to attain rainbow body either, even though ChNN's revival of Longde in Longsal is a very important development. All we can expect, as practitioners of recent terma cycles, is that the samayas in these lineages are pure and thus the teachings will be very, very effective for their practitioners.
However if we recieve teachings from an acomplished lama with whom we can be sure he has not broken his samaya, then the teching should be still as powerful as powerful as at the beginning if the lineage of that teaching is pure, right?

Isn't breaking samaya quite hard though?
The issue is not generally with the Lamas in a lineage, The issue is the students.
why should the students, who are by nature learning and imperfect, be an issue with the value of the teaching and the Lamas?
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Malcolm »

TharpaChodron wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Miroku wrote:
However if we recieve teachings from an acomplished lama with whom we can be sure he has not broken his samaya, then the teching should be still as powerful as powerful as at the beginning if the lineage of that teaching is pure, right?

Isn't breaking samaya quite hard though?
The issue is not generally with the Lamas in a lineage, The issue is the students.
why should the students, who are by nature learning and imperfect, be an issue with the value of the teaching and the Lamas?
When students break samaya it affects their Guru's possibility of manifesting Rainbow body, among other things, and generally degrades the power of a given lineage. This is why in every generation there are tertons like Dudjom Rinpoche, and so on. But after some time broken samayas on the part of the students degrade the blessings of these teachings and they are not as effective, signaling the need for new termas.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Karinos
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Karinos »

pemachophel wrote:"Without supreme siddhi everything else is only samsaric activity and no guarantee it actually brings benefit to sentience beings"

Which is why every time we pray for siddhi we always pray for both supreme and ordinary siddhi. My point being that these are the same two wings of the bird as wisdom and skillful means. We need both and shouldn't denigrate or minimize the importance of either.

well that's a little different from what most of my teachers advise, they say when you realise ultimate all qualities to perform four activities comes naturally as they are always present in our mind, therefore focusing on realisation the highest siddhi is crucial. Also ordinary siddhis are called like that, because you may develop some practicing many paths (not necessary Dharma) and they are "common" and they don't bring you to ultimate realisation. Just a fool's gold
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by TharpaChodron »

Malcolm wrote:
TharpaChodron wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The issue is not generally with the Lamas in a lineage, The issue is the students.
why should the students, who are by nature learning and imperfect, be an issue with the value of the teaching and the Lamas?
When students break samaya it affects their Guru's possibility of manifesting Rainbow body, among other things, and generally degrades the power of a given lineage. This is why in every generation there are tertons like Dudjom Rinpoche, and so on. But after some time broken samayas on the part of the students degrade the blessings of these teachings and they are not as effective, signaling the need for new termas.

thanks for the clarification. I did not know that was one of the reasons for new termas. makes sense though.
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Adamantine »

Karinos wrote:
pemachophel wrote:"Without supreme siddhi everything else is only samsaric activity and no guarantee it actually brings benefit to sentience beings"

Which is why every time we pray for siddhi we always pray for both supreme and ordinary siddhi. My point being that these are the same two wings of the bird as wisdom and skillful means. We need both and shouldn't denigrate or minimize the importance of either.

well that's a little different from what most of my teachers advise, they say when you realise ultimate all qualities to perform four activities comes naturally as they are always present in our mind, therefore focusing on realisation the highest siddhi is crucial. Also ordinary siddhis are called like that, because you may develop some practicing many paths (not necessary Dharma) and they are "common" and they don't bring you to ultimate realisation. Just a fool's gold

I'm guessing that there's likely a different emphasis on this
according to which teachers you have and what lineage. In the
Ngakpa lineages of Nyingma Pema Chophel is correct in what he says. If your teacher advises otherwise of course you should follow what they say: but Pema Chophel is not incorrect. As I quote earlier in this thread, there's that Tibetan saying "every Lama has their own Dharma"
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Adamantine »

Karinos wrote:Just a fool's gold
I'd say more like silver: not as valuable as gold, but certainly valuable and not to be discarded.. especially if one can benefit others with it..
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by dzogchungpa »

Adamantine wrote:
Karinos wrote:Just a fool's gold
I'd say more like silver: not as valuable as gold, but certainly valuable and not to be discarded.. especially if one can benefit others with it..
Is there such a thing as fool's silver?


