Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Seeking Wisdom
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Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Seeking Wisdom »

Hello everyone,

I figured I'd post here to see if anyone has any information of the practice of Orgyen Khandro Norlha, which is the Dudjom Tersar Dzambhala practice. I guess there are a few different texts in the cycle, one particularly associated with treasure vase construction and another that is a sadhana for daily practice. I've also read that Khandro Norlha represents the "inner" aspect of the lama portion of three roots practice in the Tersar.

A couple questions, is the sadhana that is meant to function as a daily practice beneficial to those who have not had any Mahayoga empowerment, is it something that someone would do as part of three roots practice after ngondro? Also, what are the benefits of attending such an empowerment? I often find that my financial situation precludes me from taking part in retreats and things like that, so would attending something like this help to alleviate that?

It doesn't seem there's much information online at all about this, besides an entry on Rigpa Wiki, so just reaching out to see if anyone knows a bit more about it.

Thanks!
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by pemachophel »

Yes, it is part of the Dudjom Tersar Three Roots, and yes, it is meant to be done after having completed ngondro. Also, the person doing it should have received empowerment and oral transmission. The short daily practice (gun-khyer) is meant to keep the practice alive from the time one receives the empowerment until one can accomplish it in retreat or to keep the practice up to par after retreat. While simply doing the gun-khyer without having done ngondro may have some benefits, don't expect the practice to display its full potential results -- unless, of course, you have extraordinary faith.

Just getting the empowerment is not necessarily going to improve your finances.

May I suggest you chant the Dharani of the 108 Names of Jambhala? This is a sutra practice and does not require empowerment or oral transmission. It can be found for free on-line. If you say it every day with faith and devotion and for the sake of all sentient beings covered by the sky, it will, slowly, slowly, show its results. Other "wealth" dharanis and sutras include the Ganapati dharani and heart sutra, Manibhadra's dharani, and Vasudhara's dharani. All can be found for free on-line.

Good luck & best wishes.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Seeking Wisdom »

yes, it is meant to be done after having completed ngondro
I see, thank you for your response. So basically, an empowerment for Orgyen Khandro Norlha is being offered in a pretty public setting (in a local bookstore). What would be the reasoning behind doing this, if this is a practice that is meant to be accomplished in retreat for those that are ready to move to three roots?

I'm pretty new to TB, and am still (contemplating) doing ngondro. What is a gun-khyer?
Seeking Wisdom
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Seeking Wisdom »

Also, can you elaborate a little on the "full potential results" and "extraordinary faith." I feel I may have that extraordinary faith, especially in Guru Rinpoche. (Though I suppose that may be a bit like Marpa bowing to the Yidam instead of Naropa... :shrug: )

Thanks again!
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by dzogchungpa »

FYI, Lama Sonam of Pema Osel Ling will be giving this empowerment in San Rafael this Saturday,
see: http://www.vajrayana.org/events/72/.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Adamantine
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Adamantine »

I'd say if you have the chance to receive the empowerment, it's a profound blessing to receive any empowerment into a cycle of Guru Rinpoche, how much more so one from such a profound and
fresh treasure lineage like the Dudjom Tersar. I'm sure there will
be further explanation and instruction given at the time of empowerment which should clarify most if not all of your questions. If you haven't received any mahayoga empowerment yet in this life, and aspire to practice it.. then why hesitate?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Grigoris
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Grigoris »

pemachophel wrote:Just getting the empowerment is not necessarily going to improve your finances.
Ha! That's an understatement! Things may get much worse initially, before (if) they get better. The practice works by rapidly ripening past karmic debt. You gotta pay back the loan before the bank will give you any money! That is why normally you need to do ngondro: to build some merit (mandala) and purify some karma (Vajrasattva) before engaging in the practice.

When I was doing the practice (I was doing it at the same time as Vajrasattva accumulations) and things were going (completely) bezerk, my lama made me stop both practices and focus on mandala for a while, before continuing. Things are currently infinitely better for me.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Soma999 »

Hello,

You may be interested in these kind of practice :
http://www.lamayeshe.com/sites/default/ ... 28_pdf.pdf

It can be done without empowerment.

To help you with your situation, i would suggest you the book "creating money" by Sanaya Roman and Duane Packer. It's filled with wisdom, and very practical.

It's important to know how things work, cause otherwise, you may create something with one hand (your practice) and destroy it during the day (by not knowing how one transform his/her reality).

Also karma is like a dept. Purification and mandala offering may help you. Purification is also removal of negativity, fear, anger, and dissolution of egocentrism, that leads to more openess and love. Merit is a field of positivity generated by the act of letting love grow in one's life. One sincere act to help, out of pure intention, can purify mountain of negativity. Whatever you wish for yourself, wish it for everyone. Rejoice for any success one may have, and feed yourself with the vibration of gratitude for whatever you have and for what others have. It's very powerful.

