Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

Karma Dorje wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:38 pm Everyone who received the transmission from the Master, practices according to instructions, and achieves the signs of practice can then transmit the practice to others. Organizations don't own the transmission. At best they can set certain standards for who can teach and how the teachers conduct themselves in public.

The real question is who one trusts. Putting trust in organizations to perform due diligence seems perilous out of the gate. If one has already received transmission from ChNNR and understood the central point clearly, one can trust in that. All that is left is practicing with confidence.

If we want Rinpoche's terma to prosper, it's on each of us to practice with the same enthusiasm we clutch our pearls at each new imagined outrage. We must ourselves become trustworthy guides. All the rest is simply musical chairs.
Well said!!!
oldbob
Posts: 952
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

Yes, trust is a key point.

For Dzogchen practitioners, trust is based on direct personal experience, not second-hand information or titles, fame, intellectual capacity, or verbal ability. Open-hearted kindness – the capacity to freely give DI to as many people as are requesting it, is also trusted. If someone really has the capacity to give DI and is not just staring fixedly into space or just entering a personal absorption, this is easily “directly” seen and understood by experienced practitioners.

The capacity to give a real Direct Introduction to Dzogchen cannot be faked. Openhearted kindness cannot be faked.

And yes, organizations do not have the capacity to do due diligence. It appears that in the IDC, friends of the Gakyils are allowed to “self-certify,” to teach anything they want to.

Legal non-disclosure agreements and a limited numbers of new students only - were never part of the DI from ChNN, or any other Dzogchen Master

Perhaps an elected ‘College of Spiritual Advisors” (CSA) could look at the capacity and qualifications of anyone who wants to teach under the banner of the IDC and what they are proposing to teach. The CSA could then give a one-year, renewable certification for specific practices. The suggestions of the CSA could be confirmed by vote of the IDC members. Then everyone could accept and support these choices and have complete confidence that what is being taught is the actual Transmission Lineage of ChNN.

Many would-be Teachers successfully led a few practices at Merigar after the passing of ChNN. Today, a few SMS Instructors are now giving instruction on a few practices to small numbers of old students.

Perhaps there would be many other qualified Teachers putting themselves forward for vetting, if vetting were allowed by the CSA.

Also, perhaps putting the Digital Archive and Transcript Archive on-line for Members, with links to living lineage holders, would allow many more new practitioners to get the benefit of ALL of the precious Teachings of ChNN. CNN allowed anyone who showed up to attend a retreat. For Togyal and Yangtig you were asked to write a letter of request, but this was also a form of showing up.

A test for Direct Introduction, could be to have the candidates, one at a time, from behind a screen, give a Direct Introduction to a Zoom meeting of experienced Members and then have the Members vote on a scale of 1-10.

You can’t fake real DI. Anyone who has received a DI from ChNN, and “got it,” understands this.

Perhaps a vote of the long-time Members or a vote of the “College of Spiritual Advisors” would also reflect this.

Each candidate for teaching each of the 100+ Secondary Practices could also be vetted by the CSA for each practice. Perhaps each candidate could be invited to give a teaching to a Zoom panel of old Members and then the Members of the Zoom panel would vote.

Perhaps we are not talking about many would be Teachers for many different practices, so this could be doable.

Again, right now there are no standards and so any friend of the Gakyil can get up and teach whatever they want.

Right now there are only a few of the 100+ Secondary Practices contained in the Digital Archive being taught and preserved.

Maybe we can go beyond musical chairs.

ob – Bob Kragen

:heart:


List of Secondary Practices Taught by ChNNR –

This is an open-source document – Please add your corrections / additions and return to:

[email protected]


25 spaces of Samantabhadra [aka thos grol/25 Thigle/25 Longchens] (Changchub Dorje terma)



30 Nyingtams (Longchenpa)



7 Semdzins [sems 'dzin]



21 Semzins



7 Statements Main Points of Shri Singha



9 Purification Breathings [rlung ro bsal ba]



Amitayus Long-Life Practice (Nyagla Pema Dundul terma)



Ati Dzogchen Tregchod (Changchub Dorje terma)



Avalokiteshvara Korwa Tongtrug [spyan ras gzigs] (Adzom Drukpa terma)



Base, Path and Fruit of the Dzogchen Longchen Nyingthig



Bepa'i Gumchung Experiential instructions (Buddhagupta)



Black Manjushri



Black Garuda



Chang Chog - Teachings and Practice of purification for the deceased



Chikhai Bardos [Bardo of the Moment of death]



Chö [gcod] (Machig Labdron/Jigme Lingpa terma) (On the base of Jigme Lingpa Terma with Guru



Yoga of Machig Labdron)



Choszhi Rinchen Trengwa (Longchenpa)



Dark-Blue Garuda (Changchub Dorje terma from the cycle of Lama Zabdon's Khyung-nag)



Dorje Drolod (Adzom Drugpa terma)



Dorje Lü [rdo rje'i glu; Song of Vajra (found in the bi ma snying thig/Tantra of the Union of the Sun
and Moon ___(nyi zla kha sbyor)]



Dorjei Kotrab [Vajra Armor Healing Mantra] (Dorje Lingpa terma)



Dorje Yudronma The Longsal Diviantion of



Guru Dragphur [guru drag phur; aka Guru Dragpo Kila]



Dzogchen Desum [3 Classes of the Great Perfection]



Dzogchen Medjung, The Marvelous state (Tantra of Dzogchen Semde)



Dzogchen Nallug [rdzogs chen rnal lugs]



Dzogchen Padma Nyingthig



Essential Teaching on Vimalamitra light of Dharma



Garab Dorje Guru Yoga of the white A



Ganapuja [thun tshog]



Gomadevi [short, medium and & long version, Nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya and Dharmakaya



Practice of …, Outer, Inner and Secret Practice of …]
Green Tara [Adzom Drugpa terma (Invocation by ChNN)]



Guardian Practice: Invocations of Ekajati, Rahula and Dorje Legpa. Special mantra invocation –



Ngak kong



Introduction to the real essence of the Dzogchen Teachings of Garab Dorje



Jangchub Semgom [The Instruction of Primordial State of the Dzogchen Text “Dola Serjung by Manjushrimitra]



Khading Shoklap




Khorde Rüshan ['khor 'das ru shan]




Khyung Chen Dingwa [khyung chen lding ba; The Flight of the Garuda]




Kumar Kumari Yantra Yoga for Children


Kunje Gyalpo [kun byed rgyal po'i rgyud]



