Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 2507
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:56 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:09 pm Just saw an ad on Facebook for an A. H. Almaas talk about Dzogchen: https://online.diamondapproach.org/a-h- ... ahls5-fa21

It doesn’t mention it here, but the Facebook add said that he will talk about why “Norbu’s” approach didn’t really work in the west, and there’s a great deal of misunderstanding in western students. He will apparently share how westerners can understand it more like Tibetans.

Anyone know the history here? I’ve heard of Almaas spoken about respectfully a few times in the DC, I thought I remembered hearing that he’s a student of ChNN.
Yeah I saw it too. I didn't know what to think about it. He does state that it is just intelectual analysis of the three points (which I have to ask myslef what is the point then, why not analyse some common mahayana text?) but I'd love to hear where he thinks Namkhai Norbu Went wrong. Just for the fun. :popcorn:
So terribly sad. Poor sod.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

Some yogi's may be like fire
some like the moon
but in ati yoga
all agitations are consumed

Great beings arise and then cease
appear to return nevermore
yet from that space beyond time
beings will perceive us as helping them forevermore

Bodhicitta being a seed in the heart
although agitations appear to arise
the ati yogi is liberated
from the very start

The sun shines
and the moon does too
from beyond the phenomenal world
the ati yogi creates the mountain dew


Virgo
Damchö_Dorje
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu May 27, 2021 6:49 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Damchö_Dorje »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:00 pm
ismael wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:42 pm If you think that direct introduction meant an empowerment in the eyes of CNN, that means you didn't listen very often to his webcasts
It means you listened with your ears closed.
So a direct introduction in the context of an anniversary practice would not be the rigpa'i tsal wang?

Would you say it is an authorization to practice guru yogas, such as those in the Guru Yoga book?

Would that imply samaya is not present from a direct introduction?

I am not doubting this commentary, but merely working to understand this because I have not understood.
Last edited by Damchö_Dorje on Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Damchö_Dorje wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:48 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:00 pm
ismael wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:42 pm If you think that direct introduction meant an empowerment in the eyes of CNN, that means you didn't listen very often to his webcasts
It means you listened with your ears closed.
So a direct introduction in the context of an anniversary practice would not be the rigpa'i tsal wang?

Would you say it is an authorization to practice guru yogas, such as those in the Guru Yoga book?

Would that imply samaya is not present from a direct introduction?

I am not doubting this commentary, but merely working to understand this because I have not understood.
What I am saying is that DI is an empowerment in the eyes of ChNN.
Damchö_Dorje
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu May 27, 2021 6:49 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Damchö_Dorje »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:06 pm
Damchö_Dorje wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:48 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 6:00 pm

It means you listened with your ears closed.
So a direct introduction in the context of an anniversary practice would not be the rigpa'i tsal wang?

Would you say it is an authorization to practice guru yogas, such as those in the Guru Yoga book?

Would that imply samaya is not present from a direct introduction?

I am not doubting this commentary, but merely working to understand this because I have not understood.
What I am saying is that DI is an empowerment in the eyes of ChNN.
Oh, I see. Thanks for clarifying, I misinterpreted the bent of the "ears closed" comment.
oldbob
Posts: 952
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

Dear all and All,

I don’t know!

Since all the words about Dzogchen are different than the experience of Dzogchen, isn’t it true that Dzogchen itself is never helped or harmed by words or talk? How can something that is primordially pure (without any characteristic whatever) and without cause (spontaneously arising) be harmed by words? Whatever is written on air cannot harm the air.

Words can point to Dzogchen, but that is not Dzogchen.

Words can point to harming Dzogchen. Words can point to harming the legacy of ChNN, but the legacy of ChNN cannot be harmed by words or talk.

People have different capacities and so there are many understandings of what Dzogchen is and is not.
People have different capacities and so there are many understandings of what the Transmission Lineage of ChNN is and is not.

Each understanding is exactly correct from the dimension of each individual.

Perhaps in the fullness of time – everyone will be realized. It is said that the Buddha seed dwells within everyone.

The great spiritual masters of all time taught what is appropriate for each individual. Really great Masters like ChNN taught the Dharma to all capacities at the same time.

So, at one time there were more than 4700 listening together to words about Dzogchen and having the experience of ChNN – directly. Towards the end, there were regularly 2000-4000 for each retreat.

Yesterday there were 590 listening to a live Zoom lecture about why the Dzogchen of ChNN failed from the dimension and experience of Hameed Ali, A. H. Almas.

Who can say that the teachings of Hameed Ali are lower or higher than those of ChNN?

