nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

yagmort
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:18 pm

nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

i don't know if that is a valid question to ask, but in case it is - is it possible to have a list of lineages/cycles and what steps a student normally progress through on the path after completing ngöndro?

i can not seems to find a source with sctructures of most major cycles which are alive nowadays outlined. there seems to be so many of them.. Göngpa Zangthal, Konchok Chidu, Namchö, all sorts of Nyingtigs, etc.. it is disorienting. i need help navigating here)

some cycles are very short/condensed, like Künzang Thugtig, which only has ngöndro, zhitro as generation stage and dzogchen as completion stage.
i was also told that Chetsün Nyingtig is a very condensed cycle as well, but i don't know what they do after ngöndro?

some other cycles look rather lenghty, like Düdjom Troma cycle or Yangti Nagpo..

to give an example of what i am looking for, here is the example for Rigdzin Sögdrup cycle practice structure:
-the common outer and inner preliminaries
-the development stage of Mahayoga
-the activities of approach and accomplishment (kyerim and dzogrim) of the Three Roots (Lama, Yidam and Khandro)
-the five supplementary yoga cycles of the Anuyoga Dzogrim, which functions through the tsalung and tigle
-the Khorde Rushen Dzogchen Atiyoga cycle of practice
-the primordial Trekchö
-the spontaneously formed Tögal and Osal practices from the Three Series of Dzogchen.

one more example is curriculum for Yangti Nagpo cycle posted at their official site

another bit of info shared with me is Gangten Tulku has allowed students to progress right to the dzogchen after finishing ngöndro, but then again, i don't know what are the steps in Peling tradition?
so one more question i would also like to clarify - is dzogchen section stays the same for all lineages with khorde rushen/semdzin/tregcho/tögel?

while i am at that: what can be said without breaking samayas about Tsasum Ösel Nyingtig and Chime Phagma Nyingtig? are these complete cycles?

i know there are plenty of knowledgeable folks on this site. so, to sum it up, if you know curriculums for a particular lineage and also lineage holders who has been authorised to teach and transmit a lineage, please share your knowledge.
Malcolm
Posts: 35524
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:47 am
some cycles are very short/condensed, like Künzang Thugtig, which only has ngöndro, zhitro as generation stage and dzogchen as completion stage.
i was also told that Chetsün Nyingtig is a very condensed cycle as well, but i don't know what they do after ngöndro?
Rushen, trekcho, thogal
so one more question i would also like to clarify - is dzogchen section stays the same for all lineages with khorde rushen/semdzin/tregcho/tögel?
Yes, pretty much.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
Passing By
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:49 pm

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Passing By »

yagmort wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:47 am
some other cycles look rather lenghty, like Düdjom Troma cycle
Dudjom Troma looks lengthy but is actually very condensed and essential.

Sure, the medium and long sadhanas are massive and you can insert all sorts of other prayers in between, but path-wise, from the very start you are already doing anu-ati kyerim and chod, both with the aim of introducing and stabilizing trekchod, then once you accomplish that it's straight to thogal. Also, the daily practices like the ngondro and 4 Feasts are not that long actually.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 5286
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I’m curious, why are they referred to as cycles of teachings?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
Malcolm
Posts: 35524
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:47 pm I’m curious, why are they referred to as cycles of teachings?
Cycle is a translation of skor, which means cycle and section.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 5286
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:55 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:47 pm I’m curious, why are they referred to as cycles of teachings?
Cycle is a translation of skor, which means cycle and section.
I mean, is it like a set of teachings thats repeated every three years or so? What is getting cycled?

Also is ‘skor’ related to the word (pronounced kor wa) as in circumambulating a stupa?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
GrapeLover
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:55 am

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by GrapeLover »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:16 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:55 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:47 pm I’m curious, why are they referred to as cycles of teachings?
Cycle is a translation of skor, which means cycle and section.
I mean, is it like a set of teachings thats repeated every three years or so? What is getting cycled?
I take it in the spirit of the Oxford dictionary definition “a complete set or series” with the example sentence “the painting is one of a cycle of seven”. Reminds me of the Ulster Cycle of mythological texts
User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 5166
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by conebeckham »

GrapeLover wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:28 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:16 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:55 pm

Cycle is a translation of skor, which means cycle and section.
I mean, is it like a set of teachings thats repeated every three years or so? What is getting cycled?
I take it in the spirit of the Oxford dictionary definition “a complete set or series” with the example sentence “the painting is one of a cycle of seven”. Reminds me of the Ulster Cycle of mythological texts
Yes, it usually means a group of related practices and instructions. It can mean merely a group of related practices-like Sangtik KhorSum, for example, which is really three sadhanas for three related deity practices-- though, for Dzogchen per se, usually, it means a group of practices that include preliminaries through various creation and completion stages, including TrekCho and Togal as the apex.