Also, don't want "too much". It "crispate" energy. Try to "will without violence". Or "let go". That is being like water, flexible. It comes, cool, it's not there yet, cool. And one way to achieve such an attitude is to substitude the thought "what can i get with that" with the thought "what can i bring, contribute with what i ask". If you look for a job, focus more on what you bring etc... The more you focus on the intention of "giving", the more you attract.
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Karinos
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Karinos »

guys please remember we are Buddhists, not exotic Hindu. We don't practice for money or personal benefit, but to achieve contentment state of our own mind and to wish all sentience being to have all what is needed to be content and so that content mind can turn into Dharma.
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by pemachophel »

"So basically, an empowerment for Orgyen Khandro Norlha is being offered in a pretty public setting (in a local bookstore). What would be the reasoning behind doing this [?]"

IMO, to create tendrel or an auspicious connection between the attendees and A) the Buddhadharma in general, and B) the Dudjom Tersar in particular.

Knowing people are interested in money and wealth, it's a good hook.

That being said, some Lamas feel that giving such public empowerments to all-comers is not such a good thing -- not for the unprepared recipients who then don't keep samaya, not for the Lamas who give such empowerments to those who then don't keep samaya, and not for the great Secret Mantrayana itself -- its power, blessings, and efficacy. This is a controversial topic within modern Tibetan Buddhism. No easy answer, but, personally, the older I get, the more I question this practice. Sometimes it's almost as if Tibetan Buddhism is a business and empowerments are the product, with Lamas coming to the West mainly to raise money for their monasteries back home.

Little story: When my Teacher, Sonam Kazi, invited H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche to come to the U.S. for the first time in 1972, He asked His Holiness to give the Longchen Nyingthig Three Roots empowerments. (These were the first empowerments given by His Holiness in the U.S.) The empowerment was held in a private home in rural New Jersey and only Mr. Kazi's personal students were invited. A number of other American Buddhists, some quite famous, got wind of this and wanted to come, but Mr. Kazi said no. Some of these people who were turned away then bad-mouthed Mr. Kazi for being uncompassionate. However, Mr. Kazi understood the gravity of the commitment of Vajrayana empowerment and wanted to make as sure as possible that everyone attending this historical and momentous occasion was a sincere practitioner with pure samaya. In Vajrayana, we believe that, sometimes, groups of practitioners who are Vajra brothers and sisters (i.e., have received empowerment together) and who keep their samayas will Realize in one group, even achieving the Rainbow body en masse or one after the other like popcorn popping. Kye ma! Kye hu! These days the end justifies the means and the five degenerations of the Kaliyuga get worse and worse.

Sorry if this is too much information.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by fckw »

Karinos wrote:guys please remember we are Buddhists, not exotic Hindu. We don't practice for money or personal benefit
That's really derogatory.
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Grigoris »

pemachophel wrote:Sometimes it's almost as if Tibetan Buddhism is a business and empowerments are the product, with Lamas coming to the West mainly to raise money for their monasteries back home.
You reckon it would be better for them to raise it to feed their drug-fueled hedonistic self-centered lifestyles? Like politicians and rock stars, for example?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by dzogchungpa »

Karinos wrote:... we are Buddhists ... We don't practice for money or personal benefit ...
Really? That's news to me. :smile:

Perhaps you mean we don't, or at least shouldn't, practice ONLY for money or personal benefit.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by climb-up »

Karinos wrote:guys please remember we are Buddhists, not exotic Hindu. We don't practice for money or personal benefit
Ummmm,
Then why are there so many Buddhists practices for money and personal benefit? and why do tantric sadhana's work toward both the supreme and relative siddhis?
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Adamantine
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Adamantine »

To Pema Chopel: actually I'll provide another view to your account since yours sways far to one side.

While it is commendable hearing of your teacher Sonam Kazi's
approach at that time and place, it's also good to recall that
H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche gave empowerments widely and publicly
throughout the U.S.A and Europe for many years. This along with
his abundant teachings in the West were part of his prophesied activity here. He made empowerments much more accessible and open then Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche for example. I believe there was something happening in his case that is very much related to temdrel, signs or omens and there were some empowerments he was scheduled
to give at certain times and places, at least one I know for sure being a Troma empowerment that he canceled last minute. Apparently the signs warned him against it.

I recall being present with another modern Terton, Kusum Lingpa, right before an empowerment was meant to start and
in the height of the anti-war Bush era he launched into a political diatribe against anti-war protestors and in support of Bush and the war. Naturally, a young couple who had come and took it all at face value were rubbed the wrong way and left. Those that knew him and his erratic Wisdom methods stayed. After the couple left—right after—he said, "Ok, now we can start". That was his unique style.

Now one view is that most people who show up at the right time and place, who have the interest, are karmically ripe. And the skillful methods of the Vajra master will come into play to weed out anyone who may not be so.

Also, there are Lamas in the Dudjom Tersar who will guide you through pith instruction and not formula, who will encourage some to begin Mahayoga practices in tandem with ngondro, not
only once you've completed it. There's a saying in Tibetan, "every Lama has their own Dharma"... something to keep in mind.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Virgo »

Adamantine wrote:To Pema Chopel: actually I'll provide another view to your account since yours sways far to one side.