Kuntu Zangpo Mönlam [kun bzang smon lam; Invocation of Samatabhadra] (Gödem Chen terma
from Kunye massage

Kunsang Jaku


Gongpa Zangthal Gyi Gyü)



Kyechi Bardo [Bardo of the life time]



Lam Zhi Dras (Changchub Dorje terma)



Lama Zabdon Nyingthig (Chanchub Dorje terma)



Lhalung Sangdag (Heka Lingpa terma)



Longde



Long life Practice and Chüdlen of Nyagla Pema Dündul, Amitayus



Long life Practice with Guru Rinpoche



Longsal Root Empowerment (Empowerment of Gomadevi)



Longsal: Actions of the Guru Jñanadakini [bla ma ye shes mkha' 'gro'i phrin las rgya]



Longsal: Bardo Instructions Sealed with the HUM [bar do'i gdams pa hum gi rgya can]



Longsal: Direct Introduction to the Principle of the Mirror of Vajrasattva [rdor sems me long gi dgongs pa ngo ___sprod]
Longsal: Essence of the Heart of Guru Jnanadhakkini (Lama Yeshes Khadro'i Thugthig)



Longsal: King of Space [nam mkha'i rgyal po]



Longsal: Main Points of the View Totally Beyond the Conceptual Mind [lta ba blo 'das chen po'i gnad byang]



Longsal: Most Important Point of the Lama Gongdü [bla ma dgongs 'dus kyi gnad gzer]



od 'bras kyi gnad gzer ___aka A ti'i gnad gzer man ngag]



Longsal: Opening of the Gate to the State of Ati [a ti'i dgongs pa sgo 'byed]



Longsal: Outer, Inner, and Secret Practices of the Guru Wisdom Dakini [la ma ye shes mkha' 'gro ma'i phyi nang ___gsang gsum las byang]



Longsal: Principle of the View Totally Beyond Conceptual Mind [lta ba blo 'das chen po'i dgongs pa]



Preliminary Practice From the Longsal Cycle



Longsal: Profound Essential Upadesha of the Long Life Practice & The Thigle of Vajra Life [tshe sgrub rdo rje'i ___srog thig gi gnad kyi man ngag zab mo]



Longsal: Purification of the Six Lokas as Preliminaries of the Path of Ati [a ti'i lam sngon rigs drug gnas sbyong ___aka A ti'i lam gnad sngon 'gro]



Longsal: Root Upadesha on the Vajra Bridge of Longde/Ngondzog Gyalpo [klong sde rdo rje zam pa'i man ngag ___gi rtsa ba] (May 2012)



Longsal: Tantra of the Manifestation of the Vajra Dance That Liberates the Six Classes in the Six Spaces [klong ___drug 'gro ba drug grol gyi rdo rje'i gar rgya rnam par bkod pa'i rgyud]



Longsal: Thigle of Vajra Life, Longevity Practice of the Immortal Dakini ['chi med mkha' 'gro'i tshe sgrub rdo rje ___srog thig rgya]



Longsal: Upadesha for the Self-Liberation of the Six Lokas [rgyud drug rang grol gyi man ngag]



Longsal: Upadesha of Introduction to the State of Ati [a ti'i dgongs pa ngo sprod kyi man ngag]



Longsal: Upadesha of the Oral Transmission of Thangtong Gyalpo [thang rgyal snyan rgyud kyi man ngag]



Longsal: Upadesha on All-Penetrating Wisdom [ye shes zang thal gyi man ngag]



Longsal: Upadesha on the Guruyoga of the White A [a dkar bla ma'i rnal 'byor gyi man ngag]



Longsal: Upadesha on the Profound Path of Illusory Body [zab lam sgyu lus kyi man ngag]



Longsal: Upadesha on the Thögal of Self-Perfected Luminous Clarity [lhun grub 'od gsal thod rgal gyi man ngag]



Longsal: Upadesha on the Total Behavior of Equal Taste [spyod pa ro snyoms chen po'i man ngag]



Longsal: Upadesha on the Tregchö of Primordial Purity [ka dag khregs chod kyi man ngag]



Longsal: Upadesha on the Twenty-Five Spaces [klong chen nyi shu rtsa lnga'i man ngag]



Longsal: Way to Practice the Profound Path of Guru Kalachakra [bla ma dus kyi 'khor lo'i zab lam nyams su len ___tshul]
Longsal: Wish-Fulfilling Jewel, Thigle of the Mind of the Guru Wisdom Dakini [bla ma ye shes mkha' 'gro'i ___thugs thig yid bzhin nor bu]



Longsal: Yangti Yoga of Darkness [yang ti mun pa'i rnal 'byor]



Longsal: Yoga of Prana for Clarity and Emptiness [gsal stong rlung gi rnal 'byor]



Lungta [rlung rta]



Man ngag 'Odsal Nangcha (Patrul Rinpoche)



Man ngag tag drol gyud (Changchub Dorje terma)



Mandarava Tsalung



Mandarava Long-life & Chüdlen



Marme Mönlam [mar me smon lam] (Adzom Drukpa terma)



Medicine Buddha [Bhaiṣajyaguruvaidūryaprabharāja]



Medicine Terma of Rigdzin Changchub Dorje



Method of Integration from Dzogchen Upadesha root tantra Dra Thalgyur



Milam – Dream practice



Mo Divination



Naga Practice



Namkha [nam mkha]



Narag Tongtrug



Naslug Cherthong of Jigmed Lingpa [the naked condition of Dzogchen]



Nyamtrid Dzogchen Nyinthig



Nyangyud Khorva Dongtruk



Özer Chenma ['Od zer can ma; Skt: Marici]



Padma Nyingthig [pad ma snying thig]



Phowa (Terma of Chanchub Dorje)



Precious Mala - Four Dharmas of Gampopa



Purification of the 6 Lokas (Nyagla Pema Dündul terma)



Purification of Six Locas with Vajrasattva



Purification of Six Locas with special body postures and visualisations (terma of ?)



Red Garuda (Adzom Drugpa terma)



rigs-drug gnas-sbyong



Rushen



Sang [bsang mchod] (Adzom Drugpa)



Sangye Lakchang (Namchos Migyur Dorje terma)



Semde Rigpa'i Khujyug [rig pa'i khu byug; The Cuckoo of Presence]



Semde, The Four Contemplations of the



Semlung Namkhache



Semdzin



Semdzin with the Syllable Phat



Serkyem (Nub Sangye Yeshe)



Shakyamuni’s Praises to the 21 Taras. and restored transmission of Sanskrit text of …



Shitro (Teachings and Practice from the terma of Mingyur Dorje)



Short Ganapuja of Jigme Lingpa



Shri Gyalpo'i Khyadchos (Patrul Rinpoc






Song of Energy



Song of the Vajra



Statements of Four Stages of Relaxation of Jnanasutra



Thos Grol. The Practice of the Twenty-five Thigles



Togal



Tregchöd - The Four Chogshag.



