Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

[treehuggingoctopus]

ChNNr wrote and spoke at length about the role of the DC, and one thing he never said it was was some sort of general synod authorized to decide matters of doctrine.

He did not. However, the situation is now starkly different than it used to be, as there are no (published) instructions left, no Dharma heirs named, etc. -- and the governing body is, for various reasons which do not include ill will, incapable of going beyond the present state. Within the last year one fourth of members left, so the crisis is existential. Something clearly must be done. I am with Oldbob here. The DC was essentially a semi-feudal institution, with the all-powerful transcendent centre. The centre is gone and will not spontaneously re-appear. A synod seems the only way to go, even if only just this once. Otherwise semi-official, unauthorised bodies emerge which will make decisions that are instantly disputed, and a debilitating struggle for power seems inevitable.

If someone wants to offer empowerments received from ChNNr, they can, and it’s up to everyone to decide whether they want to receive them from that person or not.

I concur, but, as you know, even this is just a reading of the situation. Many SMS instructors vehemently reject the idea.

If the politicians backing one individual have not informed the 300 new-comers attending a proposed DI, about the “permission differences” between the DI of that individual, and the DI of ChNN, then perhaps these misunderstandings might later have serious consequences. Perhaps this is why an individual might require a written legal non-disclosure agreement and other written agreements before giving a DI.

If people, expecting to receive one thing receive another instead, they may be quite upset.... In this context, perhaps full disclosure of what will or will not be taught is a serious issue.

It certainly is a serious issue.

Since the transmission he gives (if what he gives is indeed transmission, I have heard that he says it is a misunderstanding as well) is only for those who never met ChNN, and those who attend need to sign the NDA, Yeshi is effectively creating a new sangha, a second DC. Those people may attend the DC events (which, I guess, either do not require specific lungs or require the lungs which Yeshi will give) but it is beyond me how they could be helped by SMS instructors -- unless Yeshi allows his students to talk about the transmission he will give to some (all?) SMS instructors. They certainly will not be able to receive help from other senior practitioners.

Frankly, a synod does not strike me as half as radical a departure from ChNN's vision of the DC.

[PeterC]

ChNNr wrote and spoke at length about the role of the DC, and one thing he never said it was was some sort of general synod authorized to decide matters of doctrine.

He did not. However, the situation is now starkly different than it used to be, as there are no (published) instructions left, no Dharma heirs named, etc. -- and the governing body is, for various reasons which do not include ill will, incapable of going beyond the present state. Within the last year one fourth of members left, so the crisis is existential. Something clearly must be done. I am with Oldbob here. The DC was essentially a semi-feudal institution, with the all-powerful transcendent centre. The centre is gone and will not spontaneously re-appear. A synod seems the only way to go, even if only just this once. Otherwise semi-official, unauthorised bodies emerge which will make decisions that are instantly disputed, and a debilitating struggle for power seems inevitable.

If someone wants to offer empowerments received from ChNNr, they can, and it’s up to everyone to decide whether they want to receive them from that person or not.

I concur, but, as you know, even this is just a reading of the situation. Many SMS instructors vehemently reject the idea.

Yes, some disagree. But there is no basis for their disagreeing. They could not name a single lineage that functions in the way they would like ChNNr’s to function. They also, in their comments, often excessively reify The Transmission in a way that suggests they don’t really understand empowerment in the Nyingma tradition.

[Malcolm]

If someone wants to offer empowerments received from ChNNr, they can, and it’s up to everyone to decide whether they want to receive them from that person or not.

I concur, but, as you know, even this is just a reading of the situation. Many SMS instructors vehemently reject the idea.

Well, some SMS instructors state that rebirth is false, while others teach that rig pa is a universal consciousness, like brahman. So, really, who cares what they think as a group? It’s quite clear many of them really have no clue and are not themselves qualified teachers, despite their certificates.

[treehuggingoctopus]

If someone wants to offer empowerments received from ChNNr, they can, and it’s up to everyone to decide whether they want to receive them from that person or not.

I concur, but, as you know, even this is just a reading of the situation. Many SMS instructors vehemently reject the idea.

Well, some SMS instructors state that rebirth is false, while others teach that rig pa is a universal consciousness, like brahman. So, really, who cares what they think as a group? It’s quite clear many of them really have no clue and are not themselves qualified teachers, despite their certificates.

