Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Harimoo wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:47 pmthe instructors who teach yantra yoga with wicca BS
"Wicca BS" is a tad offensive, you know.

Offensiveness aside: Wicca and YY, who would have guessed.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:52 pm
Harimoo wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:47 pmthe instructors who teach yantra yoga with wicca BS
"Wicca BS" is a tad offensive, you know.

Offensiveness aside: Wicca and YY, who would have guessed.
What I really want to know is whether or not they are practicing Yantra naked in the woods at night on full moons, Beltane, Samhain, etc.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:53 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:52 pm
Harimoo wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:47 pmthe instructors who teach yantra yoga with wicca BS
"Wicca BS" is a tad offensive, you know.

Offensiveness aside: Wicca and YY, who would have guessed.
What I really want to know is whether or not they are practicing Yantra naked in the woods at night on full moons, Beltane, Samhain, etc.
That would add a badly needed bit of romanticism to Yantra. Who knows, I could even be tempted to attend every now and then.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Harimoo wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:47 pm mix teachings with new age psychology.
That would probably cover somewhere in the region of 95% of Western Buddhists in my experience.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

Dear all and All,

So, what to do???

We can do better! We can do something.

Yes, there are students of ChNN who can transmit Dzogchen, and accessibility to the SSF books is getting better. So perhaps, in the fullness of time, there is no cause for concern.

In the short run, perhaps it is difficult for some, perhaps impossible for most, to afford the official practice books, and teaching materials, even if the permissions are relaxed. Making no-cost eBooks of all of the practices, for practitioners, would be a good start. Maybe a lending library at each Gar and Ling, for physical books, would also help.

The replay section of the Practicing Together site has some of the practice materials connected with the replays. This is a start, but you have to be a Member to access the replay and many cannot afford to be Members.

Applying Generosity to all practice materials and to Membership would be a good way forward.

Still, the key point is that there needs to be a way forward for the IDC that allows for a continuation of the Transmission Lineage.


I am 75 and my fullness of time is not so full. So, I am putting things on the table to establish a basis for discussion of how to make things better – sooner.

The goal is to find ways of allowing easier access to the Teachings of ChNN to anyone seeking them, now, through a continuation of the Transmission Lineage.

One way would be to bring in a recognized Dzogchen Master, (or Masters) from another Dzogchen lineage(s) to give DI and read the Tibetan texts for the Lung Permissions. For some, this would be ideal, and for others, not good at all because they might feel that ChNN's position as the Master of the IDC is being challenged. So, I guess that this solution would depend on finding someone who is secure in their own lineage position and is not a power person looking to take over the DC. Maybe this is possible.

Another way forward would be to find an “Enlightened” student who could perform these functions. The question would then be who should make the decision as to who is now enlightened and can be the spiritual replacement for ChNN. Maybe there can be a College of Spiritual Advisors (CSA)who can decide these things. Perhaps the CSA can be selected by a simple vote of the entire DC. Maybe the role of the Enlightened Student could rotate among many Enlightened Students.

Perhaps the easiest solution is to allow a weekly Direct Introduction from the spirit of ChNNR through the use of the Guru Yoga of Garab Dorje in the format of a Worldwide transmission (WWT). This was performed by ChNN many times. Recordings of this are available, or it also would be possible to have a senior student lead the practice.

Leadership could rotate among the senior students. All the “Enlightened” students could collaborate together to be in the same state at the time of the WWT. Then no one would be jealous or playing politics. The real-time presence of the Enlightened Students would overcome the objections of those who do not want to allow DI without a recognized Master being present.

The idea of taking a Direct Introduction from the spirit of a dead Master is not an invention and is an accepted part of the Tibetan system. Direct Introduction transmission was received by the enlightened Jigme Lingpa from the Omniscient Longchenpa. This is widely accepted.

Many Masters, including ChNN, received Teachings through dreams and visions. If someone says they have received permission from ChNN in a dream to have access to read and practice all of his Teachings, who can counter this? Then no one can stop someone else from having access to all the Teachings.

