Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

mutsuk
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by mutsuk »

Kurp wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:18 pm and still did not receive transmission
What do you mean by this? Transmission is not intransitive in Dzogchen, so it should a transmission of... Are you referring to direct introduction?
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Virgo
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

Arnoud wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:36 pm
Virgo wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:00 am
And thanks to them I have to read this f------g thread.

Virgo
I have a hard time phrasing this properly and hope I don’t offend anyone but should not part of the blame for this disaster lie with Rinpoche himself? He could have prepared and communicated a little better on what to do after his departure, no?
We do not know precisely what Rinpoche was thinking, and that is ok.

What we do know, is what requirements are prescribed by the tantras for someone to be a teacher of Dzogchen.

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Kurp
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Kurp »

mutsuk wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:41 pm
Kurp wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:18 pm and still did not receive transmission
What do you mean by this? Transmission is not intransitive in Dzogchen, so it should a transmission of... Are you referring to direct introduction?
https://www.dzamlinggar.net/en/dzogchen ... ansmission

DIRECT TRANSMISSION



The starting point for the practice of Dzogchen is to receive a ‘Direct Transmission’ from the teacher. This ‘Direct Transmission’ is the means by which the teacher introduces us directly to the true nature of our mind: our primordial state or ‘rigpa’ (in Tibetan). Ideally, it is best to receive the ‘Direct Transmission’ from the teacher in person by attending a retreat, but since this is not always possible, Rinpoche also gives ‘Direct Transmission’ via the worldwide web. On three occasions each year, corresponding to particular anniversaries in the Dzogchen calendar, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu gives the direct transmission of Guru Yoga necessary for starting to practice.

Originally Rinpoche had the idea of 'Transmission via the Web' because he wanted to help people in difficult situations who could not travel at that time to meet the Teacher. The Transmission enables them to start to practice the Dzogchen Teachings transmitted by him without being in his direct physical presence.

Newcomers who want to participate at a World Wide Transmission should be seriously interested in the Dzogchen Teachings, which are transmitted by our Teacher Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and practiced by our worldwide Dzogchen Community. New participants at a Direct Transmission should try to receive Teachings from Chögyal Namkhai Norbu personally in the future. After having received the Transmission, they should also try to train and collaborate with the Sangha of the International Dzogchen Community of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu.

In order to learn the appropriate mantras, mudras, and melodies correctly, it is important to hear an explanation from a knowledgeable student of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu well in advance of the event. To attend a Direct Transmission, please call your regional contact at least one month before the date of the direct transmission you wish to receive, as you will need prior instructions. Dates for the transmissions can be found on the Events Calendar.
You can also receive Direct Transmission via webcast teachings. To see a list of upcoming webcast teachings, Click Here.
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climb-up
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

Oh man, I wrote a long and pointless post and now i don't know if it got deleted or if I just never successfully posted it. :rolling:
(I see that this one went up, so if it gets deleted I won't try again ...I don't think I'm saying anything controversial)

The qualifications for teaching are clear and not up for debate (and yet ... :shrug: )
There are lamas who are qualified to pass on ChNN's transmission, and will/are, and within the DC there must be a decent number of people who are in position to do the retreats and training necessary to teach and continue the teachings.

It seems like the only real option either is to bring the former into the official teaching fold, and possibly sponsor the latter to become fully fledged lamas, or for the DC sort of shrivel up as all of those who have received transmission get old and die (which, as we know, is guaranteed).

Right?
I mean, I know this has all been said before, but it seems like it really is that straightforward.
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Virgo
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

We are working with circumstances, but we are also working within circumstances. Those circumstances are what that tantras dictate, and they always have been.


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climb-up
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

Virgo wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:57 pm We are working with circumstances, but we are also working within circumstances. Those circumstances are what that tantras dictate, and they always have been.


Virgo
I'm not clear if this is responding to my post above, or just happened to come right after it (I'm also not clear on the difference you're drawing between working with and within circumstance ...aren't we always within the circumstances that we are working with?)