Tregcho teaching of Jigmed Lingpa from the Instruction "Yeshe Lama"



Tsik Sum Nedeg [tshig gsum gnad du brdeg pa; Three Statements of Garab Dorje]



Tundrin [thun 'bring; medium tun]



Tundus [thun bsdus; short tun]



Tungyas [thun rgyas; longer thun]



Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen from the great master Araga



Vaidurya'i Chun-phyangs of Patrul Rinpoche



Vajra Armor



Vajra Breathing [rdo rje'i bzlas pa]



Vajra Dance of the Song of Vajra



Vajra Dance that Liberates Six Lokas



Vajra Dance of Tree Vajras



Vagra dance of Twelve A (Khalong Dorje Kar)



Vajra Dance



Vajrapani (Heka Lingpa terma)



Purification Practice of Vajrasattva



Mandala Offering – Nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya and Dharmakaya Mandala Offering, Teaching of Padmasambgava (terma)



Yangti
Dark Retreat



Yeshes Zangthal and NadzerZernga [gzer lnga; “Five Nails”]



Zhaldam [Advice of Khyenrab Chos-kyi Odzer]



Zhenpa Zhidral
Zhine and Lhagthong of Dzogchen [zhi gnas; Skt: shamatha / lhag mthong; Skt: vipashyana]



Zhine related with the Longsal Ati Gongpa Ngosprod



Zhitro Khordas Rangdrol [zhi khro 'khor 'das rang grol] (Changchub Dorje terma)



Zhitro [zhi khro] (Namchö Mingyur Dorje terma)



Zhuslan [Request & Reply of Jyithing Lhamo, King Khrisong, Shelkarza Dorjetsho, Yeshe



Tshogyal, Vairocana, ___Gomchens (Great Meditators) and Geshes]



I would suggest to add:
Advice on the everyday practice for Dzogchen practitioners



Three and Four Essential Aspects of the Dzogchen practice in everyday life



Pracice of tNamkha Arte



Advice on Integration



Kalachakra Empowerment, Teachings and Practice in Anugoga and Atiyoga Form – from the terma of Janchub Dorje



The Vajra Song of Ganachakra



Complete Lung Transmission of Dra Thalgyur Tantra



Teachings on Santi Maha Sangha of the Base, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Levels



Empowerment of Varasattva



21 Empowerments of Dzogchen Semde



Empowerment, Guru-Yoga and Sadhana of Ngondzog Gyalpo (mngon rdzogs rgyal po)



Method of Four Developments (? The balancing of elements related to the special mantras, forms and colors. I don’t remember what is exactly the title of the this Teaching)
User avatar
Virgo
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Location: Uni-verse

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

oldbob wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:50 pm
Method of Four Developments (? The balancing of elements related to the special mantras, forms and colors. I don’t remember what is exactly the title of the this Teaching)
The Four Methods of Development.

Virgo
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Kelwin
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:52 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Kelwin »

oldbob wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:50 pm Perhaps an elected ‘College of Spiritual Advisors” (CSA) could look at the capacity and qualifications of anyone who wants to teach under the banner of the IDC and what they are proposing to teach. The CSA could then give a one-year, renewable certification for specific practices. The suggestions of the CSA could be confirmed by vote of the IDC members. Then everyone could accept and support these choices and have complete confidence that what is being taught is the actual Transmission Lineage of ChNN.
Bob, I've been reading your posts, and I love your effort and positive attitude. Yet I strongly disagree with your suggested solutions. A CSA would be just as terrible of a political institution as the old ruling elites of monasteries in Tibet were. Something Rinpoche's own teachers already resisted.

Let's not try to make a structure to keep in place what cannot be kept. Rinpoche showed the infinite possibility of a free mind. Let's not cage the impermanent forms he created, but instead be free ourselves.
PeterC
Posts: 5192
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

Kelwin wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:37 am
oldbob wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:50 pm Perhaps an elected ‘College of Spiritual Advisors” (CSA) could look at the capacity and qualifications of anyone who wants to teach under the banner of the IDC and what they are proposing to teach. The CSA could then give a one-year, renewable certification for specific practices. The suggestions of the CSA could be confirmed by vote of the IDC members. Then everyone could accept and support these choices and have complete confidence that what is being taught is the actual Transmission Lineage of ChNN.
Bob, I've been reading your posts, and I love your effort and positive attitude. Yet I strongly disagree with your suggested solutions. A CSA would be just as terrible of a political institution as the old ruling elites of monasteries in Tibet were. Something Rinpoche's own teachers already resisted.

Let's not try to make a structure to keep in place what cannot be kept. Rinpoche showed the infinite possibility of a free mind. Let's not cage the impermanent forms he created, but instead be free ourselves.
I have to agree, this would be a terrible idea. It’s also completely unnecessary.

Bob, I think at some point you need to accept that things will not go back to the way they were, and the DC will not provide a solution to these issues. You are flogging the dried out skeleton of a horse that died long ago.
oldbob
Posts: 952
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

Dear all and All,

I don't know - my horse (goodwill and hope for the Dzogchen Community) is alive and well.

I encourage everyone of goodwill towards ChNN and the DC to share ideas and collaborate.

If anyone has ill will towards ChNN and the continuation of his Transmission Lineage, maybe they should examine their motivation before speaking.

This was sent out to the IG and all and All at the end of last year. These issues are still relevant and still need to be put on the table now that the three-year period of mourning is officially over.

Please do not lose patience with the length of this writing but read and respond a little bit at a time, as you are able.

In sum, the issue is: how do we collaborate to allow the Transmission Lineage of ChNN to survive.



:heart:
___________________________________________________________________

To the Gakyil and members of the International Dzogchen Community, all and All.

Hope you are all staying safe and enjoying the 2020 holidays.

These issues are presented in the hope that those in power in the IDC will bring them up for discussion in zoom meetings with the entire general membership of the IDC. These issues are just a starting point for an ongoing discussion.

To encourage open discussion and collaboration, perhaps there could be a monthly General Meeting, with zoom attendance and participation allowed. These issues are not presented in any order of importance, or linkage, but are meant to be individual topics of discussion. It is respectfully suggested that you read one topic at a time and then stop and think about what is being presented.