Perhaps this is not a new idea. We can all ask for permission and relate this permission to the SSF "protectors." Then everyone can have permission to access the complete Digital Archive and Transcript Archive.

If it was also allowed to have the transmission of the Lung readings from the recordings of ChNNR, then there is a complete system of permissions that would respect the old Tibetan traditions while giving easy access to new practitioners.

Perhaps if “Enlightened Students” in the lineage of ChNN were present at the time of the reading of the Lung by an unenlightened Tibetologist (or Tibetan), perhaps this would satisfy those who need to feel they are receiving the Lung from an Enlightened Master.

The key point is that there needs to be a way forward – now – that allows for a continuation of the Transmission Lineage through easy and regular Direct introductions, and Lung Reading Authorizations, combined with easy access to lineage holders and teaching materials.

The IG, Local Gakyils, and "Enlightened Students" have not yet come forward to allow this.

Some individuals have made has made up, and published, ideas that did not originate with ChNN, and acted to suppress discussion of the issues. Instructors, at best, teach a few of the Secondary Practices to a few interested old students, and some demand that the issues are not discussed. An individual who certainly has been accused, by many, of mixing up Dharma with new-age buzz-words is being allowed to teach at Merigar, and perhaps elsewhere.

Allowing the current mess, the appearance is that management, and others, are actively trying to have the DC fail. This is sad and can be worked with if there are actual “Enlightened Students” within the DC. If there are "Enlightened Students" maybe now is a good time to appear.

Allowing full and open access to the Digital Archive and Transcription Archive would be a positive step to bring the entire Dzogchen Community back into contact with the direct Teachings of ChNN.

While a one-time synod is a start to clear the air, what is needed is mutual respect among Management and the Members that allows for an ongoing, moderated creative dialog about the issues. This could be moderated Zoom conferences. Perhaps a professional social scientist facilitator could run these conferences so as to identify areas of agreement and allow an acceptable consensus to be formed. The New York Ling successfully used this method to allow for the resolution of a thorny and contentious issue.

Current management does not seem interested in this. Maybe we need new management.

If the Sangha app will not provide a safe place, for an open and restricted discussion of issues perhaps a dedicated, password-protected area in DW might be possible. Access could be restricted to those who have had a Direct Introduction from an acknowledged Dzogchen Master, or by recommendation, as on Sangha.

With the hope that a moderated Zoom discussion of these issues will lead to a good way forward, I am submitting these issues to the entire IDC for discussion.

Recognizing the shortcomings of the instructors and the new agers, isn’t it time to create a rebirth for the Transmission Lineage of the Dzogchen Community based on equal access to the direct Teachings and the unlimitedopen-hearted kindness of ChNN.

:heart:

So have courage and do something useful. If enough people write to the IG perhaps they will listen.

We can start by requesting a moderated dialog about the issues on open Zoom conferences.

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

If the IG does not listen / change, perhaps we can collaborate to start a new Dzogchen Community to ensure that the Transmission Lineage endures.


:heart:

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Giovanni »

I think you are very optimistic Bob..which is a good thing.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Hi Bob:
oldbob wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:20 pm
One way would be to bring in a recognized Dzogchen Master, (or Masters) from another Dzogchen lineage(s) to give DI and read the Tibetan texts for the Lung Permissions.
This has been suggested and already discarded.

This was performed by ChNN many times. Recordings of this are available, or it also would be possible to have a senior student lead the practice.
Rinpoche stated innumerable times that one could not receive direct introduction from a recording.

If someone says they have received permission from ChNN in a dream to have access to read and practice all of his Teachings, who can counter this? Then no one can stop someone else from having access to all the Teachings.
No one will believe them.

If it was also allowed to have the transmission of the Lung readings from the recordings of ChNNR,
Rinpoche also said countless times, "No lungs from recordings."
The key point is that there needs to be a way forward – now – that allows for a continuation of the Transmission Lineage through easy and regular Direct introductions, and Lung Reading Authorizations, combined with easy access to lineage holders and teaching materials.
I personally think the only way forward is for Adriano to accept responsibility for giving transmissions and empowerments, especially of the Longsal teachings. I have personally told him this. I think he is the most qualified person to do so.