But wouldn't the way to work with the circumstances be to promote those who are able to continue the lineage and support those who would be able to continue the lineage in the future?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

climb-up wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:12 pm I'm not clear if this is responding to my post above, or just happened to come right after it
It's not in fact, climb-up, I wrote it the same time you were writing yours.
climb-up wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:12 pm (I'm also not clear on the difference you're drawing between working with and within circumstance ...aren't we always within the circumstances that we are working with?)
Dzogchen is very vast and lofty, but we still have to operate within a certain framework.
climb-up wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:12 pm But wouldn't the way to work with the circumstances be to promote those who are able to continue the lineage and support those who would be able to continue the lineage in the future?
In am earlier post Malcolm laid out the requirements.

If people are going to teach, they need those requirements.

I have added extra purification practices to do my daily practices since I have been participating in this strange thread.

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climb-up
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

Virgo wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:17 pm
In am earlier post Malcolm laid out the requirements.

If people are going to teach, they need those requirements.
Right, that was the point I was making.

I have added extra purification practices to do my daily practices since I have been participating in this strange thread.

Virgo
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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Kurp wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:56 pm
mutsuk wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:41 pm
Kurp wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:18 pm and still did not receive transmission
What do you mean by this? Transmission is not intransitive in Dzogchen, so it should a transmission of... Are you referring to direct introduction?
https://www.dzamlinggar.net/en/dzogchen ... ansmission
Sadly, this history is completely wrong.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

climb-up wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:56 pm
There are lamas who are qualified to pass on ChNN's transmission, and will/are,
Who?
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Kurp
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Kurp »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:23 pm
Kurp wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:56 pm
mutsuk wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:41 pm
What do you mean by this? Transmission is not intransitive in Dzogchen, so it should a transmission of... Are you referring to direct introduction?
https://www.dzamlinggar.net/en/dzogchen ... ansmission
Sadly, this history is completely wrong.
Just working with the information I (and the rest of the internet) have been given. :shrug:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by mutsuk »

Kurp wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:56 pm https://www.dzamlinggar.net/en/dzogchen ... ansmission
DIRECT TRANSMISSION
(...)
Ok, so this means direct introduction (ngo sprod). If you attended a teaching (webcast or live) during which the DI was given you have received that transmission but understanding it is different. I read somewhere some DC people saying stuff like "Oh I was there, he gave it, but actually I did not received it" and things like that. Sorry but this is nonsense. The DI is about understanding the nature of the mind. It is easy to understand if you don't expect a magic trick that is going to make you a Buddha right away because understanding Rigpa has never liberated anyone on the spot. So during DI what you should expect is to have a clear understanding of the Emptiness-Clarity of your mind. This understanding is the knowledge (rig-pa) of the natural state. Again, if you don't project unrelated expectations on this, then it is very easy to understand. In a sense, you cannot "not have received it", in particular since Rinpoche gave it in a very clear and simple way. However, to transmit that DI yourself, you need to have your understanding of it validated by the master and then obtain his formal authorization.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

UNOFFICIAL

Date: ________________________________

Dear Shang Shung Foundation,

This email is to legally certify that I have contacted ChNN in a dream and have received his permission to study and practice all of his Teachings.

I have his permission to receive a copy of the complete Digital Archive and the complete Transcript Archive in whatever condition of editing they are currently in - at the actual cost of the digital media. He said that I could have this for my practice use only and that I should not share this with anyone else, and I agree to this. He said that I should make sure that the Digital Media is returned to SSF after I have finished with it.

Please supply a quotation as to what it would cost for a copy of the digital media and for shipping to the following address:

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Sincerely yours,

Name: ___________________________________________

Gar/Ling: _________________________________________

Membership Number: _______________________________

Please send to:

[email protected]

ob:world
Last edited by oldbob on Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Virgo
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

nevermind.
Last edited by Virgo on Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

