Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

tinylocusta
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by tinylocusta »

I came across this forum, read quite a few pages of this thread and I'm a bit shocked, for many reasons. First, there are several bits of untrue information based on hearsay (some completely false, some mixed with some truth, as it happens with gossip). Second, frankly I'm appalled at what is going on here. This weekend, the most important event since Rinpoche passed away took place, a cause of joy (and liberation) for many. Yet, what I can find here are mostly snarky remarks about PowerPoint slides etc. People toss around blatantly false oneliners with such confidence you could believe they're true if you didn't know better.

Yes, Rinpoche had hoped someone from among His students could continue some of His work but this hasn't happened. If it was just Vajrayana, you could be satisfied with just performing some actions like accumulating a number of mantras etc. like Malcolm says. But in Dzogchen you need to have a very precise knowledge and at least some stability in it. If we want such a person to appear, we need to practice ourselves, instead of pushing Adriano and so on. Pushing for something external makes no sense and is directly against what Rinpoche taught. He said several times a lung from a recording won't work, and someone proposes just that. He said that SMS instructors can only teach their respective SMS levels, and now they're being pushed to teach everything. We need to apply what the Master was teaching us for decades instead of behaving like wailing old ladies (no offence to old ladies!).

I want to give you an example. Let's go back to the time Rinpoche arrived to Khamdogar. Time is passing and Changchub Dorje is firmly refusing to give Him any teachings, doesn't behave like a teacher at all, and instead teases and mocks Him ("yeah, you studied so much your nose became logic and your mouth became Madhyamaka", "Are you a monk? Because that girl over there clearly likes you!"). So He asks his other students about the master. Surprised, He hears things like "Well, I liked Nyagla Rangrig more" "Yes, Nyagla Rangrig was the real thing" "I don't know, he seems more into medicine these days" "Yeah, sometimes he asks other people to leave and he does his thing with a student, but for all we know it could be some schmoo." "If he had compassion, he would give teachings to everybody everyday!" Imagine how would you feel then. Yet, these are some of the lightest things one might hear here and there, also on this forum. It is as if nobody really read The Lamp That Enlightens Narrow Minds, in spite of Rinpoche's very precise request to do so (He did not ask us to do so many things, you know) - or people who read it completely ignored its crystal-clear message!

I feel this great misunderstanding may stem from the fact that people do not understand what Dzogchen really is and how it can be transmitted and taught. At the time of Manjushrimitra, Dola Sershun was extremely important as everybody cared about Yogacara and Mahayana in general, it was a kind of a state religion. Today, nobody knows what Yogacara is and few people care about Mahayana. Apart from a few peculiar individuals, young people are not interested in Vajrayana, why should they imagine strange Hindu deities? What they need is someone who can present their real nature in the context of the illusion they are currently living in, from Tik Tok to quantum physics. And yet, we still have very strong opinions on how the State should be introduced. And we want to impose these opinions, including taking the organizational burden and responsibility on someone just like other people were doing in the past. If that person does not fulfill our expectations, we are using passive- and active-aggressive speech breaking our samayas and bringing ruin upon ourselves, just like it happened in the past. It really makes me sad.

People seem to have so little confidence. No confidence in their own nature, in their own practice, in dharmapalas, but also no confidence in the decisions of their teachers and, in general, no pure vision at all. Please, reflect a bit about all this.
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

tinylocusta wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:53 pmwe want such a person to appear, we need to practice ourselves, instead of pushing Adriano and so on.
No one is pushing anyone. But if one wishes someone to teach, they must be asked.

As for this weekends event, we will never know what happened.
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

tinylocusta wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:53 pm I came across this forum, read quite a few pages of this thread and I'm a bit shocked, for many reasons. First, there are several bits of untrue information based on hearsay (some completely false, some mixed with some truth, as it happens with gossip). Second, frankly I'm appalled at what is going on here. This weekend, the most important event since Rinpoche passed away took place, a cause of joy (and liberation) for many. Yet, what I can find here are mostly snarky remarks about PowerPoint slides etc. People toss around blatantly false oneliners with such confidence you could believe they're true if you didn't know better.

Yes, Rinpoche had hoped someone from among His students could continue some of His work but this hasn't happened. If it was just Vajrayana, you could be satisfied with just performing some actions like accumulating a number of mantras etc. like Malcolm says. But in Dzogchen you need to have a very precise knowledge and at least some stability in it. If we want such a person to appear, we need to practice ourselves, instead of pushing Adriano and so on. Pushing for something external makes no sense and is directly against what Rinpoche taught. He said several times a lung from a recording won't work, and someone proposes just that. He said that SMS instructors can only teach their respective SMS levels, and now they're being pushed to teach everything. We need to apply what the Master was teaching us for decades instead of behaving like wailing old ladies (no offence to old ladies!).