That's my 2 cents.

M
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:36 pm Hi Bob:
oldbob wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:20 pm
The key point is that there needs to be a way forward – now – that allows for a continuation of the Transmission Lineage through easy and regular Direct introductions, and Lung Reading Authorizations, combined with easy access to lineage holders and teaching materials.
I personally think the only way forward is for Adriano to accept responsibility for giving transmissions and empowerments, especially of the Longsal teachings. I have personally told him this. I think he is the most qualified person to do so.

That's my 2 cents.

M
And we sadly missed the Elio oportunity due to covid
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Tata1 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:06 pm

And we sadly missed the Elio oportunity due to covid
Yeah, before he passed I had felt like Elio was the person that resonated with me the most, I’m sad that he’s gone and that it never became a possibility.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:36 pm
I personally think the only way forward is for Adriano to accept responsibility for giving transmissions and empowerments, especially of the Longsal teachings. I have personally told him this. I think he is the most qualified person to do so.

That's my 2 cents.

M
An excellent idea. I hope he have the courage.

/magnus
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Aloke »

heart wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:35 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:36 pm
I personally think the only way forward is for Adriano to accept responsibility for giving transmissions and empowerments, especially of the Longsal teachings. I have personally told him this. I think he is the most qualified person to do so.

That's my 2 cents.

M
An excellent idea. I hope he have the courage.

/magnus
It would be amazing! A good and fair solution! I hope so too. There's got to be a way!
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:53 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:52 pm
Harimoo wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:47 pmthe instructors who teach yantra yoga with wicca BS
"Wicca BS" is a tad offensive, you know.

Offensiveness aside: Wicca and YY, who would have guessed.
What I really want to know is whether or not they are practicing Yantra naked in the woods at night on full moons, Beltane, Samhain, etc.
It’s very important to respect the transmission and uphold its purity. You can’t just sacrifice a goat and call yourself a Wiccan. People need to know that anyone leading midnight ceremonial orgies has been properly authorized by their master, and that there has been sufficient discussion in the community of witches and wizards such that a consensus has been reached on who exactly is authorized to transmit the different parts of this practice.

I mean - you can’t just go beyond limitations arbitrarily, you need to do so in a consensus-driven, properly-regulated way.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Dorje Shedrub »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:25 pm
Tata1 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:06 pm

And we sadly missed the Elio oportunity due to covid
Yeah, before he passed I had felt like Elio was the person that resonated with me the most, I’m sad that he’s gone and that it never became a possibility.
Me too.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

PeterC wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:44 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:53 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:52 pm

"Wicca BS" is a tad offensive, you know.

Offensiveness aside: Wicca and YY, who would have guessed.
What I really want to know is whether or not they are practicing Yantra naked in the woods at night on full moons, Beltane, Samhain, etc.
It’s very important to respect the transmission and uphold its purity. You can’t just sacrifice a goat and call yourself a Wiccan. People need to know that anyone leading midnight ceremonial orgies has been properly authorized by their master, and that there has been sufficient discussion in the community of witches and wizards such that a consensus has been reached on who exactly is authorized to transmit the different parts of this practice.

I mean - you can’t just go beyond limitations arbitrarily, you need to do so in a consensus-driven, properly-regulated way.
Now this is too much. Way too much.

Wiccanism is vegan these days, or at the very least vegetarian. Has been for ages. Goats are to be cherished, loved and held.

What has become of Buddhists at DW. O tempora, o mores...
Générosité de l’invisible.
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Le critère est l’hospitalité.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by PeterC »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:39 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:44 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:53 pm

What I really want to know is whether or not they are practicing Yantra naked in the woods at night on full moons, Beltane, Samhain, etc.
It’s very important to respect the transmission and uphold its purity. You can’t just sacrifice a goat and call yourself a Wiccan. People need to know that anyone leading midnight ceremonial orgies has been properly authorized by their master, and that there has been sufficient discussion in the community of witches and wizards such that a consensus has been reached on who exactly is authorized to transmit the different parts of this practice.

