Dzogchen, Buddhism and culture

[username]

ChNNR says occasionally people ask why I repeat some things and it is because there is new people and some of my students don't understand even simple things and keep asking or emailing repeatedly. He is one of the founding academician founders of roots of Tibetan Culture to older times in the western Zhang Zhung area. In a University lecture where he was honored by some of the greatest Tibetologists he said when I was introducing those older roots of Tibetan culture all those years ago, many including some of you elders were laughing at me for a long time, but now what I said is established as true and all of you agree too, so who is laughing now? And he burst into laughter. Often as a key figure in modern Tibetan culture, he expresses his concern after his visits to Tibet on how Tibetan language and culture is disappearing fast as Tibet is overrun by a mjority of Chinese and even Tibetan children are forced to learn only Chinese at school and have trouble understanding him. He uses the metaphor of cancer and the word mortal danger. This concern has been shared by westerners for several decades since the cultural revolution that destroyed so much of Tibet and now the overwhelming of Tibetans by Chinese immigrants. This which even non Buddhist westerners are aware of is the danger of disappearance of Tibetan culture and language as he says the the elders will die and it can be lost within a generation or two easily and the exile community is no substitute for the real living thing inside.

Now first of all if you like to go off-topic then open a new thread on the plus and minuses of Tibetan vs. Western culture in the lounge or wherever. Secondly this shows how a small minority do not even understand basic things ChNNR says like the need to save the Tibetan culture from disappearance that even average people on the street might be aware of as an issue, nevermind his more advanced teachings they often misrepresent here. So when he says I want to save my culture from disappearance and as we see in this thread people say I have and want to save my culture too(!), go ahead. But you will be wasting the few remaining years of precious human life that is very rare to get again in the universe. And let me assure you the French language is alive and spoken and kept vibrant and evolving by many millions in a free country preserving it's culture in freodom as well as Le Figaro, etc. or Super Bowl, Las Vegas and the English language etc. are not in imminenet mortal danger of becoming a minority in exile dead culture. So lets not go off-topic and ruin each other weekends with a huge diversion instead of "Institutional Buddhism" due to the usual inability to understand even the basic things ChNNR talks about.

Have a good weekend.

[krodha]

"Samsara is the tendency to find fault with others". Naropa

"In the sky, there is no distinction of east and west; people create distinctions out of their own minds and then believe them to be true".
Buddha

"Equanimity means feeling neither hatred for enemies nor attachment to loved ones, but instead, feeling love and compassion for all beings equally".

While you, yourself, are finding fault with others for finding fault with others.

I see that is about the dog tail. Please it is exactly that what keeps it going on: the object-subject confusion which cannot maintain nondual contemplation. Me and you separation.

Sorry dear, no wrong "you". It is only my mistake.

I have a hard time understanding what you are saying most of the time, but as far as this thread goes, I was merely calling bullsh*t on jnanasutra for exhibiting the same behavior he was condemning, and now you're pretending to be above judgement while judging others for their judgements. These are the subtle games the mind plays. It subconsciously projects itself. I never claimed to be perfect, but I am aware of my projections and am fully conscious of my mudslinging.

[Karma Dorje]

ChNNR says occasionally people ask why I repeat some things and it is because there is new people and some of my students don't understand even simple things and keep asking or emailing repeatedly. He is one of the founding academician founders of roots of Tibetan Culture to older times in the western Zhang Zhung area. In a University lecture where he was honored by some of the greatest Tibetologists he said when I was introducing those older roots of Tibetan culture all those years ago, many including some of you elders were laughing at me for a long time, but now what I said is established as true and all of you agree too, so who is laughing now? And he burst into laughter. Often as a key figure in modern Tibetan culture, he expresses his concern after his visits to Tibet on how Tibetan language and culture is disappearing fast as Tibet is overrun by a mjority of Chinese and even Tibetan children are forced to learn only Chinese at school and have trouble understanding him. He uses the metaphor of cancer and the word mortal danger. This concern has been shared by westerners for several decades since the cultural revolution that destroyed so much of Tibet and now the overwhelming of Tibetans by Chinese immigrants. This which even non Buddhist westerners are aware of is the danger of disappearance of Tibetan culture and language as he says the the elders will die and it can be lost within a generation or two easily and the exile community is no substitute for the real living thing inside.