Image



Anyway, Karinos, I just noticed that you and Cone almost look like brothers:

Image Image
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

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Uh oh, it's Cone's sock puppet! :shock:
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Karinos »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Anyway, Karinos, I just noticed that you and Cone almost look like brothers:
I know right :)
Cone was a great help to me advising on some Shangpa teachings, so defo Vajra brother :anjali:
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Karinos »

Adamantine wrote: I'm guessing that there's likely a different emphasis on this according to which teachers you have and what lineage. In the Ngakpa lineages of Nyingma Pema Chophel is correct in what he says. If your teacher advises otherwise of course you should follow what they say: but Pema Chophel is not incorrect. As I quote earlier in this thread, there's that Tibetan saying "every Lama has their own Dharma"
Yes that is true for Nyigma in particular for ngagpas, but you know ngagpa is also just a "job" of healing, repealing, balancing, protecting etc. etc.
I've studied/study with Kaguy, Gelug and Nyingma masters. In particular I enjoy Gelugpa views + conduct and Nyingmapa style rituals :) So my view is more of Gelugpas I think, but I didn't spot Lopon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche saying something different so far, he often emphasizes importance of main practice in opposition to favor activities, but then I never ask that question directly. Maybe I will in August when I see him :anjali:
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Adamantine »

Karinos wrote:
but you know ngagpa is also just a "job" of healing, repealing, balancing, protecting
Not quite!

http://www.shambhala.com/snowlion_artic ... -rinpoche/
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

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but Rinpoche is saying exactly the same :)
Q: Is a ngakpa lineage more involved with working with the natural forces, the deities of the weather, the local deities? Do they have a more shamanic tradition?

A: They are engaged in similar rituals and ceremonies as those in the shamanic tradition but there is a distinct difference. This is, for the ngakpa the purpose and final goal is enlightenment in order to liberate others and self. Usually in the shamanic tradition no one talks of enlightenment—it’s only for healings and temporary performance which are maybe only for this life’s well-being. The goal is not as high.

Q: I see. You are saying that ngakpas will do similar kinds of things as shamans but the purpose is for creating better conditions for enlightenment, either mental or physical?

A: Yes. Simply, ngakpas do what they do not only for the present moment’s well-being but also for future enlightenment.
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

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Karinos wrote:but Rinpoche is saying exactly the same :)
Q: Is a ngakpa lineage more involved with working with the natural forces, the deities of the weather, the local deities? Do they have a more shamanic tradition?

A: They are engaged in similar rituals and ceremonies as those in the shamanic tradition but there is a distinct difference. This is, for the ngakpa the purpose and final goal is enlightenment in order to liberate others and self. Usually in the shamanic tradition no one talks of enlightenment—it’s only for healings and temporary performance which are maybe only for this life’s well-being. The goal is not as high.

Q: I see. You are saying that ngakpas will do similar kinds of things as shamans but the purpose is for creating better conditions for enlightenment, either mental or physical?

A: Yes. Simply, ngakpas do what they do not only for the present moment’s well-being but also for future enlightenment.
The same thing as me? Certainly.. I wouldn't say he's saying anything like what you've said.. especially if you review the whole interview.
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Adamantine »

For instance, if I'm a Hindu Nepali and I walk around the Boudhanath stupa to get from my office to my home (1/2 round on the way in the morning and the other half going home at night) because it's in the way and it's the quickest path for me.. I may still get a little incidental merit (like the fly killed by the boy building the stupa who was reborn as that boys daughter Princess Pema Tsal when he was incarnated as King Trisong Deutson) but that is vastly different from a Buddhist with great faith who does a circumambulation once a day with deep motivation to reach enlightenment for all, is mindful of that and rigpa the whole time, and who dedicates the merit at the end.

A Shaman may have mixed methods and results.. and unknown motivations.. even if their activities look similar, they are nothing alike. A Ngakpa will always have the pure motivation and help draw the minds of beings they're connecting to and benefiting more deeply into the Dharma. Just being around a real Ngakpa is a huge blessing. Any activities they've been requested to do are performed through compassion and the temdrel of the request, and not as a job. You should probably ask the Loppon for further clarification.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

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this is nice, but many western "ngagpas" I met have little clue about Mahayana motivation and are just simply attracted to Tibetan shamanism. They look for exotic courses and empowerments for wealth, healing and power to get rich, healthy and powerful. Fortunately Lamas are smart to use this occasion to teach something about Mahayana, Tantra or Dzogchen, so there is still hope :)
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Malcolm »

Karinos wrote:this is nice, but many western "ngagpas" I met have little clue about Mahayana motivation and are just simply attracted to Tibetan shamanism. They look for exotic courses and empowerments for wealth, healing and power to get rich, healthy and powerful. Fortunately Lamas are smart to use this occasion to teach something about Mahayana, Tantra or Dzogchen, so there is still hope :)
The ngakpa ordination is connected with both Dzogchen view and great compassion for sentient beings, so you might be talking about ngakpa wannabes, people who like wearing the outer paraphernalia of ngakpas, but you are not talking about real ngakpas, western or otherwise.
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