I mean - you can’t just go beyond limitations arbitrarily, you need to do so in a consensus-driven, properly-regulated way.
Now this is too much. Way too much.

Wiccanism is vegan these days, or at the very least vegetarian. Has been for ages. Goats are to be cherished, loved and held.

What has become of Buddhists at DW. O tempora, o mores...
“Those with compassion eat meat”? Clearly the strict ethical discipline of the Wiccans is being corrupted by these Buddhists and their Bodhicitta. Baphomet would be disgusted.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

PeterC wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:49 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:39 am
PeterC wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:44 am

It’s very important to respect the transmission and uphold its purity. You can’t just sacrifice a goat and call yourself a Wiccan. People need to know that anyone leading midnight ceremonial orgies has been properly authorized by their master, and that there has been sufficient discussion in the community of witches and wizards such that a consensus has been reached on who exactly is authorized to transmit the different parts of this practice.

I mean - you can’t just go beyond limitations arbitrarily, you need to do so in a consensus-driven, properly-regulated way.
Now this is too much. Way too much.

Wiccanism is vegan these days, or at the very least vegetarian. Has been for ages. Goats are to be cherished, loved and held.

What has become of Buddhists at DW. O tempora, o mores...
“Those with compassion eat meat”? Clearly the strict ethical discipline of the Wiccans is being corrupted by these Buddhists and their Bodhicitta. Baphomet would be disgusted.
I have it on good authority he is.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by DGA »

PeterC wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:44 am [quote=Malcolm post_id=597376 time=<a href="tel:1631195585" target="_blank">1631195585</a> user_id=638]
[quote=treehuggingoctopus post_id=597364 time=<a href="tel:1631191948" target="_blank">1631191948</a> user_id=1050]
[quote=Harimoo post_id=597357 time=<a href="tel:1631188066" target="_blank">1631188066</a> user_id=6123]the instructors who teach yantra yoga with wicca BS
"Wicca BS" is a tad offensive, you know.

Offensiveness aside: Wicca and YY, who would have guessed.
[/quote]

What I really want to know is whether or not they are practicing Yantra naked in the woods at night on full moons, Beltane, Samhain, etc.
[/quote]

It’s very important to respect the transmission and uphold its purity. You can’t just sacrifice a goat and call yourself a Wiccan. People need to know that anyone leading midnight ceremonial orgies has been properly authorized by their master, and that there has been sufficient discussion in the community of witches and wizards such that a consensus has been reached on who exactly is authorized to transmit the different parts of this practice.

I mean - you can’t just go beyond limitations arbitrarily, you need to do so in a consensus-driven, properly-regulated way.
[/quote]

This is good DharmaWheel.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Sādhaka »

PeterC wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:44 amI mean - you can’t just go beyond limitations arbitrarily, you need to do so in a consensus-driven, properly-regulated way.

Well going beyond limitations would be beyond mental concepts; and consensus-driven, is often based on mental concepts.

At the same time, I agree that going beyond limitations shouldn’t be arbitrary; as arbitrariness would also be based on mental concepts.

Now if you mean properly-regulated as in following the instructions of the Lineage Masters, Sutras, and Tantras in so far as they don’t contradict one another (of course the lower is always subsumed within the higher, and also always within context) and you discover the truth of them for yourself without emotional & mental confirmation-biases; then I agree.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by climb-up »

DGA wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:40 am
It’s very important to respect the transmission and uphold its purity. You can’t just sacrifice a goat and call yourself a Wiccan. People need to know that anyone leading midnight ceremonial orgies has been properly authorized by their master, and that there has been sufficient discussion in the community of witches and wizards such that a consensus has been reached on who exactly is authorized to transmit the different parts of this practice.



This is good DharmaWheel.
:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:57 am (of course the lower is always subsumed within the higher, and also always within context)
So I guess libertarianism is basically at the śrāvaka level, politically speaking.
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