1. Transmission of Direct Introduction (DI). This is the Direct Introduction of the state of Ati-Guru-Yoga that was given by ChNNR 4 times per year in the "World Wide Transmission." It appears that Rinpoche left no indication as to whom should give this Transmission. Many people who would know have stated this.

Some of the choices are:

A. To continue with the finding of "No more DI" as introduced in the 2019 Yearly Meeting and continued in the 2020 Yearly Meeting.

B. To allow Direct Introduction from a relative of Rinpoche. If a relative of Rinpoche has the capacity to give Direct Introduction, then that relative, the same as any other person who has that capacity, should be able to give that Transmission. To date,
it is clear that no relative of Rinpoche has offered to give Direct Introduction. It is clear that Rinpoche himself did not specify any relative to have permission to give Direct Introduction.

C. To allow DI from Rinpoche's spirit: Rinpoche can be visualized as the union of all Masters. This could be incorporated into the Guru Yoga of the White Ah, or a recording of Rinpoche giving the Worldwide Transmission and sounding the syllable “Phet!”

D. To allow for a DI from the Community to the Community at the same time each week, month, or 4 times per year. This could also be incorporated into the Guru Yoga of the White Ah, or a recording of Rinpoche sounding the syllable “Phet!”

E. To allow for DI, on a regular basis, from a living, recognized Tibetan Dzogchen Great Master such as:

Garchen Rinpoche

https://garchen.net/

Traga Rinpoche
http://www.rigdzindharma.org/our-founde ... ector.html
Ven.Traga Rinpoche holds the lineage of Dzogchen Transmission from Rigdzen Changchub Dorje Rinpoche and many other Dzogchen Masters.

Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche

Yongdzin Lopön Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche has taught at Merigar.
http://www.shenten.org/

Dru-gu Choegyal Rinpoche

He has also taught at Merigar and is also well known and very respected within the IDC.

http://www.choegyalrinpoche.org/

There are also many Dzogchen Masters listed in the Dzogchen Resources section of Dharma Wheel.

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8917

ChNNR, himself, studied with many Dzogchen Masters. In the 38 years of following ChNNR I never heard him once say that his students should only follow one Dzogchen Master. This decision was always left up to the individual.

Also, ChNNR invited many Dzogchen Masters from different Tibetan lineages to teach his students.

Perhaps developing a new form of ongoing Direct Introduction is the single most important issue facing the Dzogchen Community. Without a way to have a Direct Introduction, new students do not have a way of entering the Dzogchen practices of the IDC. They are blocked from buying restricted books, attending restricted practices, opening the restricted section of the Webcast replays, and entering their own experiential personal practice of Dzogchen.

2. Discussion of why Ati-Guruyoga is the Primary Practice and why the IAYF website path, is not ideal for new followers of the IDC.

As written below, the proposed International Atiyoga Foundation Website seems to indicate that a long introduction is necessary before allowing new students to access the Dzogchen Teachings of ChNNR.

https://atiyogafoundation.net/

On this website, under Studies, Inner Knowledge, it is written:

"Courses in this field, such as those dealing with the ability to maintain presence and awareness will begin with the study of various teachings which do not require any form of transmission. Also, those practices within the Three Trainings that constitute the foundation of the path: morality (shila), contemplation (samadhi), and wisdom (prajna) that belong to the Sutra teachings as found in the schools of Hinayana and Mahayana.

More advanced courses may include studies and practices which are related to the Dzogchen transmission of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu or another qualified master, as well as Vajrayana teachings. The requirements for such courses are a willingness to receive transmission and to keep the Samaya (commitment) that transmission entails. Students will of course have ample opportunity to discuss this opportunity further as they study."

This is a wholly new sequence of presentation of the Dzogchen Teachings of ChNNR that apparently did not come from his direction, but is a creation of the dimension of those who created this website.

From the beginning, in every retreat, ChNNR taught the highest Ati-Guruyoga, the primary practice of the Dzogchen Community, to all who attended.

There were no prerequisites, or preliminary requirements, of any sort. ChNNR taught that it was up to the individual to observe themselves and to pursue practices, at a level, that are appropriate for that individual. ChNNR taught that Ati-guruyoga is the non-dual path of integration of all that arises 24 / 7. This was taught in every practice retreat that ChNNR gave. A Direct Introduction introduced this non-dual path of integration of Ati-guruyoga in every retreat.

It should be noted that traditional Dzogchen Masters start off newcomers with the Nundro from day 1. The fourth section of the Nundro includes Guru Yoga and ends with absorption into Ati-Guruyoga. The key point is that newcomers, both traditionally, and in the former retreats of ChNNR, are introduced to Ati-guruyoga from day 1.

I fear that any new student who has read a book that leads them to the Dzogchen Teachings of ChNNR will be completely discouraged by the website of the IAYF. No new or old student of ChNNR was required to jump through the IAYF hoops while ChNNR was alive.

Serious newcomers seeking Dzogchen Teachings will take one look at the IAYF website and go to other Dzogchen resources where they are immediately introduced to Ati-Guruyoga.

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8917

For those seeking the subjects of the IAYF, there are excellent resources already on the web where students can access these paths.

http://vajradance.net/
http://www.yantrayoga.net/
https://www.facebook.com/harmonyinthespace/
https://www.mindful.org/mindfulness-how-to-do-it/

A Google search on Basic Buddhism leads to 25,000,000 results. There are many excellent free resources.

Perhaps no one comes to the IDC to learn basic Buddhism. Perhaps people come to the IDC to learn Dzogchen.

ChNNR never made the completion of any basic Buddhism course of study, or practice, to be a requirement to attend retreats or do Dzogchen practices – even the most advanced. Only the SMS path had such requirements, and the nine-level SMS path was stopped at Level Two for Instructors and completion of Level Three for Practitioners.

In summation, the suggested path of teachings and practices, for newcomers of the IAYF website, is profoundly different from the sequence of what ChNNR required. Names (IAYF) aside, you cannot have Ati-yoga without personal experience of Direct Introduction.

Without Ati-Guruyoga, there is no Dzogchen.

3. Who can teach the Secondary Practices? It appears that Rinpoche himself left no indication as to whom this should be.
The choices are:

A. To allow ChNNR to teach newcomers his practices from the recorded audio and videotapes recorded at the more than 550 retreats that he gave around the world. Perhaps this is the best way to maintain the "purity of transmission" that some seem concerned with. If Teachings are directly received from recordings of Rinpoche then there is no issue of someone less enlightened than Rinpoche leaving an important point out, or adding something of their own. Living lineage holders can be available to answer questions and give their personal encouragement for each practice.

