Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

[heart]

Would you do endorse for example kim "rimpoche" if he decided to give empowerment?

He been doing that, like a lot.

/magnus

[oldbob]

Dear all and Al,

I am a big fan of silliness in the face of not being able to do anything effective to remedy this, or any other seemingly hopeless situation. At the risk of shouting "THEATER" in a crowded fire, on April 1 I sent out the following to the IG and all the Gars and Lings.

So in the spirit of being an April fool --- just kidding folks!


______________________________________

April 1, 2021,


Dear all and ALL,



The daffodils are out, the birds are sweetly singing. Soon everything will be green again. Yet I am saddened by the fact that the precious ship Dzogchen is being damaged by the individuals who are entrusted with its preservation.



The new guidelines as to what can be taught from the ATIF and the new FAQs from the IDC are in contrast, and even in direct opposition, to the clear words and teachings of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu (ChNN) as to who is authorized to teach and who can sponsor that teaching.



Kindly logic demands, and the clear words of ChNN state, that anyone who has completed a practice, can teach that practice. Recent legal rulings of the IDC and the ATIF state otherwise. In the context of the responsibility of preserving the precious ship Dzogchen, this is silly.



What to do? These facts, combined with the lack of regular and easy provisioning of Direct Introduction and Lung Reading Authorization, mean that those who are guiding the precious ship Dzogchen need help.



The single, and at-risk, Digital Archive is no longer available to individual members. There is not even a comprehensive Key-Word-Index or Table-of-Contents for the Digital and Transcript Archives. This means that those who are entrusted with these responsibilities need help.



It is up to the Gars and Lings to provide that help. The mindsets, and dimensions of the current board members are clear. To fix this you can suggest that the current board members resign and that new board members be elected through a democratic process after an open and thorough airing and discussion of kindness and accessibility issues. Or you can do nothing. Doing nothing is silly.



It is up to you.



Each year we see the numbers of Members go down and this saddens me. I am sad because I believe that the Transmission Lineage of the precious ship Dzogchen Teachings could be of benefit to all of humanity. I think we all agree on this. Yet the time, money, and energy of the Community are going into encouraging group practices for a very few and creating hierarchical teaching permission social structures that are NOT connected with Transmission. This loss is really sad for future generations. It is clear that the Transmission Lineage of ChNN is dying. Passively allowing this is silly.



Without Transmission, the Dzogchen Community is the same as any other social club. The Dzogchen Community is turning into a rule-based social club, with a few Instructors teaching a few of the 100+ Secondary Practices. I don’t think that this is what newcomers are looking for when they contact the IDC or ATIF. I don’t think that having a social club was the intention of ChNN or of the Dzogchen Masters of the past. Dzogchen is for realization. In the face of the 650+ Teaching events including 100+ Secondary Practices, creating a limited social club is silly.



Therefore, as of today, it is proposed:



Because the Dzogchen Teachings belong to all of humanity, not just to the members of the IDC and the followers of the ATIF, it is proposed that a social / teaching structure be envisioned and constructed to reflect this. It is proposed that this be called, “The Transmission Lineage of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.” Within this new social structure, the following guidelines apply:



1. Free and equal access to all the written and recorded Dzogchen Teachings of ChNN for all who are sincerely interested. It must be recognized that in the internet age, that all “Secret Teachings” are now open and there are no more secrets. Google: “Dzogchen.pdf” and you will find 492,000 free resources on Dzogchen. Isn’t it better to put everything online with links to living lineage holders?



2. Create a means of access to the living lineage holders of the 100+ Secondary practices of ChNN so that seekers can obtain living Transmission and carry on the living practice of Dzogchen. Limiting access only to the few SMS instructors who are still teaching, and the few practices they teach, is silly.



3. There should be an open forum so that the questions of newcomers can be answered by qualified lineage holders. Not allowing open discussion of newcomer issues, and answers to newcomer questions, in the internet age, is silly.



4. There should be an open forum for members, moderated by elected members of the community, where all matters concerning the Community can be openly and responsibly discussed. The “Sangha” app has been working on this for a long time. Not allowing posting of documents or allowing “thread” discussion of issues on Sangha is silly. Sangha needs to have a Dharma Wheel type of section, with its thread access style, for all individual issues. This should be available to all who have received Direct Introduction from any Dzogchen Master.



5. Generosity should apply to access to all Teachings (live and recorded) and all Teaching / practice materials. All publishing for practitioners should be included within the Principle of Generosity.



6. The first priority for the Transmission Lineage is the preservation of a living Transmission for Direct Introduction and all of the Secondary practices. The second priority is the physical preservation of the Digital Archive and the Transcription Archive for all of the future. Not allowing backup copies of the Archives at the Gars and Lings is silly.