For example, Longchen Nyingthik has many, many texts and many separate sadhanas. Kunzang Thugtik contains basically one ShiTro sadhana, plus a ngondro and a protector supplication/torma offering, and the advanced Dzogchen completion stage practices of Trekcho and Togal.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
yagmort
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

thanks for chiming in, every one.


Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:06 pm Rushen, trekcho, thogal
Malcolm, my apologies for being a dimwit, but heres your quote:
Malcolm wrote:...The Chetsun Nyingthig's actual Dzogchen instructions are included only in a very short section at the very end of the root text. The rest of it is devoted to discussing the empowerment, the ngondro practice, the sadhana of Chetsun, and so on...
...
...that in that system, when you have finished the two stages connected with the practice of Chetsun, then you move on to actual Dzogchen preliminaries and the main practice of Dzogchen. The main emphasis of the Chetsun Nyingthig is the Guru Yoga of Vimalamitra...
and also
Malcolm wrote:...Chetsun Nyinthig sadhana is not Dzogchen, it's anuyoga, specifically, employing devotion to the guru as the path...

so it looks like in Chetsün Nyingtig they don't proceed to the dzogchen proper right after ngöndro.
am i getting something incorrectly here?
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:06 pmYes, pretty much
thanks for addressing that. was bugging me for quite some time.




Passing By wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:38 pm Dudjom Troma looks lengthy but is actually very condensed and essential.

Sure, the medium and long sadhanas are massive and you can insert all sorts of other prayers in between, but path-wise, from the very start you are already doing anu-ati kyerim and chod, both with the aim of introducing and stabilizing trekchod, then once you accomplish that it's straight to thogal. Also, the daily practices like the ngondro and 4 Feasts are not that long actually.
thanks for sharing Passing By, very interesting!
well, if memory serves i've been told first you do
-sater ngöndro,
-then Tröma specific ngöndro,
-then you get Tröma wang and start training feasts and phowa,
-then follows Tröma retreat,
-after that you do actual Chö visiting 108 cemeteries and/or power places,
-then comes dzogchen according to Neluk Rangjung and "Blood of the hundred thousands dakini's hearts" from Saraha Nyingtig.

so when i say "lenghty" i mostly mean rather time consuming to cover all stages. of course i am not making any definitive assertions as i know nothing but some crumbles of info regarding Düdjom Tröma, but it does look quite lenghty to me, for example, visiting 108 cemeteries alone can be quite an undertaking.

-can anyone please describe Gongpa Zangthal stages?
Passing By
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:49 pm

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Passing By »

yagmort wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:26 am

thanks for sharing Passing By, very interesting!
well, if memory serves i've been told first you do
-sater ngöndro,
-then Tröma specific ngöndro,
-then you get Tröma wang and start training feasts and phowa,
-then follows Tröma retreat,
-after that you do actual Chö visiting 108 cemeteries and/or power places,
-then comes dzogchen according to Neluk Rangjung and "Blood of the hundred thousands dakini's hearts" from Saraha Nyingtig.

so when i say "lenghty" i mostly mean rather time consuming to cover all stages. of course i am not making any definitive assertions as i know nothing but some crumbles of info regarding Düdjom Tröma, but it does look quite lenghty to me, for example, visiting 108 cemeteries alone can be quite an undertaking.
It depends which Dudjom lama you are following. Many start off with Troma ngondro and 4 Feasts off the bat. And of course, if you are present when someone like Dudjom Yangsi is publicly giving the wang then obviously you would have started off with the wang. So it really depends

And no, Dzogchen is there right from the very start. The ngondro is saturated with Ati view. What is specifically later is thogal (standard for most Nyingma teachers anyway). Then again, Neluk Rangjung and Heart Blood of a Hundred Thousand Dakinis are thogal texts. But Atiyoga itself is there from the beginning. That's also what I mean when I say condensed. You aren't going to be doing purely outer level practices for ages like what lamas in some other cycles would have you do and will get nature of mind instructions quite frequently. Especially with the way the sadhanas are written.