mutsuk wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:30 pm
Kurp wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:56 pm https://www.dzamlinggar.net/en/dzogchen ... ansmission
DIRECT TRANSMISSION
(...)
Ok, so this means direct introduction (ngo sprod). If you attended a teaching (webcast or live) during which the DI was given you have received that transmission but understanding it is different. I read somewhere some DC people saying stuff like "Oh I was there, he gave it, but actually I did not received it" and things like that. Sorry but this is nonsense. The DI is about understanding the nature of the mind. It is easy to understand if you don't expect a magic trick that is going to make you a Buddha right away because understanding Rigpa has never liberated anyone on the spot. So during DI what you should expect is to have a clear understanding of the Emptiness-Clarity of your mind. This understanding is the knowledge (rig-pa) of the natural state. Again, if you don't project unrelated expectations on this, then it is very easy to understand. In a sense, you cannot "not have received it", in particular since Rinpoche gave it in a very clear and simple way. However, to transmit that DI yourself, you need to have your understanding of it validated by the master and then obtain his formal authorization.
These are actually Donwangs. They originally fell on the birth anniversaries of Garab Dorje, Guru P and Adzom Drukpa, and on these days we would do gurus yogas at the time of their birth. Then, ChNN switched giving to empowerments of Garab Dorje and Padmasambhava coordinated by video on these dates, and then finally, web casts.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:23 pm
climb-up wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:56 pm
There are lamas who are qualified to pass on ChNN's transmission, and will/are,
Who?
Well, you’re one, yes?
And you’ve mentioned Adriano.
I would suspect that Lama Tsultrim Allione, as a qualified lama who has received ChNNs teachings.
I believe there are other lamas who received teachings and advice from ChNN who are not in the DC.

Am I wrong?
Do fully qualified lamas who give teachings and have also received ChNN’s transmission not exist?
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Good one, bob.

oldbob wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:32 pm UNOFFICIAL

Date: ________________________________

Dear Shang Shung Foundation,

This email is to legally certify that I have contacted ChNN in a dream and have received his permission to study and practice all of his Teachings.

I have his permission to receive a copy of the complete Digital Archive and the complete Transmission Archive in whatever condition of editing they are currently in - at the actual cost of the digital media. He said that I could have this for my practice use only and that I should not share this with anyone else, and I agree to this. He said that I should make sure that the Digital Media is returned to SSF after I have finished with it.

Please supply a quotation as to what it would cost for a copy of the digital media and for shipping to the following address:

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Sincerely yours,

Name: ___________________________________________

Gar/Ling: _________________________________________

Membership Number: _______________________________

Please send to:

[email protected]

ob:world
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

climb-up wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:34 pm
Do fully qualified lamas who give teachings and have also received ChNN’s transmission not exist?
Other than Tsultrim's few practices, and perhaps Lama Denys in France, no one who is doing with the express permission of ChNN. People who do so are taking it upon themselves to do so. It's between them and the Dharmapālas.
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climb-up
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:36 pm
climb-up wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:34 pm
Do fully qualified lamas who give teachings and have also received ChNN’s transmission not exist?
Other than Tsultrim's few practices, and perhaps Lama Denys in France, no one who is doing with the express permission of ChNN. People who do so are taking it upon themselves to do so. It's between them and the Dharmapālas.
Of course and, if they’re public it’s also between them and their students.
But didn’t you recently post here that permission to teach was a modern political innovation and not a requirement from the tantra?
If someone has received the empowerments, done the retreats and the study and has the necessary level of realization (which is obviously difficult, that’s true with any teacher right?) then they are qualified to pass on the teachings.
Is that not right?

EDIT: for example, you nominated Adriano as qualified, and I’m sure he is, but he also didn’t have ChNN’s express permission to continue ie his teachings, did he?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

climb-up wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:43 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:36 pm
climb-up wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:34 pm
Do fully qualified lamas who give teachings and have also received ChNN’s transmission not exist?
Other than Tsultrim's few practices, and perhaps Lama Denys in France, no one who is doing with the express permission of ChNN. People who do so are taking it upon themselves to do so. It's between them and the Dharmapālas.
Of course and, if they’re public it’s also between them and their students.
But didn’t you recently post here that permission to teach was a modern political innovation and not a requirement from the tantra?
If someone has received the empowerments, done the retreats and the study and has the necessary level of realization (which is obviously difficult, that’s true with any teacher right?) then they are qualified to pass on the teachings.
Is that not right?
Its not a modern innovation, per se, but the fact is that most people who start teaching do so when their guru passes away, and usually, to preserve the lineage, not promote themselves. It is ideal if one receives permission from one of one's gurus to teach. It is not necessary to receive permission from each and every one, however. Tulkus kind of have permission built in.
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