B. To allow Transmission of the Secondary Practices from the spirit of Rinpoche in the same way that the Omniscient Longchenpa gave transmission of the Longchen Nyingtig to Ven. Jigmed Lingpa. If someone says that they have had a vision or dream of ChNNR in which He has given them permission to do a certain practice --- who are we to say otherwise?

C. To allow Transmission of the Secondary Practices from a relative of Rinpoche. If a relative of Rinpoche has the capacity to give Transmission of the Secondary Practices, then that relative, having the same rights as any other person who has that capacity, should be able to give that Transmission. To date, it is clear that no relative of Rinpoche has offered to give Transmission of the Secondary Practices. It is clear that Rinpoche himself did not specify any relative to have permission to transmit the Secondary Practices.

D. To allow Transmission of the Secondary practices from any student who has accomplished that practice. Rinpoche always taught that this was the key point for allowing someone to teach a practice. Rinpoche also gave letters of authorization to some of his students to teach specific practices. It is clear that anyone having a letter of authorization from Rinpoche has unquestioned permission to teach those practices mentioned in that letter.

E. Allowing Lung Transmission to be received from recordings of Rinpoche.

ChNNR taught that receiving a Lung, listening to a reading of the Tibetan text of a practice, was necessary for permission to do a specific practice. Working with circumstances, perhaps it is possible to allow Reading Permission for the “Lung” of practices to be obtained by newcomers listening to the recordings of ChNNR. At the end of most retreats, ChNNR would give a Lung reading of Secondary Practices as requested by students. It is possible to make an edited compilation of all of these Lung readings.

When ChNNR gave the Lungs on the webcasts, the reception time of the Lungs at the listener’s ears was delayed by several minutes (sometimes up to 10 minutes) from the time when Rinpoche actually spoke the words. Also, the practitioners did not receive the Lungs at the same time. This displacement in time and lack of simultaneity was not objected to by Rinpoche, or objected to by those receiving this type of non-simultaneous Lung. The implication is that it will be ok in the future for Member practitioners of the IDC to receive Lungs by Internet from recordings of Rinpoche.

If, those who have authority in the Community to make the rules will not allow Lung Permissions from the recordings, current lineage holders could read new "Lungs" of the Secondary Practices, on a regular basis, and also give a short explanation transmission of each practice. This would allow all of the Secondary Practices to be available to newcomers over time. Perhaps there could be an annual gathering for the transmission of the Secondary Practices from the day after Christmas until the transmission is finished, or it could be held mid-Summer, when many have vacations.

Perhaps the new Lungs could be given in local languages with the mantras kept in Tibetan or Sanskrit, as in the original.

Once receiving a new type of Direct Introduction and the Lung for a Secondary Practice from the DA, there would be no difference between the practice Permissions that old-timers received from ChNNR while he was alive, and the practice Permissions received by newcomers from the new DI and from listening to the Lungs from the DA. These new practitioners will then be able to order restricted books and practices from SSI, access to restricted webcasts, and restricted webcast replays, and participate in the restricted teachings and practices of the IDC.

Then all the Secondary Practices will have the potential of being preserved in the practices of Lineage Holders. Allowing this will preserve the unique and rare transmission of ChNNR for all of the future.

F. To allow lineage holders from other lineages to teach the version of a practice that is taught in their lineage. For example, Guru Yoga, Vajrasattva Chod, Shitro, Sang Offering, Protector Practice and Tara, are examples of practices widely taught in many lineages.

G. Some people are claiming that the SMS Instructors are allowed to teach all of the Secondary practices. This is simply not true. This was made clear in two communications from Rinpoche in 2016.

The SMS Instructors have permission from Rinpoche to teach up to the level of SMS for which they have passed the "Teacher Training" test. I believe there is one active Level Two Instructors, four First Level Instructors and the rest are Base Level Instructors. Having checked with those who would know, I believe that ChNNR did not give permission for any of these Instructors to teach all of the Secondary Practices as has been recently suggested.

Rinpoche also did not give authority to anyone but himself to give the "Teacher Training." He always did this himself. Please to remember that the 43 Base Level Instructors have only passed the base level and one short Teachers Training where Rinpoche asked them just a few questions. Base Level SMS Instructors received permission from ChNNR to teach the Base Level of the SMS.

Some SMS Instructors are billing themselves in advertisements, for many different teachings, as “Qualified SMS Instructors” without indicating that their qualification is only to teach up to the level of SMS that they were given permission for by ChNNR, and not for the Secondary Practice in the advertisement. The Gakyil of the Community sponsoring the retreat should not permit this. This is false advertising and reflects badly on the SMS Instructors who are acting in this way. Deceptive advertising also reflects badly on the entire IDC.

Also, with the best of intentions, sometimes SMS Instructors make substantive mistakes. I have witnessed this several times. Perhaps having two or three SMS Instructors teaching together would help prevent errors in the teachings.

4. Perhaps there could be a College of Old Timers who could be certified to teach specific Secondary Practices. ChNNR always said that the old-timers could help teach the newcomers. Maybe there could be a College of Old Timers, who are vetted by the IDC. There needs to be a list of lineage holders who have permission to teach for each of the Secondary Practices. This would be a list of lineage holders who had completed each practice and are willing to teach that practice. This list would need to be updated on a regular basis.

5. The issue of how to allow Members to access the Digital Archive (DA) of the 550 retreats of ChNNR needs to be addressed. A reliable source has indicated that Rinpoche had placed the DA in the small stupa at Merigar because people were fighting over control of the DA. There are credible rumors that what was really put into the stupa was not the original DA, but a "straw dog" of various media designed to give the appearance of the real DA. A reliable source has stated that this was done so that this false DA could be given to anyone outside of the IDC claiming to have ownership of the DA.

There has always been the principle that if you had attended a retreat, then after the retreat, you could always ask SSI to provide a media copy of that retreat. I believe that this very helpful Community resource was suspended after the false DA was “put in the stupa.”

Since circumstances have changed, and no one is now fighting over the DA, or possibly claiming ownership, why can't the IG request the release of the real DA, from the Family who owns the copyright? This would allow the reestablishment of Community access to the real DA, as before, for those who have attended retreats.

Perhaps a copy of the Digital Archive could be established, at any Gar or Ling that wanted one. A local endowment could be set up to allow the DA to be re-copied every 4 years if kept on computers, or every 75 years if kept on archival DVDs. Note; the life of hard drives is 5 years and the life of Archival DVDs is 100 years.