Now first of all if you like to go off-topic then open a new thread on the plus and minuses of Tibetan vs. Western culture in the lounge or wherever. Secondly this shows how a small minority do not even understand basic things ChNNR says like the need to save the Tibetan culture from disappearance that even average people on the street might be aware of as an issue, nevermind his more advanced teachings they often misrepresent here. So when he says I want to save my culture from disappearance and as we see in this thread people say I have and want to save my culture too(!), go ahead. But you will be wasting the few remaining years of precious human life that is very rare to get again in the universe. And let me assure you the French language is alive and spoken and kept vibrant and evolving by many millions in a free country preserving it's culture in freodom as well as Le Figaro, etc. or Super Bowl, Las Vegas and the English language etc. are not in imminenet mortal danger of becoming a minority in exile dead culture. So lets not go off-topic and ruin each other weekends with a huge diversion instead of "Institutional Buddhism" due to the usual inability to understand even the basic things ChNNR talks about.

Have a good weekend.

This is entirely *on-topic*. The point of this all should be painfully obvious to anyone who stops to consider that Shakyamuni didn't teach "Tibetan Buddhism". Each culture that the dharma comes to makes it its own. We need to do this here as well, not merely ape the cultural traits of others. Out of compassion we should be looking for ways to make dharma more accessible, more understandable and more immediate. The people I have met who condemn our culture the most are generally those that were never very successful or accepted within it. We aren't talking about "saving Western culture". We are talking about keeping dharma and the institutions that promote it relevant to the modern condition.

[username]

ChNNR said today using other cultures/religions as secondary support material is OK but not as the main (dominant) point of view and that mixing up things into a(n ecclectic) mix is like the famous "Milanese Soup" where you throw in whatever ideology into the pot which he said is not his teaching at all. So obviously this thread is becoming the same chaotic state as I do not think his quote "I want to save my culture" as justified earlier here can be used as a correct analogy for the need to save French/Amercian culture which are not in imminent danger like Tibet's AFAIK. This is another false analogy.

But hey, don't listen to me, knock yourself out.
As they say "Bon weekend"

[muni]

[quote="asunthatneversets"][
Sorry, adding concepts brings no clarity in misunderstanding.

Dzogchen is master-student.

[Karma Dorje]

ChNNR said today using other cultures/religions as secondary support material is OK but not as the main (dominant) point of view and that mixing up things into a(n ecclectic) mix is like the famous "Milanese Soup" where you throw in whatever ideology into the pot which he said is not his teaching at all. So obviously this thread is becoming the same chaotic state as I do not think his quote "I want to save my culture" as justified earlier here can be used as a correct analogy for the need to save French/Amercian culture which are not in imminent danger like Tibet's AFAIK. This is another false analogy.

But hey, don't listen to me, knock yourself out.
As they say "Bon weekend"

Who suggested mixing stuff up? Are you being purposefully obtuse? I specifically said that this is *not* about saving Western culture but about the inevitable changes that will come when "Tibetan" Buddhism is fully instantiated here. I didn't once bring up what ChNNR said about his culture. I wish him well in the endeavor.

Instead of concern trolling, perhaps you could stop putting words in the mouths of others and address what was actually said.

[username]

Someone imagines I was talking to him.

Dzogchen is master-student.

Put most Excellently

[greentreee]

ChNNR said today using other cultures/religions as secondary support material is OK but not as the main (dominant) point of view and that mixing up things into a(n ecclectic) mix is like the famous "Milanese Soup" where you throw in whatever ideology into the pot which he said is not his teaching at all. So obviously this thread is becoming the same chaotic state as I do not think his quote "I want to save my culture" as justified earlier here can be used as a correct analogy for the need to save French/Amercian culture which are not in imminent danger like Tibet's AFAIK. This is another false analogy.

But hey, don't listen to me, knock yourself out.
As they say "Bon weekend"

Who suggested mixing stuff up? Are you being purposefully obtuse? I specifically said that this is *not* about saving Western culture but about the inevitable changes that will come when "Tibetan" Buddhism is fully instantiated here. I didn't once bring up what ChNNR said about his culture. I wish him well in the endeavor.