I want to give you an example. Let's go back to the time Rinpoche arrived to Khamdogar. Time is passing and Changchub Dorje is firmly refusing to give Him any teachings, doesn't behave like a teacher at all, and instead teases and mocks Him ("yeah, you studied so much your nose became logic and your mouth became Madhyamaka", "Are you a monk? Because that girl over there clearly likes you!"). So He asks his other students about the master. Surprised, He hears things like "Well, I liked Nyagla Rangrig more" "Yes, Nyagla Rangrig was the real thing" "I don't know, he seems more into medicine these days" "Yeah, sometimes he asks other people to leave and he does his thing with a student, but for all we know it could be some schmoo." "If he had compassion, he would give teachings to everybody everyday!" Imagine how would you feel then. Yet, these are some of the lightest things one might hear here and there, also on this forum. It is as if nobody really read The Lamp That Enlightens Narrow Minds, in spite of Rinpoche's very precise request to do so (He did not ask us to do so many things, you know) - or people who read it completely ignored its crystal-clear message!

I feel this great misunderstanding may stem from the fact that people do not understand what Dzogchen really is and how it can be transmitted and taught. At the time of Manjushrimitra, Dola Sershun was extremely important as everybody cared about Yogacara and Mahayana in general, it was a kind of a state religion. Today, nobody knows what Yogacara is and few people care about Mahayana. Apart from a few peculiar individuals, young people are not interested in Vajrayana, why should they imagine strange Hindu deities? What they need is someone who can present their real nature in the context of the illusion they are currently living in, from Tik Tok to quantum physics. And yet, we still have very strong opinions on how the State should be introduced. And we want to impose these opinions, including taking the organizational burden and responsibility on someone just like other people were doing in the past. If that person does not fulfill our expectations, we are using passive- and active-aggressive speech breaking our samayas and bringing ruin upon ourselves, just like it happened in the past. It really makes me sad.

People seem to have so little confidence. No confidence in their own nature, in their own practice, in dharmapalas, but also no confidence in the decisions of their teachers and, in general, no pure vision at all. Please, reflect a bit about all this.
Agree from top to bottom.
Thanks
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

tinylocusta wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:53 pm What they need is someone who can present their real nature in the context of the illusion they are currently living in, from Tik Tok to quantum physics.
And this is how Secret Mantra, including Dzogchen, degenerates. Apparently you also were not paying attention to Rinpoche, when he chided people for their criticisms of creation stage because of the ancient Indian costumes.

These things, quantum physics to Tiktok, are irrelevant to the question of liberation and freedom from rebirth. If someone does not accept rebirth, they cannot teach Dzogchen, much less Buddhadharma.
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:44 pm
tinylocusta wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:53 pm What they need is someone who can present their real nature in the context of the illusion they are currently living in, from Tik Tok to quantum physics.
And this is how Secret Mantra, including Dzogchen, degenerates. Apparently you also were not paying attention to Rinpoche, when he chided people for their criticisms of creation stage because of the ancient Indian costumes.

These things, quantum physics to Tiktok, are irrelevant to the question of liberation and freedom from rebirth. If someone does not accept rebirth, they cannot teach Dzogchen, much less Buddhadharma.
Rinpoche thought and stated that yeshi can teach. Thats it for me, regardless of what yeshe said in a meeting or not.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

tinylocusta wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:53 pmApart from a few peculiar individuals, young people are not interested in Vajrayana, why should they imagine strange Hindu deities? What they need is someone who can present their real nature in the context of the illusion they are currently living in, from Tik Tok to quantum physics. And yet, we still have very strong opinions on how the State should be introduced. And we want to impose these opinions, including taking the organizational burden and responsibility on someone just like other people were doing in the past. If that person does not fulfill our expectations, we are using passive- and active-aggressive speech breaking our samayas and bringing ruin upon ourselves, just like it happened in the past. It really makes me sad.

People seem to have so little confidence. No confidence in their own nature, in their own practice, in dharmapalas, but also no confidence in the decisions of their teachers and, in general, no pure vision at all. Please, reflect a bit about all this.
You are mixing two worlds here, the traditional one of Tibetan Buddhism (breaking our samaya and bringing ruin upon ourselves, having pure vision, etc) and the very contemporary world of the globalised West (including its pop psychology). Similarly, you want Dzogchen to be intrinsically above and beyond Vajrayana, while using purely Vajrayana rhetoric and relying on the strict Vajrayana framework. You are eating the cake and having it too.

Also, to state the obvious --

this thread has its history. The debate has its history. Each of us here has their histories. Having just stumbled upon DW you know nothing of them at all.
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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Tata1 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:09 pm
Rinpoche thought and stated that yeshi can teach. Thats it for me, regardless of what yeshe said in a meeting or not.
Leading students is not a simple matter of giving an introduction and then disappearing. It is a commitment to lead them on the path in a proper way. For example, like the commitment ChNN made to his students for decades and 600+ retreats.