7. The idea of the first year of “mourning” came from the family. Perhaps the second and third years of “mourning” came from only a few old-timers who wanted to suppress discussion of issues to allow time for the establishment of their own power and market share. Waiting for three years before discussing the issues of the Dzogchen Community, while new members go elsewhere, is silly.



8. Perhaps an individual's offering to give Direct Introduction, with many difficult caveats, and without giving, or allowing, the Lung Reading Authorizations, is silly. Anyone seeking to give DI within the Dzogchen Community should be also be requested to agree to give regular Direct Introduction and Lung Reading Authorization on the web, as ChNN most generously did many, many, many times. Otherwise, it gives the appearance that management is just providing a regular connection to 300 more contact possibilities for private social activities not connected with the Dzogchen Community. This is silly.



Suffering is never silly. The potential for realization is never silly. ChNN was rarely silly and there always was a base of great kindness beyond limits - behind it.



Respectfully submitted to the members of the IDC and followers of the ATIF,



And



Happy April Fool’s Day to all,
The silly old man,

Bob Kragen

[Damchö_Dorje]

I am Norbu Rinpoche's student, through the webcast, relatively late in his life (November 2016).

I have wondered whether to be affiliated with DC, because I have come across conflicting information re: if it is required for samaya reasons. Sometimes the language has been that people in the Community have received teachings that affiliation is required.

I have not been able to access restricted texts because of lacking an ID. Part of me feels like these obstacles are important or an aspect of working with circumstances.

From the standpoint of someone confused about the DC, it seems like the teaching that individuals work with circumstances is significant at this time.

I don't know what to make of the idea that each of us holds the lineage vis-à-vis the situation in the DC. Would the standards for a teacher's emergence in other organizations and schools be applicable, or is Norbu Rinpoche's legacy categorically different?

It seems like there are important obstacles present at various levels. How can any one of us know how to proceed together or apart, or together in a more distributed or fragmented sense?

I hope none of this is untoward, I have much to learn since I wasn't present to witness DC history unfold and am isolated from vajra siblings.

[krodha]

I am Norbu Rinpoche's student, through the webcast, relatively late in his life (November 2016).

I have wondered whether to be affiliated with DC, because I have come across conflicting information re: if it is required for samaya reasons. Sometimes the language has been that people in the Community have received teachings that affiliation is required.

If you received transmission you’re inextricably affiliated with the lineage, which is the only affiliation that really matters.

You have no obligation to be affiliated with the DC organization.

[Sādhaka]

There was recent talk of ‘anti-vaxx’ sentiment within the Dzogchen Community; and I can get with that. I’m totally fine with it.

However SMS instructors & students denying rebirth (as opposed to being simply agnostic regarding it), or equating the Natural State with “universal consciousness”? That’s beyond silly.

I mean if you want to practice both Dzogchen and Samkhya, in separate sessions, to see if they possibly lead to the same fruition (or to see if they are totally different) is one thing; but don’t mix things up, especially if you’re a SMS instructor, right?

This is the kind of talk that i dont find helpful at all. Talking about sms instructors(or any other person for that matter) with no name and criticising them because of things the supposely said or believe.

I understand the point of Sms not being a definitive authority on matters but slandering them in the basis of he said, she said are the kind of things that made this thread lock down.

Based on my (albeit limited) observations, what Malcolm and others have said here regarding that is not completely baseless.

I’ve no intention to slander anyone here; and if anything that I’ve said is factually incorrect, then my apologies.

(P.S. To clarify, I wasn’t saying that I’m only fine with the talk of the ‘anti-vaxx’ position of some within the Dzogchen Community; but rather that I’m fine with the said position itself within the Dzogchen Community. In case I didn’t word the first paragraph of my previous post clearly enough).

[amanitamusc]

I am Norbu Rinpoche's student, through the webcast, relatively late in his life (November 2016).

I have wondered whether to be affiliated with DC, because I have come across conflicting information re: if it is required for samaya reasons. Sometimes the language has been that people in the Community have received teachings that affiliation is required.

You have no obligation to be affiliated with the DC organization.

No obligation but if he wants to get the material he needs to practice what he recieved from Rinpoche then that would be all the reason he needs to join DC.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Unless something has changed recently all one needs to purchase (restricted) stuff from SSI is transmission, not DC membership.

[krodha]

You have no obligation to be affiliated with the DC organization.

No obligation but if he wants to get the material he needs to practice what he recieved from Rinpoche then that would be all the reason he needs to join DC.

Maybe. I was with ChNN since 2008 and never officially joined DC. Sort of joined in 2015 when I visited Tenerife, but then my info was lost somehow. I eventually just resorted to notifying the Shang Shung store that i had X transmission and wanted X book via message and they’d just send it.

[amanitamusc]

Shang Shung Italy asks for your ID# and which Gar you are with and always has.AFAIK

Also Shang Shung Tsegyalgar does not have as many E books as SS Italy does.