Instead of concern trolling, perhaps you could stop putting words in the mouths of others and address what was actually said.

without an attempt to pour gasoline on this. i can understand peoples reservations about this. again, as a secondary example, since i am not tibetan, or have been to tibet. my points were exactly about "saving" culture, two primary examples are, and one i've already emphasized is the native north american one, another one is the Metis example, which IS a french/native cross over that was threatened from English colonization. Both of those two culture have been, and are currently working towards "saving" their cultures, that is NO different than saving Tibetan culture and perhaps, all cultures who are dealing with having to try to "keep their cultural roots" can learn from the others that are having trouble.

to analogize "american/french" limits the reality. one can use examples of other aspects of culture, like the fishing cultures that have been devastated by past oil spills and leaks into the waters. entire communities had to move and people lively-hoods were lost. or what about the plight of the polar bear? who's responsible for that? is it oil companies or those that use those resources or both? again, that can be debated, i'm just offering examples.

what's important is that people don't get over aggressive in their attempts! history has proven to be a good indicator of what happens when people hold onto views so strongly. *in the 2nd edit* which, for all intense and purposes can be considered a form of pride, right?

anyways.

take care
breath well

*first edit - i think i'll grab a kingfisher from the refridgerator!

[Karma Dorje]

Someone imagines I was talking to him.

You addressed the whole thread as being chaotic.

Sonam's quote from much earlier in the conversation is being taken far out of context. He is simply saying that ChNNR wants to preserve his own culture in much the same way as anyone born in a culture wants to preserve what is good within theirs. At no point did anyone suggest mixing things up. In reviewing the thread I don't see a single person suggesting that we do so.

[Sönam]

ChNNR said today using other cultures/religions as secondary support material is OK but not as the main (dominant) point of view and that mixing up things into a(n ecclectic) mix is like the famous "Milanese Soup" where you throw in whatever ideology into the pot which he said is not his teaching at all. So obviously this thread is becoming the same chaotic state as I do not think his quote "I want to save my culture" as justified earlier here can be used as a correct analogy for the need to save French/Amercian culture which are not in imminent danger like Tibet's AFAIK. This is another false analogy.

But hey, don't listen to me, knock yourself out.
As they say "Bon weekend"

You miss the point. This question appears in the context of this thread, someone mades a link between ChNN and his Tibetan culture to prove the importance of the absolute relation between Buddhism and Dzogchen ... there started the discussion.
Everyone here agrees that Tibet, his people, his language his culture is in great danger ... And I'm shure many of us ACT to preserve it.

Sönam

[krodha]

(Edit: I guess this whole back and forth between muni and I has been a misunderstanding, I unfortunately have a difficult time understanding her. We had been agreeing and I misinterpreted it as something else... so... I have apologized and nevermind all of this.... carry on you institutional buddhism yea-sayers and naysayers!)

Sorry, adding concepts brings no clarity in misunderstanding.

For some, a concept or an idea may be exactly the right thing they need to push them into the right view. Some may have spent years meditating wrong, or years misunderstanding the right view to maintain. And then upon hearing something, or reading something they may suddenly gain a flash of genuine insight which corrects their view. Not to label it a phase; but I too spent some time denying concepts and ideas... "this and that is just a concept", "this and that is just an idea", I can remember my mentor just laughing at me, he didn't push me because he knew it was just a phase, and he said all he could do was hope that it passed quickly. It's called clinging to the absolute.

"All discursive thoughts are emptiness,
and the observer of emptiness is discursive thought.
Emptiness does not destroy discursive thought,
and discursive thought does not obstruct emptiness."
- Jamyang Dorje

"To cling to a concrete reality is to be as dumb as an ox;
but clinging to emptines is even dumber."
- Saraha

"When I began, mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers; when I penetrated deeply, mountains were no longer mountains and rivers were no longer rivers; and when I had finished, mountains were again mountains and rivers again rivers."
- Old Zen Proverb

"When an ordinary person realizes it,
she is a sage.
When a sage realizes it,
he is an ordinary person."

Dzogchen is master-student.

And a master-student knows no limitations.

[username]

ChNNR said today using other cultures/religions as secondary support material is OK but not as the main (dominant) point of view and that mixing up things into a(n ecclectic) mix is like the famous "Milanese Soup" where you throw in whatever ideology into the pot which he said is not his teaching at all. So obviously this thread is becoming the same chaotic state as I do not think his quote "I want to save my culture" as justified earlier here can be used as a correct analogy for the need to save French/Amercian culture which are not in imminent danger like Tibet's AFAIK. This is another false analogy.