It is not some technical issue, which is what everyone treats it as, it is not merely a question of mechanics, "Have DI, then travel."

The DC is, at present, running the risk of becoming a strange thing, unnormal, as the Boss used to say.
PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

tinylocusta wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:53 pm If it was just Vajrayana, you could be satisfied with just performing some actions like accumulating a number of mantras etc.
I don’t think you understand Vajrayana, or that Dzogchen is vajrayana.
I want to give you an example. Let's go back to the time Rinpoche arrived to Khamdogar. Time is passing and Changchub Dorje is firmly refusing to give Him any teachings
Yes, we’ve all heard that story many times. He was not putting down the role of study or elaborate empowerments. He was making a different point.
It is as if nobody really read The Lamp That Enlightens Narrow Minds


If you spent more than five minutes on this forum you would realize that most of us have read it and are very familiar with what it has to say about Derge politics and other topics.
this great misunderstanding may stem from the fact that people do not understand what Dzogchen really is and how it can be transmitted and taught. At the time of Manjushrimitra…
Let me stop you there. It would not be a great idea to assume that people here do not understand how Dzogchen is taught and practiced.
People seem to have so little confidence. No confidence in their own nature, in their own practice, in dharmapalas, but also no confidence in the decisions of their teachers and, in general, no pure vision at all. Please, reflect a bit about all this.
Please, have a little humility and desist from the presumptuousness.
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:38 pm
Tata1 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:09 pm
Rinpoche thought and stated that yeshi can teach. Thats it for me, regardless of what yeshe said in a meeting or not.
Leading students is not a simple matter of giving an introduction and then disappearing. It is a commitment to lead them on the path in a proper way. For example, like the commitment ChNN made to his students for decades and 600+ retreats.

It is not some technical issue, which is what everyone treats it as, it is not merely a question of mechanics, "Have DI, then travel."

The DC is, at present, running the risk of becoming a strange thing, unnormal, as the Boss used to say.
And who says yeshi wont lead his students?
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Tata1 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:47 pm
And who says yeshi wont lead his students?
Time will tell, as always. But the thing is, it is the whole DC, not just a select cohort who signed NDA's.
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Tata1 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:38 pm
Tata1 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:09 pm
Rinpoche thought and stated that yeshi can teach. Thats it for me, regardless of what yeshe said in a meeting or not.
Leading students is not a simple matter of giving an introduction and then disappearing. It is a commitment to lead them on the path in a proper way. For example, like the commitment ChNN made to his students for decades and 600+ retreats.

It is not some technical issue, which is what everyone treats it as, it is not merely a question of mechanics, "Have DI, then travel."

The DC is, at present, running the risk of becoming a strange thing, unnormal, as the Boss used to say.
And who says yeshi wont lead his students?
Yeshi did. Perhaps what he said in those meetings will turn out not to be accurate, he changes his mind or something, but so far I’m choosing to believe what he himself said unless I hear differently from him.
Tata1
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:17 pm
Tata1 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:38 pm

Leading students is not a simple matter of giving an introduction and then disappearing. It is a commitment to lead them on the path in a proper way. For example, like the commitment ChNN made to his students for decades and 600+ retreats.

It is not some technical issue, which is what everyone treats it as, it is not merely a question of mechanics, "Have DI, then travel."

The DC is, at present, running the risk of becoming a strange thing, unnormal, as the Boss used to say.
And who says yeshi wont lead his students?
Yeshi did. Perhaps what he said in those meetings will turn out not to be accurate, he changes his mind or something, but so far I’m choosing to believe what he himself said unless I hear differently from him.
I prefer not to speculare of a meeting i was not a part of. For example friends who where there had a total different view on what happened that the one held by some forum members here, including the issue of yeshe students.
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Kurp
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Kurp »

Tata1 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:19 pm
I prefer not to speculare of a meeting i was not a part of. For example friends who where there had a total different view on what happened that the one held by some forum members here, including the issue of yeshe students.
Maybe taking this conversation to the Sangha app, where many more IDC members communicate, would be best?

I almost guarantee the conversations there regarding these topics will prove more fruitful than discussing them here in a circular manner with the same 10 (mostly anonymous) people.
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Tata1 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:19 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:17 pm
Tata1 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:47 pm

And who says yeshi wont lead his students?
Yeshi did. Perhaps what he said in those meetings will turn out not to be accurate, he changes his mind or something, but so far I’m choosing to believe what he himself said unless I hear differently from him.
I prefer not to speculare of a meeting i was not a part of. For example friends who where there had a total different view on what happened that the one held by some forum members here, including the issue of yeshe students.
Sure, I completely understand being wary of second hand information. I’ve also heard very different accounts.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by windoverwater »

I was briefly a member of the DC around 2013-2014, but could not afford to attend retreats in person. At that time, I did not have reliable internet access either, so I let the membership lapse. While I practice what I received from Norbu Rinpoche, I do not really know what is going on with the organization now.