Perhaps for some – The Dimond Way path of inquiry is more effective for spiritual progress than the Dzogchen path of ChNN.

Only an enlightened Teacher can qualify and rank spiritual progress and make judgments about which path is better suited for each practitioner. Beyond that, each individual does have the right to say what works for themselves and to choose their own spiritual path.

Only each practitioner can make that decision for themselves.

Lord Buddha taught 80,000 (means a lot of) different Teachings so there would be something for everyone.

Perhaps the Buddhist teaching of looking at a thought and deciding where that thought came from – for each thought going back in time – (all the way back) was the original Dimond Way?

Perhaps the bottom line is the Bottom Line, and so by following the money we can figure out what is happening between Hameed Ali and the Dzogchen of ChNN and can also understand the recent events within the Dzogchen Community of ChNN.

For Hameed Ali, it appeared that he was offering an alternative for disaffected students of Dzogchen and ChNN. While his few free lectures are without cost, the many expensive books and seminars of the Diamond Way are not. Sure, they have a way to ask for sponsorship, but that does not cover all of the costs. Perhaps picking up a few disaffected students of ChNN is a way of increasing the bottom line of the Diamond Way.

Hameed Ali’s Zoom presentation was very well organized and very well attended (590).
Dzogchen: Understanding Garab Dorje's Three Vital Points
A.H. Almaas (Hameed Ali)

Saturday, October 9




https://online.diamondapproach.org/dzog ... -the-west/

Hameed Ali raised some criticisms of ChNN’s approach to Dzogchen and analyzed the 3 words of Garab Dorje from an intellectual point of view. Pointing out that no one in the IDC shows full realization, he misses the key point that real Dzogchen never asks any dualistic questions. This includes questions about who can stay in instant presence 24/7. Dzogchen is content to allow the Dzogchen practitioner to “do your best.”

Instant Presence is content in itself and if distraction arises that distraction is instantly integrated into Instant Presence as it arises.

From the dualistic viewpoint of the distractions, one might say the practitioner is continuously distracted.

From the viewpoint of Instant Presence, one doesn’t say anything, and all distractions are integrated as they arise. Understanding this, there are many Students of ChNN who are completely content with Dzogchen as taught by ChNN. (Direct Introduction is an introduction into this state of being able to integrate whatever arises.)

To rephrase this because it is a little tricky to understand from outside of Dzogchen, for the Dzogchen practitioner whatever arises or doesn’t arise is perfectly OK - even what non-practitioners call distraction. If I find myself distracted my job is to immediately direct my attention back to Instant Presence - in a non-dual way. While difficult at first, applying non-dual integration to whatever arises or doesn’t arise, becomes easier and eventually automatic and effortless. This is the ongoing process of Instant Presence.

To support this process, ChNN taught over 108 Secondary Practices in over 650 retreats around the world. These teachings have been preserved in audio and video media and in books and transcripts. Originally ChNN left it up to his students to decide which of the Secondary Practices to apply. Then when many students kept asking him what they should practice, he taught the Santi Maha Sangha series of teachings for those who still had questions about what they should practice.

With its very strict practice requirements for each level and with tests in order to progress in the levels this stopped the questions about what should be practiced. This series worked for many students while ChNN was alive, but no SMS Instructor has since been willing to teach the SMS to new students or allow students to progress between levels.

Also, ChNN never said that practitioners should not do Nundro. He also incorporated teaching the views of the 9 Yana system of the old school in the SMS Base level teachings. The key point difference about Dzogchen Nundro is that you practice until you get the results of that practice – not until you satisfy an arbitrary number of repetitions.

Hameed Ali stated that the third word of Garab Dorje signifies that continuation in the state 24/7 and that he has not met anyone in the Dzogchen Community who has achieved this.

As a Dzogchen Practitioner, the question of what level I am on never arises as a thought to be followed. Such a thought has the same field of activity as any other thought or emotion. It is grist for the mill of non-dual integration, precisely the same as any other thought or emotion.

The third word of Garab Dorje, to “continue”, refers to a process of practice, not the final result of continuing in the state 24/7 or enlightenment. You continue to practice what you were introduced to in Direct Introduction, using the tools of the Secondary Practices to “Develop confidence,” the second word of Garab Dorje.

Perhaps there are thousands of students of ChNN who, understanding this, are contented practicing the Secondary Practices and are secure in their path to Enlightenment.