But hey, don't listen to me, knock yourself out.
As they say "Bon weekend"

You miss the point. This question appears in the context of this thread, someone mades a link between ChNN and his Tibetan culture to prove the importance of the absolute relation between Buddhism and Dzogchen ... there started the discussion.
Everyone here agrees that Tibet, his people, his language his culture is in great danger ... And I'm shure many of us ACT to preserve it.

Sönam

We should all honor and preserve the non-negative aspects of our cultures which are alive and kicking AFAIK but in the post before all this that you quoted, Rinpoche is talking about something completely different, saving an endangered culture from the brink of extinction which BTW is significant not only to this world system but many more hence utterly missing his point and mixing it up with the category of your culture making the discussion eclectic and chaotic but that is just my opinion so carry on as you wish.

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 51#p105951" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All the best Sonam.

[Dronma]

ChNNR says occasionally people ask why I repeat some things and it is because there is new people and some of my students don't understand even simple things and keep asking or emailing repeatedly. He is one of the founding academician founders of roots of Tibetan Culture to older times in the western Zhang Zhung area. In a University lecture where he was honored by some of the greatest Tibetologists he said when I was introducing those older roots of Tibetan culture all those years ago, many including some of you elders were laughing at me for a long time, but now what I said is established as true and all of you agree too, so who is laughing now? And he burst into laughter. Often as a key figure in modern Tibetan culture, he expresses his concern after his visits to Tibet on how Tibetan language and culture is disappearing fast as Tibet is overrun by a mjority of Chinese and even Tibetan children are forced to learn only Chinese at school and have trouble understanding him. He uses the metaphor of cancer and the word mortal danger. This concern has been shared by westerners for several decades since the cultural revolution that destroyed so much of Tibet and now the overwhelming of Tibetans by Chinese immigrants. This which even non Buddhist westerners are aware of is the danger of disappearance of Tibetan culture and language as he says the the elders will die and it can be lost within a generation or two easily and the exile community is no substitute for the real living thing inside.

Now first of all if you like to go off-topic then open a new thread on the plus and minuses of Tibetan vs. Western culture in the lounge or wherever. Secondly this shows how a small minority do not even understand basic things ChNNR says like the need to save the Tibetan culture from disappearance that even average people on the street might be aware of as an issue, nevermind his more advanced teachings they often misrepresent here. So when he says I want to save my culture from disappearance and as we see in this thread people say I have and want to save my culture too(!), go ahead. But you will be wasting the few remaining years of precious human life that is very rare to get again in the universe. And let me assure you the French language is alive and spoken and kept vibrant and evolving by many millions in a free country preserving it's culture in freodom as well as Le Figaro, etc. or Super Bowl, Las Vegas and the English language etc. are not in imminenet mortal danger of becoming a minority in exile dead culture. So lets not go off-topic and ruin each other weekends with a huge diversion instead of "Institutional Buddhism" due to the usual inability to understand even the basic things ChNNR talks about.

Have a good weekend.

Thank you again, username!
It seems that we - people here - are transmitting and receiving in different frequencies. That's why we cannot meet people with people...
So long as I don't go out in the streets be dressed like this:

Of course, I shall not go out in the streets be dressed like that either:


Both "dresses" are irrelevant with Dharma, Buddhism, Dzogchen, Bon, Tantra, Vajrayana, Total Liberation, Enlightenment etc etc etc.
I don't understand what some Dharma-Wheelians are talking about....

[krodha]

Of course, I shall not go out in the streets be dressed like that either:

I'd wear one of those hats.... I almost bought one a lady was selling at a little tibetan shop last year. I have a friend who wears those little disc things with the straps they're wearing, I forget what they're called... he has a Guru Rinpoche one and a Samantabhadra one... stylin' and wylin'.

[username]

Hi Dronma,
You are correct. Actually a lot of the Tibetan Buddhist institutes in history to this very day, which is the topic here, owe their roots of much of their traditions of debate, mode of analysis, etc. to Nalanda and other North Indian institutes which apart from Indians' own indigenous cultural heritage roots goes back to a great extent to ancient Greece. Even a lot of the art started in Gandhara kingdom, ancient Afghanistan and the Kushan empire and was to a large extent based on Greek art specially sculpture. The whole set of various influences largely happened after Alexander's death when the new empire was divided and the main eastern chunk called Seleucid empire included Afghanistan and parts of North West India then (most of Pakistan). This influenced Indians greatly in philosophy, logic, medicine, arts, warfare, etc. and specially debating's historical discourse and context later taken up via Nalanda in Tibet as Seleucids lasted for roughly 250 years till about half a century before Jesus. So certain aspects of Tibetan Institutional Buddhist traits goes back not only to India but Greece too.