As for time consuming to cover all stages.....well, these practices are a "don't worry just do it regularly and you'll get it eventually" thing anyway. But if you want to go full in dedicated retreats that's fine also of course. Nevertheless, aside from thogal which is an end-goal thing, each of the practices are complete as a path. They are all aimed at discovering and supporting the view of Ati.
yagmort
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

thank you for the clarfication Passing By
Malcolm
Posts: 35524
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:26 am
so it looks like in Chetsün Nyingtig they don't proceed to the dzogchen proper right after ngöndro.
am i getting something incorrectly here?
Having completed the ngondro, one continues with rushen, trekcho, and thogal
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
yagmort
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:17 pm Having completed the ngondro, one continues with rushen, trekcho, and thogal
does that mean anuyoga/2 stages sadhana of Chetsun is a part of ngöndro in this cycle?
Malcolm
Posts: 35524
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:17 pm Having completed the ngondro, one continues with rushen, trekcho, and thogal
does that mean anuyoga/2 stages sadhana of Chetsun is a part of ngöndro in this cycle?
Generally, one practices the refuge/bodhicitta, vajrasattva, mandala offerings, and guru yoga; then one proceeds to rushan, etc. Some people also practice the Simhesvara self-generation in the elaborate form with vajra recitation, etc. but mainly people move on to rushen, etc.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
yagmort
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:19 pm Generally, one practices the refuge/bodhicitta, vajrasattva, mandala offerings, and guru yoga; then one proceeds to rushan, etc. Some people also practice the Simhesvara self-generation in the elaborate form with vajra recitation, etc. but mainly people move on to rushen, etc.
thanks, very interesting Malcolm. could you please elaborate on that moment? is it only certain teachers' approach, or it is common that sadhana of Chetsun is omitted? what deciding factors are at play here?
Malcolm
Posts: 35524
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:46 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:19 pm Generally, one practices the refuge/bodhicitta, vajrasattva, mandala offerings, and guru yoga; then one proceeds to rushan, etc. Some people also practice the Simhesvara self-generation in the elaborate form with vajra recitation, etc. but mainly people move on to rushen, etc.
thanks, very interesting Malcolm. could you please elaborate on that moment? is it only certain teachers' approach, or it is common that sadhana of Chetsun is omitted? what deciding factors are at play here?
It’s common. But really, at this point you should aspire to receive these teachings from someone and see for yourself.
"Conceptuality is great ignorance,
causing one to fall into the ocean of samsāra."
—Māyājālamahātantra
Passing By
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:49 pm

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:59 am
yagmort wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:46 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:19 pm Generally, one practices the refuge/bodhicitta, vajrasattva, mandala offerings, and guru yoga; then one proceeds to rushan, etc. Some people also practice the Simhesvara self-generation in the elaborate form with vajra recitation, etc. but mainly people move on to rushen, etc.
thanks, very interesting Malcolm. could you please elaborate on that moment? is it only certain teachers' approach, or it is common that sadhana of Chetsun is omitted? what deciding factors are at play here?
It’s common. But really, at this point you should aspire to receive these teachings from someone and see for yourself.

Who frequently or commonly gives Chetsun Nyingthik? I know Khenchen Namdrol did, but he isn't exactly accessible outside Nepal. Lama Sonam gave the lung last year but I'm not sure if he teaches frequently from it
yagmort
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:59 am But really, at this point you should aspire to receive these teachings from someone and see for yourself.
i do. but nyingma with its cycles is a new thing to me. so first i'm trying to get a basic understanding of what i am getting into before signing up for a serious commitments. i don't wanna drop a practice when/if i will discover i don't have much affinity with its path, just because i didn't spend any efforts to understand it beforehand.
thanks for your clarifications, it helps a lot.
yagmort
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by yagmort »

Passing By wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:11 am
Who frequently or commonly gives Chetsun Nyingthik? I know Khenchen Namdrol did, but he isn't exactly accessible outside Nepal. Lama Sonam gave the lung last year but I'm not sure if he teaches frequently from it
Shechen Rabjam gave massive wang January 2020 in Siliguri, Chetsün Nyingtig included.

but also my concern what happens after wang? who will actually guide you through all the stages? i assume high lamas don't have time for that.
rai
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:58 pm

Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.

Post by rai »

so some students have received Dzogchen teachings without following any particular cycle.

what would be benefits of progressing through the path within the particular cycle of teachings? does a cycle carry some particular blessings that make things move smoother towards liberation etc. ?
Post Reply

Return to “Nyingma”