[PeterC]

Of all the myriad Tibetan Buddhist teachers out there, there's a number of unqualified teachers who presents themselves as qualified. This is normal. We know this happens.

So, it is up to people to do the necessary work to find out if a teacher is qualified or not. This can take a very short amount of time, but it can also take many years. It's always been like this. There is much in classical literature about how a student should be, and how a teacher should be, and we are constantly urged to familiarize ourselves well with these texts, knowing what positive qualities a student and a teacher should have, and what students a teacher should avoid, and likewise what teachers a student should avoid.

And, I am sure (in fact I know) that from Chögyal Namkhai Norbu's students, some are qualified to teach Dzogchen. Whether their activities occurs under the official institutional umbrella of the name "Dzogchen Community" or not, is really not the most important thing. The most important thing is that the teachings are practiced and preserved in a qualified way. In that way ChNN's teachings will survive for a long time to come.

All in all, I think, that the DC will have to decide whether they want to support this process or not. Because this process will unfold and maturate one way or another, regardless of what the DC says, due to good practitioners and qualified teachers. And so, if those who received teachings from ChNN follows his advice of working with circumstances, and doing their best, then I think over time, things won't be as bleak as they may seem right now.

That is my hope at least.

This would be a very good note on which to close the discussion.

[Damchö_Dorje]

Thanks to those who commented. I feel calmer about my status, now, knowing the lineage and the Community are distinct.

I will probably not get any practice texts.

[GrapeLover]

Shang Shung Italy asks for your ID# and which Gar you are with and always has.AFAIK

Also Shang Shung Tsegyalgar does not have as many E books as SS Italy does.

SS Italy as in https://shop.shangshungfoundation.com/en/ ? Doesn’t ask for anything solid like that; I’m not a member and purchase restricted texts fine

[Johnny Dangerous]

Shang Shung Italy asks for your ID# and which Gar you are with and always has.AFAIK

Also Shang Shung Tsegyalgar does not have as many E books as SS Italy does.

the SSI usa store lets you put in "0000" or whatever if you are not a member of a gar or ling, which AFAIK is entirely appropriate because the texts are connected to transmission, not DC membership. I have bought a lot of stuff from them, and only paid dues for maybe half the time.

If there are any SSI stores forcing people to pay dues for restricted texts, that's crappy IMO.

[amanitamusc]

Shang Shung Italy asks for your ID# and which Gar you are with and always has.AFAIK

Also Shang Shung Tsegyalgar does not have as many E books as SS Italy does.

SS Italy as in https://shop.shangshungfoundation.com/en/ ? Doesn’t ask for anything solid like that; I’m not a member and purchase restricted texts fine

Yes this is the site i am reffering to and i stand corrected.Things have changed and they no longer ask for the ID# and Gar.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Shang Shung Italy asks for your ID# and which Gar you are with and always has.AFAIK

Also Shang Shung Tsegyalgar does not have as many E books as SS Italy does.

SS Italy as in https://shop.shangshungfoundation.com/en/ ? Doesn’t ask for anything solid like that; I’m not a member and purchase restricted texts fine

Yes this is the site i am reffering to and i stand corrected.Things have changed and they no longer ask for the ID# and Gar.

It amazes me they ever did, to be honest.

[Harimoo]

However SMS instructors & students denying rebirth (as opposed to being simply agnostic regarding it), or equating the Natural State with “universal consciousness”? That’s beyond silly.

For me, if someone tells me that he/she doesn't believe in rebirth or believes in the "universal consciousness", I would ask first to define the terms. I know well-schooled buddhists who say they don't believe in reincarnation. In India, there are anti-Shankara who consider that he had the same doctrine than Nagarjuna.

More problematic, for me, is the instructors who teach yantra yoga with wicca BS or mix teachings with new age psychology.

[Malcolm]

I know well-schooled buddhists who say they don't believe in reincarnation.

Then they are suffering from wrong view.

[Giovanni]

I am Norbu Rinpoche's student, through the webcast, relatively late in his life (November 2016).

I have wondered whether to be affiliated with DC, because I have come across conflicting information re: if it is required for samaya reasons. Sometimes the language has been that people in the Community have received teachings that affiliation is required.

If you received transmission you’re inextricably affiliated with the lineage, which is the only affiliation that really matters.

You have no obligation to be affiliated with the DC organization.

Which is a reason to be grateful.

[Harimoo]

I know well-schooled buddhists who say they don't believe in reincarnation.

Then they are suffering from wrong view.

If by reincarnation, they mean reincarnation as it is understood by theosophists, I don't think so.

[Malcolm]

If by reincarnation, they mean reincarnation as it is understood by theosophists, I don't think so.

If they deny rebirth, the continuation of a series of aggregate from this life to the next, then yes; if they merely negate an atman that takes rebirth, than no.