Have a good weekend.

[Dronma]

Of course, I shall not go out in the streets be dressed like that either:

I'd wear one of those hats.... I almost bought one a lady was selling at a little tibetan shop last year. I have a friend who wears those little disc things with the straps they're wearing, I forget what they're called... he has a Guru Rinpoche one and a Samantabhadra one... stylin' and wylin'.

Well, you just gave me inspiration....
Maybe I'll go out totally naked with sandals on my feet (Greek style), a Damaru on the one hand and a Bell on the other, a big Purba hanging on my belt (yes, naked with a belt and sandals!), and a HUGE Christian Cross as a pendant......

[Dronma]

Hi Dronma,
You are correct. Actually a lot of the Tibetan Buddhist institutes in history to this very day, which is the topic here, owe their roots of much of their traditions of debate, mode of analysis, etc. to Nalanda and other North Indian institutes which apart from Indians' own indigenous cultural heritage roots goes back to a great extent to ancient Greece. Even a lot of the art started in Gandhara kingdom, ancient Afghanistan and the Kushan empire and was to a large extent based on Greek art specially sculpture. The whole set of various influences largely happened after Alexander's death when the new empire was divided and the main eastern chunk called Seleucid empire included Afghanistan and parts of North West India then (most of Pakistan). This influenced Indians greatly in philosophy, logic, medicine, arts, warfare, etc. and specially debating's historical discourse and context later taken up via Nalanda in Tibet as Seleucids lasted for roughly 250 years till about half a century before Jesus. So certain aspects of Tibetan Institutional Buddhist traits goes back not only to India but Greece too.

Have a good weekend.

Thank you, username!
I am astonished by your knowledge! Only a few people are really aware of these historical facts.
Yes, it seems that there are not absolute borders for cultural and philosophical exchanges on Planet Earth.
We are ALL interdependent!
I am sure that in the near future many historical evidences will come in light, which they will be critical for the route of Dharma in the Western civilization. We are only in the beginning...

[Lhug-Pa]

I'd wear one of those hats.... I almost bought one a lady was selling at a little tibetan shop last year. I have a friend who wears those little disc things with the straps they're wearing, I forget what they're called... he has a Guru Rinpoche one and a Samantabhadra one... stylin' and wylin'.

You should have seen the Tibetan hat that I rocked for a couple of winters. I can't even find one in a Google image search, but the tassles on each side stood up instead of hanging down, it was ridiculous.

The new style: Bubble-goose coats and Wallabee Clarks or Timberland boots with mad different styles of Himalayan hats.


Moved part of this post to here:

Music Time
.

[krodha]

I'd wear one of those hats.... I almost bought one a lady was selling at a little tibetan shop last year. I have a friend who wears those little disc things with the straps they're wearing, I forget what they're called... he has a Guru Rinpoche one and a Samantabhadra one... stylin' and wylin'.

Well, you just gave me inspiration....
Maybe I'll go out totally naked with sandals on my feet (Greek style), a Damaru on the one hand and a Bell on the other, a big Purba hanging on my belt (yes, naked with a belt and sandals!), and a HUGE Christian Cross as a pendant......

I just go out dressed like this:


...no big deal.

[krodha]

I'd wear one of those hats.... I almost bought one a lady was selling at a little tibetan shop last year. I have a friend who wears those little disc things with the straps they're wearing, I forget what they're called... he has a Guru Rinpoche one and a Samantabhadra one... stylin' and wylin'.

You should have seen the Tibetan hat that I rocked for a couple of winters. I can't even find one in a Google image search, but the tassles on each side stood up instead of hanging down, it was ridiculous.

The new style: Bubble-goose coats and Wallabee Clarks or Timberland boots with mad different styles of Himalayan hats.

Thugged out.

phpBB [video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gCU5uplB4A

What about this dude.

Throat singing growl into a OM AH HUNG in the beginning, rapping/singing... he puts on a good show even though the audience looks halfway horrified.

phpBB [video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnCYx2fswQQ

Savagely

Mr. G's about to put this on lockdown for 3 incalculable eons.