While it is commendable hearing of your teacher Sonam Kazi's
approach at that time and place, it's also good to recall that
H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche gave empowerments widely and publicly
throughout the U.S.A and Europe for many years. This along with
his abundant teachings in the West were part of his prophesied activity here. He made empowerments much more accessible and open then Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche for example. I believe there was something happening in his case that is very much related to temdrel, signs or omens and there were some empowerments he was scheduled
to give at certain times and places, at least one I know for sure being a Troma empowerment that he canceled last minute. Apparently the signs warned him against it.

I recall being present with another modern Terton, Kusum Lingpa, right before an empowerment was meant to start and
in the height of the anti-war Bush era he launched into a political diatribe against anti-war protestors and in support of Bush and the war. Naturally, a young couple who had come and took it all at face value were rubbed the wrong way and left. Those that knew him and his erratic Wisdom methods stayed. After the couple left—right after—he said, "Ok, now we can start". That was his unique style.

Now one view is that most people who show up at the right time and place, who have the interest, are karmically ripe. And the skillful methods of the Vajra master will come into play to weed out anyone who may not be so.

Also, there are Lamas in the Dudjom Tersar who will guide you through pith instruction and not formula, who will encourage some to begin Mahayoga practices in tandem with ngondro, not
only once you've completed it. There's a saying in Tibetan, "every Lama has their own Dharma"... something to keep in mind.
Good post. :thumbsup:

Kevin
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Adamantine
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Adamantine »

Grigoris wrote:
pemachophel wrote:Sometimes it's almost as if Tibetan Buddhism is a business and empowerments are the product, with Lamas coming to the West mainly to raise money for their monasteries back home.
You reckon it would be better for them to raise it to feed their drug-fueled hedonistic self-centered lifestyles? Like politicians and rock stars, for example?
Also, most wangs I'm aware of either ask a modest amount
or merely suggest a donation. Generally there are a number of expenses just putting on an event: the travel costs of the Lama if it's not at their own main center, especially if they're visiting from abroad, potentially the cost of renting a space, (if not then costs of operating a center are considerable) all the substances needed for a proper wang and the accompanying Tsok puja (particularly in Nyingma) related costs of the attendants and chopen/s who help with all the ritual elements and the cost
of meals for all, etc. Added together, this is not nothing! Add to that the fact that most Westerners seem to not understand these costs, are upset about being asked to contribute anything (I.e. many who believe these things should be offered freely like they don't have any embedded expenses) and that many are stingy even giving a minimal amount when a donation is just suggested, and I think it's a wild idea to
imagine any Lamas are getting rich or supporting monasteries through giving empowerments.

Remember that traditionally (and still often in Asia) sponsors with the means who understand the great merit involved would vie for the opportunity to sponsor all of the costs of an empowerment or series of them. As a result, the empowerments I've attended there have not only been free of charge, and had free meals provided for all: but additionally offerings were given out in the instance that group prayers or puja were done as part of the event. No one was turned away from these wangs either, they were very open. However we don't have the culture of wealthy people understanding these things for the most part here... or they'd rather contribute to a temple or stupa project that has a tangible reference point into the future. (Not criticizing that just pointing out a tendency).
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by pemachophel »

As I said, this issue is controversial.
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Seeking Wisdom »

Sorry if this is too much information.
There really is no such thing as TMI with a beginner such as myself. I really appreciate having multiple viewpoints to consider. Particularly with the consequences so grave. So then, would the root and secondary tantric vows, as described on this website (https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... ntric-vows) be applicable to such an empowerment?
Generally there are a number of expenses just putting on an event
I can totally understand this, especially given that where I am in Northern California, rent is exorbitant. I can't even afford a one-bedroom out here, save in the most undesirable of neighborhoods. And I don't imagine any of the lamas I've ever encountered have dozens of Rolls Royces like Rajneesh did. Not that that would necessarily be a bad thing, given the awesome work they do.
We don't practice for money or personal benefit, but to achieve contentment state of our own mind and to wish all sentience being to have all what is needed to be content and so that content mind can turn into Dharma.
Apologies, if my intention was not clear in my original posting. I'm mostly interested in being able to afford the teachings and practice necessary to enact the aims and goals of bodhichitta. I suppose a sense of security wouldn't hurt either. Were my current patrons to suddenly disappear (i.e., the 'rents) I'd have no choice but to be a wandering yogi. Much of my financial problem comes from the fact that it is difficult for me to get a job, given my poor work history and some foolish decisions I made earlier in my life. I suppose the fact that the economy still hasn't recovered plays a part as well, but that is beyond my control. I'm not looking to use tantric means and methods to become stinkin' rich, I'm just open to all possible remedies to my inability to afford teachings/retreats.

Good discussion, all. I much appreciate the insight provided!
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Re: Dudjom Dzambala Practice

Post by Seeking Wisdom »

As I said, this issue is controversial.
I've yet to find any issue at all that isn't within Buddhism. Doubly so for TB in the Kali Yuga. :smile:
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