Then, following the money - internally to the Dzogchen Community of ChNN, we have the situation of a management structure that has ignored the 2 letters of ChNN as to who can teach, and instead has created and published strict guidelines in the FAQ section of the IG area of the IDC website.

http://dzogchencommunity.org/faqs/

See Blue #1.

When these guidelines are combined with the Guidelines for SMS Teachers in the ATIF website there is nothing that the SMS Instructors are allowed to give transmission for, and so the combination of these guidelines ensures the failure of the Transmission Lineage of the IDC, leaving the Dzogchen Community of ChNN as a school of dance and yoga. Perhaps the instructors of dance and yoga are not complaining.

The published guidelines apparently allow the same few SMS Instructors to give the same few Secondary Practices (over and over) to the same few old students who are satisfied with hearing Dzogchen presented in this way. So the few SMS Instructors who are still teaching, are not complaining.

Most recently – in fact, yesterday, there was the start of a new introductory course to the beginning practices of ChNN in a Zoom meeting, attended by 44 people - worldwide.

Perhaps ChNN did not teach Dzogchen to newcomers in this way.

Perhaps ChNN taught Direct Introduction from the first moment of contact with a new Dzogchen practitioner.

Also, perhaps the Direct Introduction of ChNN was very different from what is taught as DI today.

Perhaps the Direct Introduction of ChNN was also very different than what was taught to a recent beginner’s class at Merigar.

Then if you follow the money - and look at who benefits directly financially, and who benefits with increased fame and power as a teacher of the new beginner’s courses, then it is very clear why things are as they are.

So instead of allowing the newcomers to hear or read the direct recordings and transcripts of ChNN, we have a base level SMS Instructor, billing himself as an "Accredited SMS Instructor" -- and claiming the newcomers as their personal students.

https://www.tsegyalgar.org/tsegyalgar-e ... -practice/

Also,

https://my-hexagon.com/index.php

Perhaps we can do better, and at least allow the newcomers to hear the direct words of ChNN.

Most sincerely, Bob Kragen

:heart:
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

Hameed Ali stated that the third word of Garab Dorje signifies that continuation in the state 24/7.
He is completely wrong about that.
Sherab Rigdrol
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Sherab Rigdrol »

Hameed Ali is one of many pseudo intellectual, narcissistic elites who have created their own “spiritual system” based purely on their own delusion and has zero basis in wisdom.

I wish him nothing but the worst for trying to exploit and sully the stainless activity, love, wisdom and compassion of ChNN.
Tata1
Posts: 771
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:57 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

Sherab Rigdrol wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:43 pm Hameed Ali is one of many pseudo intellectual, narcissistic elites who have created their own “spiritual system” based purely on their own delusion and has zero basis in wisdom.

I wish him nothing but the worst for trying to exploit and sully the stainless activity, love, wisdom and compassion of ChNN.
Well you where quick on throwing boddhicitta our of the window lol. But yeah i dont even know why we discuss this kind of people. Who cares?
Sherab Rigdrol
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Sherab Rigdrol »

Yup, when it comes to slandering ChNN my faults are shown vividly.
krodha
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by krodha »

Tata1 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:11 pm
Sherab Rigdrol wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:43 pm Hameed Ali is one of many pseudo intellectual, narcissistic elites who have created their own “spiritual system” based purely on their own delusion and has zero basis in wisdom.

I wish him nothing but the worst for trying to exploit and sully the stainless activity, love, wisdom and compassion of ChNN.
But yeah i dont even know why we discuss this kind of people. Who cares?
Karma will dictate people’s involvement with Hameed and others of his ilk, but it is still fruitful to discuss these pseudo-teachers because it might offer the opportunity for someone on the fence to dodge a bullet.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

krodha wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:33 pm it is still fruitful to discuss these pseudo-teachers because it might offer the opportunity for someone on the fence to dodge a bullet.
Ouch. As I opened this I was also forensicly analysing multiple bullet holes in a pane of glass to determine which shots penetrated first for school. Not auspicious.

Virgo
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

Based on the fracture patterns and the crater effect I was able to determine which shot came first.

Virgo
krodha
Posts: 2733
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by krodha »

Virgo wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:49 pm Based on the fracture patterns and the crater effect I was able to determine which shot came first.

Virgo
Fastest gun in the west.
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 4844
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

krodha wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:53 pm
Virgo wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:49 pm Based on the fracture patterns and the crater effect I was able to determine which shot came first.

Virgo
Fastest gun in the west.
:thumbsup:

Virgo
Terma
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:07 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Terma »

Oh boy. Where to begin?