What about Rinpoche's daughter? Everyone seems focused on the son. Has his daughter ever said or written anything relevant to the continuation of Rinpoche's work?
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Kurp wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:44 pm
Tata1 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:19 pm
I prefer not to speculare of a meeting i was not a part of. For example friends who where there had a total different view on what happened that the one held by some forum members here, including the issue of yeshe students.
Maybe taking this conversation to the Sangha app, where many more IDC members communicate, would be best?

I almost guarantee the conversations there regarding these topics will prove more fruitful than discussing them here in a circular manner with the same 10 (mostly anonymous) people.
The reason why these issues get discussed here is that there is not point in discussing these things inside community spaces. Nothing changes, people with money make the decisions, everyone else just watches and has opinions.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

windoverwater wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:18 pm What about Rinpoche's daughter? Everyone seems focused on the son. Has his daughter ever said or written anything relevant to the continuation of Rinpoche's work?
florin wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:22 pmApparently there are three people who Rinpoche gave permission to transmit dzogchen:his son, his daughter and a guy in China.
A person i met recently, who had some first hand information, mentioned that he heard Rinpoche’s daughter saying that she will be happy to give transmission in the future but only after she has taken care of her children’s education and their upbringing.
An account whose first part Yeshi disagrees with, insisting that no one has been authorised by Rinpoche to "give transmission."

PS. The word transmission and the phrase "giving transmission" are indeed used in DC parlance in a unique way. "Giving transmission" seems to denote something essentially different from giving a wang (or a lung, or tri, for that matter), and is not entirely synonymous with "giving direct introduction" either (DI being another can of worms). It is indeed as if "giving transmission" were tantamount to plugging one in, or resetting a fracture, a one-time mechanical action which, once it is done, it is just done, now others may take over. And "transmission" feels an almost tangible thing, one which is passed over from person to person (just think of "have you got the transmission?").
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:26 pm PS. The word transmission and the phrase "giving transmission" are indeed used in DC parlance in a unique way. "Giving transmission" seems to denote something essentially different from giving a wang (or a lung, or tri, for that matter), and not entirely synonymous with "giving direct introduction" either. It is indeed as if it were tantamount to plugging one in, or resetting a fracture, a one-time mechanical action which, once it is done, it is just done, now others may take over. And "transmission" feels an almost tangible thing, one which is passed over from person to person (just think of "have you got the transmission?").
This is one of the frustrating things about the DC. You would think if they were going to use this term so often they would understand what it means.
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Kurp
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Kurp »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:26 pm
The reason why these issues get discussed here is that there is not point in discussing these things inside community spaces. Nothing changes, people with money make the decisions, everyone else just watches and has opinions.
Then I wish to win hundreds of millions of dollars in the Powerball jackpot lottery this year so that I may become CEO of all that is the IDC.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

"But in Dzogchen you need to have a very precise knowledge and at least some stability in it."

Tinylocusta is exactly correct. But then there is Dzogchen, and Direct Introduction and yeshe.

“It is complicated but not impossible, by examining the words of ChNN, to figure out what is going on. Perhaps it is just a confusion of the multiple meaning of words. Perhaps, sometimes the words “Yeshe”, “Direct Introduction”, and “Dzogchen” have several meanings, narratives and usages, when used in different contexts by people of different understandings. Perhaps each is correct within their own dimension.

While understanding this, the key political take-a-way in the context of what is happening today in the Dzogchen Community, is that perhaps new definitions, usages and narratives (adding new-age interpretations) for these words allows a new political teaching structure to arise that has very little to do with the former teaching structures, or with the clear guidance of ChNN as to who can teach, and what can be taught, within the IDC.

So today, we have famous “Instructors” praising this new use of words and the new social teaching hierarchy that results within the Dzogchen Community as to who can teach what, under the brand of the Dzogchen Community. What is the motivation of these Instructors and how do they personally benefit by endorsing a perhaps politically motivated new use of these words?”


ChNN's Direct Introduction was always "Generous", easy and regular, and never limited to just a few people in front of him who sign non-disclosure agreements. His Direct Introduction reached to the ends of the universe.

Stability means that you have no hope or fear so you are not afraid to get up in front of 7000 (any number) and give Direct Introduction and explanations.

Please read the wise words of ChNN in the two communications of 2016 about who can teach, and about what his children are allowed to teach.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 79#p598479

ob

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