The Digital Archive needs to be thematically cataloged, and harmonized with a master list of all the retreats. This list does not currently exist. Where there are retreats that are missing or having gaps in the recordings, the attendees of the original retreat need to be contacted so as to allow for obtaining copies of the original tapes of the retreat. These need to be digitized and added to the archives.

This should be done soonest, so that this can be accomplished before the original tapes are lost forever.

I fear that there are many retreats that are not in the archives in total, because the originals were lost at Merigar. I also fear that many retreats are only partially in the archive because the original tapes sent to Merigar, were stored in conditions of extremes of heat and cold which damaged the tapes.

The complete Digital Archive could be transcribed and edited to support practice. It is clear that this responsibility needs to be addressed in collaboration with SSI, as they appear to be in real need of our support and collaboration. It appears that SSI is keeping the list of what retreats they have in the archive a secret, and also keeping secret as to which of these have been transcribed/ edited. The appearance is that they are doing this out of shame over how few of the 600 retreats have been transcribed and edited. It also appears that they are not releasing unedited transcripts that would be of great help to many practitioners as these are the unedited words of Rinpoche which many enjoy to hear and read.

SSI clearly needs help and Community support in this very worthwhile project. Having most of the transcripts (unedited and edited) available only to the transcription team is not ideal.

6. What is a good way to allow for the discussion of both practice questions and all other issues among all the practitioners / Members in the Dzogchen Community?

It is suggested that there be a vetted discussion website where all of the issues facing the future of the IDC can be discussed. Dharma Wheel, while serving some of the functions of this proposed site, is not a solution, because members of the IDC do not moderate it.

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=4052

Norbunet serves the purpose of timely advisories, and the Mirror serves the purpose of sharing larger articles. Norbunet and The Mirror cannot be this forum because they are perhaps, too strictly moderated. This was fine while the IDC was led by an Enlightened Master, but perhaps is no longer appropriate at this time. It is suggested that there be a new discussion site where Members can discuss issues facing the IDC in a safe and supportive environment. This would be a closed site for Members only, with a sign-in, user name and password to protect access.

Sangha does not allow discussions of issues by a subject thread.

Perhaps a different closed site, also moderated by the IDC, could address questions about practice.

Until a new website is running, Dharma Wheel can be used as a resource to openly discuss issues of concern to the IDC and a place where open-level practice questions will be answered by old-timers.

7. A review and possible re-writing of the Statutes and Membership Agreements of the IDC is called for, given the changing circumstances of the IDC. In particular, it is requested that all Gars and Lings submit a motion to the IG suggesting a change if there is a statute that requires voting Members to be physically present at the annual meeting to vote. This could be replaced by a statute that allows for all authenticated voting Members to vote on issues, on the Internet, after being authenticated with their IDC User Name and Password.
As a separate item within the task of rewriting the Statutes, in the Internet age, it is possible to have line item voting where every major decision made by the IG would be backed up by a timely vote of the entire Membership after a free and open discussion of the issues. This would be a tremendous advance in the application of democratic principles within the IDC.

The key point is that the top-down hierarchical management structures, that were appropriate while there was an Enlightened Master at the top, are no longer appropriate to the equally qualified Member circumstances that we face now. Observing ourselves and the social / management structures, and what works and what doesn't, will allow us to collaborate effectively and move forward in a good way.

Perhaps a new “Statute Review Commission”, appointed by the IG, and made up of representatives of all stakeholders in the Community could be asked to review the Statutes and Membership Agreements of the IDC and recommend changes to the IG for Member approval at the next Annual Meeting.

8. Given the open availability, on the web, of voluminous Dzogchen resources, perhaps it is short-sighted in the Internet age to restrict Member access to any published Dzogchen texts and practices.
Perhaps it would be far better to provide a clear and understandable explanation of the principles as to why books and practice materials are self-restricted and are self-secret. Then newcomers would have a way to take responsibility, and decide for themselves, what level of books and practice materials are appropriate for their circumstances. Having all the written transcripts of all the retreats and the books of ChNNR available in searchable electronic form, online, for Members only, would be a great support of practice to all those following the Teachings of ChNNR.

Also given the fact that both European and US copyright lasts only 70 years, perhaps, after 70 years, everything will be online for free, but without the explanations as to why things are self-restricted and self-secret. Looking ahead, perhaps it is more beneficial to future practitioners to offer these explanations now.
Offering Dzogchen practice paths, leading to obtaining DI and permissions to practice each of the Secondary Practices through transmission from authentic lineage holders, would allow many more present and future students of ChNNR to obtain the profound benefits of these rare and most special Dzogchen Teachings.

It should be noted that the following resources are available online.

A. Google search on free “dzogchen.pdf”.
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACY ... CAc&uact=5
B. Free academic papers on Dzogchen (and the list is growing every day):
https://www.academia.edu/people/search? ... q=dzogchen
C. Very large quantity (>248,000) of unrestricted books and resources are for sale on the web on Dzogchen:

It should be noted that even Togyal and Yangtig (Dark Retreat) materials are being openly published.
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f ... 80#p101351
Also, the TBRC offers online, for free, all of the classical Tibetan texts on Dzogchen. Why should someone who knows Tibetan be more privileged to read about Dzogchen Yang Ti than those who do not know Tibetan?
https://www.tbrc.org/#!search
https://www.tbrc.org/#library_BannerSea ... ng+ti"

Anyone receiving Dzogchen Transmission from ChNNR has a heart commitment to preserve and protect that Transmission. This includes the Direct Introduction Transmission and the Transmission of each of the Secondary Practices received.

If one observes the before covid retreat pictures on

http://melong.com/

the success (lack of success) of the current structural teaching modal of the IDC can be easily seen. When one subtracts out the “management and instructor attendees”, it is easy to see how many new and old practitioners were being reached by the current modal.


I understand that everyone is doing their best: perhaps we can do better.

For those of you who want to participate in active collaboration to preserve the precious Transmission of DI and the Secondary Practices of ChNNR, perhaps, now is the time to actively collaborate among ourselves with openhearted goodwill and achieve something meaningful with our lives to keep the transmission alive.

There is much to be done! Isn’t it wonderful!

:heart:
PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

oldbob wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:49 pm I don't know - my horse (goodwill and hope for the Dzogchen Community) is alive and well.
You have no evidence that the DC can or will do anything to support the continuation of ChNNr’s termas. Despite years of talk nothing has changed. And the DC, frankly, cannot do anything, because it is an organization, not a person, and people give teachings, not organizations; and because as it has repeatedly said, that’s not its function.