ChNN was one of my gurus and with whom I made my first real contact with Dzogchen. For that I feel so grateful and so fortunate. That said I was never involved in the IDC or attended retreats with regularity so I have always been on the outside looking in.

However, I received DI, SOV and have an unforgettable memory of that experience which formed the basis for my practice. I am forever grateful to Rinpoche.

From where I sit, far away from all of this, I think the best we can do is practice what Rinpoche taught us to the best of our ability in order to deepen our practice. I think on one hand it is helpful that there is some simple instruction going on from senior students. For example, in the past year I have been able to receive real time instruction of the beginning phases of Yantra Yoga by a certified instructor. This is wonderful. I have seen a few short retreats given on the preliminaries (Rushen) in the last while. Again, helpful. People have the ability to be able to practice with one another which Rinpoche always liked.

But obviously the real thing that is missing is the DI for people who have never had the precious opportunity while the Master was still alive. I think that is where the buck stops so-to-speak. Since this is the basis for Dzogchen practice, without Rinpoche this will probably be as far as it goes.

Rinpoche's DI and transmission were the absolute real deal, directly pointing to the essence very quickly for a lot of people and giving them the very basis for Dzogchen practice.

Continue to collaborate, practice together, help one another, and all of that. But I don't think that this thing can go much further without the essential main ingredient- Rinpoche's transmission.

For new students, may they have the merit and karmic connection to find a Dzogchen master even half as good as ChNN. Impermanence in samsara is very real and this is another harsh reminder.

For those of us that were fortunate enough to be in the right time and place, and with faith in what Rinpoche continuously taught us- we know what to do- apply the practices to the best of our ability.

84000 different dharmas for 84000 dispositions and all of that. I'm sure it has been said that Dzogchen will continue to be taught in this world system for quite some time, but perhaps certainly not with the uniqueness that ChNN was able to do.

We got the real deal from Rinpoche and I have my doubts that there is anyone (or will be anyone) who is the least bit qualified to continue this lineage.

I think if we are rational enough and respect Rinpoche and what he gave us then we have to be perfectly okay with this. Why would anyone ever want to entertain doubt about who can do what, or give what and to whom? With Rinpoche we never had a shadow of a doubt. Without Rinpoche, well...here we are.
Last edited by Terma on Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

:good: Terma, that pretty well describes my experience and the direction my thoughts are heading as well.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
mutsuk
Posts: 840
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:35 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by mutsuk »

Terma wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:11 am Why would anyone ever want to entertain doubt about who can do what, or give what and to whom?
You're kidding, right?
Terma
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:07 am

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Terma »

mutsuk wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:03 am
Terma wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:11 am Why would anyone ever want to entertain doubt about who can do what, or give what and to whom?
You're kidding, right?
There are enough fake teachers running around out there. For example, If one has doubts about the authenticity of the empowerment's given, or the one who has given them, then the entire foundation for which one bases there practice is on pretty shaky ground.

Not a good road to go down, IMO.
mutsuk
Posts: 840
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:35 pm

Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by mutsuk »

Terma wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:48 am
mutsuk wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:03 am
Terma wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:11 am Why would anyone ever want to entertain doubt about who can do what, or give what and to whom?
You're kidding, right?
There are enough fake teachers running around out there. For example, If one has doubts about the authenticity of the empowerment's given, or the one who has given them, then the entire foundation for which one bases there practice is on pretty shaky ground.

Not a good road to go down, IMO.
Ah OK, I thought you were wondering why one would question the authority of individuals intending to give DC empowerments, etc. So I agree, not a good road to go down with all these Khenpo Jaxon and other Banger Tulku around... As I see it, Norbu Rinpoche was a qualified master because :

1. He had a spiritual training in all (or most of) the field of buddhist culture (that includes the five sciences) and a pristine knowledge of the theories and practices of all Tibetan schools,
2. he could give direct introduction
3. he could give empowerments
4. he could give lungs
5. he made the necessary retreats up to the manifestations of signs
6. he read beyond measure about Dzogchen (and most evidently other topics)
7. he was kind enough to dedicate a large part of his life to teaching us with the benevolence and love of a father upon his children.

Basically, his knowledge of Buddhism in general and Dzogchen in particular completely qualified him. Therefore, the DC needs someone who:
1. has trained in Buddhist culture, philosophy, and practice (and not in a superficial mode),
2. can give DI
3. can give empowerments
4. can give lungs
5. has done retreats until signs
6. has studied Dzogchen beyond measure
7. shows compassion to others.

It would be worthless to accept less qualifications...
Locked

Return to “Dzogchen”