So yes, the horse is dead.
I encourage everyone of goodwill towards ChNN and the DC to share ideas and collaborate.
You perhaps haven’t noticed but people have said, repeatedly, the only way in which this will work: one of ChNNr’s students will decide to offer the empowerments received from him. Then others will need to examine that person and decide whether they are capable of and qualified to give those empowerments. Not many are.

That’s really it. Everything else is just more pointless discussion.
If anyone has ill will towards ChNN and the continuation of his Transmission Lineage, maybe they should examine their motivation before speaking.
Perhaps you should listen and reflect a bit before writing your next thesis. Don’t accuse people of ill will because they happen to disagree with you.
oldbob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

Dear International Gakyil,

Working with circumstances, It is proposed that the International Dzogchen Community allow regular and easy Direct Introduction from the living spirit of ChNN through recordings of ChNN giving the World Wide Transmission, and Lung authorizations from the recordings of ChNN for all of the Teachings including the Longsal.

The Direct Introduction could be given every Saturday at noon, Merigar time, and the long Lung readings be given several times a year on special days.

Perhaps all “Enlightened Students” could be invited to simultaneously read along with the recordings so that those who require Direct Introduction and Lung reading authority from a live master would be satisfied.

This will allow the Transmission Lineage to survive and the IDC to prosper.

Most sincerely,

Bob Kragen

:heart:
Toenail
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Toenail »

oldbob wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:19 pm Dear International Gakyil,

Working with circumstances, It is proposed that the International Dzogchen Community allow regular and easy Direct Introduction from the living spirit of ChNN through recordings of ChNN giving the World Wide Transmission, and Lung authorizations from the recordings of ChNN for all of the Teachings including the Longsal.

The Direct Introduction could be given every Saturday at noon, Merigar time, and the long Lung readings be given several times a year on special days.

Perhaps all “Enlightened Students” could be invited to simultaneously read along with the recordings so that those who require Direct Introduction and Lung reading authority from a live master would be satisfied.

This will allow the Transmission Lineage to survive and the IDC to prosper.

Most sincerely,

Bob Kragen

:heart:
Is this satire?
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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Josef »

oldbob wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:19 pm Dear International Gakyil,

Working with circumstances, It is proposed that the International Dzogchen Community allow regular and easy Direct Introduction from the living spirit of ChNN through recordings of ChNN giving the World Wide Transmission, and Lung authorizations from the recordings of ChNN for all of the Teachings including the Longsal.

The Direct Introduction could be given every Saturday at noon, Merigar time, and the long Lung readings be given several times a year on special days.

Perhaps all “Enlightened Students” could be invited to simultaneously read along with the recordings so that those who require Direct Introduction and Lung reading authority from a live master would be satisfied.

This will allow the Transmission Lineage to survive and the IDC to prosper.

Most sincerely,

Bob Kragen

:heart:
Or unenlightened but sincere students of CHNN can independently transmit his teachings to interested students just like countless others before them.
The transmission aspect of the DC has been rendered largely irrelevant by the DC. Rinpoche's lineage transmission is in the hands of his students without being conditioned by the institution he founded and that is just fine. We don't really need the DC for that purpose.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

oldbob wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:19 pmDirect Introduction from the living spirit of ChNN through recordings of ChNN giving the World Wide Transmission
Bob - I wish this were possible but it’s not. It’s an empowerment, it can’t be received from a recording.
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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Josef »

Toenail wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:25 pm
oldbob wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:19 pm Dear International Gakyil,

Working with circumstances, It is proposed that the International Dzogchen Community allow regular and easy Direct Introduction from the living spirit of ChNN through recordings of ChNN giving the World Wide Transmission, and Lung authorizations from the recordings of ChNN for all of the Teachings including the Longsal.

The Direct Introduction could be given every Saturday at noon, Merigar time, and the long Lung readings be given several times a year on special days.

Perhaps all “Enlightened Students” could be invited to simultaneously read along with the recordings so that those who require Direct Introduction and Lung reading authority from a live master would be satisfied.

This will allow the Transmission Lineage to survive and the IDC to prosper.

Most sincerely,

Bob Kragen

:heart:
Is this satire?
Hard to tell
I have read most of Bob's posts in this thread as of late as satire.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Norwegian
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Norwegian »

oldbob wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:19 pm Dear International Gakyil,

Working with circumstances, It is proposed that the International Dzogchen Community allow regular and easy Direct Introduction from the living spirit of ChNN through recordings of ChNN giving the World Wide Transmission, and Lung authorizations from the recordings of ChNN for all of the Teachings including the Longsal.

The Direct Introduction could be given every Saturday at noon, Merigar time, and the long Lung readings be given several times a year on special days.

Perhaps all “Enlightened Students” could be invited to simultaneously read along with the recordings so that those who require Direct Introduction and Lung reading authority from a live master would be satisfied.

This will allow the Transmission Lineage to survive and the IDC to prosper.

Most sincerely,

Bob Kragen

:heart:
I am not sure for how long you've been a student of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, but it cannot have been for that long. A day or two perhaps? Alternatively, maybe you really are a long-time student of Rinpoche, but the consequence of that is that you actually never bothered to listen to and understand the words of Rinpoche. Or, what's more, maybe you actually did hear his words, but you simply don't care what he said, for some strange reason. Maybe you think you know better than Rinpoche?

Why do I say this? Because Rinpoche again and again and again and again and again over and over and over and over and over all the time kept repeating certain things, such as how you cannot receive transmission, empowerment, etc. from recordings, and how you cannot receive these things from books. You must receive them from a qualified teacher.

The fact that Rinpoche said these things, and you claim to be a student of Rinpoche, and the fact that you keep repeating these things, and others here on this forum points out to you again and again that you're simply mistaken, and that Rinpoche never accepted what you're suggesting, and you still to this day keep repeating these things, leads me to believe that you have some serious problems. What those problems are, I don't know, but you have them.

So please stop saying these things. It's not what Rinpoche taught.
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Norwegian wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:52 pm I am not sure for how long you've been a student of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, but it cannot have been for that long.
Matthias, Bob was there at the big bang. The first time ChNN ever came to the US.
Norwegian
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Norwegian »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:05 pm
Norwegian wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:52 pm I am not sure for how long you've been a student of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, but it cannot have been for that long.
Matthias, Bob was there at the big bang. The first time ChNN ever came to the US.
All the more puzzling that Bob keeps suggesting things Rinpoche said we cannot and should not do, in virtually all of his retreats and books. I too want for us all to move ahead in a positive way, but it must be done according to the teachings, we cannot just invent things, merely because we feel like it.

So why then the insistence on doing something Rinpoche said we shouldn't do? It baffles me.

Maybe it's satire as others have suggested?
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Josef
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Josef »

Norwegian wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:25 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:05 pm
Norwegian wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:52 pm I am not sure for how long you've been a student of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, but it cannot have been for that long.
Matthias, Bob was there at the big bang. The first time ChNN ever came to the US.
All the more puzzling that Bob keeps suggesting things Rinpoche said we cannot and should not do, in virtually all of his retreats and books. I too want for us all to move ahead in a positive way, but it must be done according to the teachings, we cannot just invent things, merely because we feel like it.

So why then the insistence on doing something Rinpoche said we shouldn't do? It baffles me.

Maybe it's satire as others have suggested?
The dream form had to have been a joke.
I feel like Bob is using humor to highlight how ridiculous all of this is.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
oldbob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

Dear all and All,

Perhaps ChNN said over and over that we have to be aware and work with circumstances.

Perhaps, in the present circumstances, the rules that made sense and applied while ChNN was with us, no longer apply.

Perhaps, as was mentioned on DW recently, ChNN also said different things to different people at different times.

I was present, twice, when he was asked if it was OK to take Lung from a recording, and both times he did not say yes or no, but instead rolled his eyes up and went into contemplation.

My interpretation of this is that it depends on circumstances, and there is no yes or no answer.

Also, several famous Lamas are now allowing Lung from recordings.

Everyone agrees that ChNN received Teachings through dreams.

Everyone agrees that the omniscient Longchenpa gave initiations and Teachings to the Rigdzin Jigme Lingpa through dreams and visions.

These stories are reliably translated and told in:

"Apparitions of the Self: The Secret Autobiographies of a Tibetan Visionary- A Translation and Study of Jigme Lingpa's Dancing Moon in the Water and Dakki's Grand Secret Talk"

Who today in the Dzogchen Community is so realized that they can challenge someone’s claim that they have received permission in a dream from ChNN?

And so the “dream form” is both true as completely ridiculous from within the dimension of someone who is shaped by a strict and literal interpretation of the words of the past of ChNN and, at the same time, the dream form is also a new and completely valid way of presenting a “permission” to those who are not bound by past rules and past circumstances. Both ideas are true at the same time.

It is a little like the "shoes on the alter" story. Those who exactly abide by the words and rules of Rinpoche achieve great merit and perhaps those who working with circumstances – modify those rules, also achieve great merit.

Perhaps the protectors are there to ensure that there are no roadblocks to those who seek the Teachings of the holy Dharma. There needs to be a way to both respect the rules of the past and also to adapt them to current circumstances. Hence the idea that it is OK to have DI and Lung from recordings if “Enlightened Students” are reading along to satisfy the “live” requirement.

Kindness matters.

Here what matters is that someone who is a sincere seeker and who wants to follow all of the Teachings of ChNN should have valid access and full confidence that they have received true permission to study and practice all the Teachings.

Then the question between me and myself is what is my responsibility and obligation to pass on the Transmission Lineage. So I am writing a lot of ideas and also taking action to do what I can to ask the Dzogchen Community to look at and discuss these issues.

How to achieve the preservation of the Transmission Lineage is on the table.

https://www.tsegyalgar.org/tsegyalgar-e ... -practice/

While this is an excellent offering for newcomers, is this how Dzogchen was taught by ChNN?

ChNN never limited anyone and taught Dzogchen directly and fully from the very beginning.

At the end of each retreat, he gave all the Lung authorizations as requested.

In the past, anyone seeking an entrance to Dzogchen – received this full authentic transmission.

Can we do less today?

So it is up to you, dear reader, to contact your Gakyil and the IG and ask them to set up Zoom meetings to discuss these issues.

If we do not do our best to make all of the Teachings of ChNN regularly and easily available – how are we fulfilling our obligation to ChNN and to the Teachings?

With all best wishes, Bob Kragen

:heart:
Last edited by oldbob on Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

oldbob wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:36 pm

Who today in the Dzogchen Community is so realized that they can challenge someone’s claim that they have received permission in a dream from ChNN?
We are not going to challenge it, but it is unlikely we will believe it.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

oldbob wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:36 pm
My interpretation of this is that it depends on circumstances, and there is no yes or no answer.

Well your writing the rules for the Dream DC so keep on interpreting. Clearly this is an important aspect of the 3'rd component of the Dream DC, which is the worship servers, digital hardware, etc. But perhaps you should document your correspondences with the ALL about this for rest of us all.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by arsent »

Norwegian wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:52 pm
oldbob wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:19 pm Dear International Gakyil,

Working with circumstances, It is proposed that the International Dzogchen Community allow regular and easy Direct Introduction from the living spirit of ChNN through recordings of ChNN giving the World Wide Transmission, and Lung authorizations from the recordings of ChNN for all of the Teachings including the Longsal.

The Direct Introduction could be given every Saturday at noon, Merigar time, and the long Lung readings be given several times a year on special days.

Perhaps all “Enlightened Students” could be invited to simultaneously read along with the recordings so that those who require Direct Introduction and Lung reading authority from a live master would be satisfied.

This will allow the Transmission Lineage to survive and the IDC to prosper.

Most sincerely,

Bob Kragen

:heart:
I am not sure for how long you've been a student of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, but it cannot have been for that long. A day or two perhaps? Alternatively, maybe you really are a long-time student of Rinpoche, but the consequence of that is that you actually never bothered to listen to and understand the words of Rinpoche. Or, what's more, maybe you actually did hear his words, but you simply don't care what he said, for some strange reason. Maybe you think you know better than Rinpoche?

Why do I say this? Because Rinpoche again and again and again and again and again over and over and over and over and over all the time kept repeating certain things, such as how you cannot receive transmission, empowerment, etc. from recordings, and how you cannot receive these things from books. You must receive them from a qualified teacher.

The fact that Rinpoche said these things, and you claim to be a student of Rinpoche, and the fact that you keep repeating these things, and others here on this forum points out to you again and again that you're simply mistaken, and that Rinpoche never accepted what you're suggesting, and you still to this day keep repeating these things, leads me to believe that you have some serious problems. What those problems are, I don't know, but you have them.

So please stop saying these things. It's not what Rinpoche taught.

Who is the person that could be named as "qualified teacher"?. Can you please collaborate also on that for us?
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