All I am saying is that the decision of any student of ChNN to start teaching will be inevitably contested (and it will get ugly in no time). But we could, theoretically, officially allow such things -- again, if there is a synod, to steal PeterC's term, and a change of direction. Right now the ship is sailing literally nowhere.

PS. SMS instructors denying rebirth (and thus throwing Precious Vase to the dustbin). Rich and strange, this world is.

[Malcolm]

All I am saying is that the decision of any student of ChNN to start teaching will be inevitably contested (and it will get ugly in no time).

Everyone who was a student of ChNN is a lineage holder. He made this clear in so many teachings. The fact that some people rely on a letter written in 2014 that ChNN was strongly pressured to write in a moment of institutional anxiety as a result of his serious illness in Brazil in 2010, is well, sad.

The situation in the DC is clear. The DC is for direct students of ChNN only. That has no bearing on the continuation of the teachings that ChNN disseminated to the world.

PS. SMS instructors denying rebirth (and thus throwing Precious Vase to the dustbin). Rich and strange, this world is.

It takes all kinds.

[Giovanni]

All I am saying is that the decision of any student of ChNN to start teaching will be inevitably contested (and it will get ugly in no time).

Everyone who was a student of ChNN is a lineage holder. He made this clear in so many teachings. The fact that some people rely on a letter written in 2014 that ChNN was strongly pressured to write in a moment of institutional anxiety as a result of his serious illness in Brazil in 2010, is well, sad.

The situation in the DC is clear. The DC is for direct students of ChNN only. That has no bearing on the continuation of the teachings that ChNN disseminated to the world.

PS. SMS instructors denying rebirth (and thus throwing Precious Vase to the dustbin). Rich and strange, this world is.

It takes all kinds.

It certainly does. It’s weird that within the D.C. there are people who reject Rinpoches instructions. But it’s part of a wider weirdness. There are those with no direct knowledge of the Vajrayana who are quite certain that they are able to critique the Vajrayana and those who have spent decades immersed in it.

[Sādhaka]

There was recent talk of ‘anti-vaxx’ sentiment within the Dzogchen Community; and I can get with that. I’m totally fine with it.

However SMS instructors & students denying rebirth (as opposed to being simply agnostic regarding it), or equating the Natural State with “universal consciousness”? That’s beyond silly.

I mean if you want to practice both Dzogchen and Samkhya, in separate sessions, to see if they possibly lead to the same fruition (or to see if they are totally different) is one thing; but don’t mix things up, especially if you’re a SMS instructor, right?

[treehuggingoctopus]

The situation in the DC is clear. The DC is for direct students of ChNN only. That has no bearing on the continuation of the teachings that ChNN disseminated to the world.

Well. As far as stating what is goes, you are absolutely right on both points.

The first bit is very painful to many of us (and the pain will probably influence the response to the second bit). Hard to believe that the DC will have no future beyond us. And naturally there will be people struggling to preserve the purity of the transmission, as Yeshi, one of those involved in the struggle, put it.

[PeterC]

The situation in the DC is clear. The DC is for direct students of ChNN only. That has no bearing on the continuation of the teachings that ChNN disseminated to the world.

Well. As far as stating what is goes, you are absolutely right on both points.

The first bit is very painful to many of us (and the pain will probably influence the response to the second bit). Hard to believe that the DC will have no future beyond us. And naturally there will be people struggling to preserve the purity of the transmission, as Yeshi, one of those involved in the struggle, put it.

Whenever I see the term “purity of transmission”, I have to wonder, what exactly does this mean? In a couple of weeks we will be three years on from his resting his intent, and what have any of these “purity of transmission” advocates done to ensure his termas, which he taught constantly through his life, survive his students? Not a thing. I guess their worries about purity of transmission are lessened if nothing is transmitted.

[Tata1]

The situation in the DC is clear. The DC is for direct students of ChNN only. That has no bearing on the continuation of the teachings that ChNN disseminated to the world.

Well. As far as stating what is goes, you are absolutely right on both points.

The first bit is very painful to many of us (and the pain will probably influence the response to the second bit). Hard to believe that the DC will have no future beyond us. And naturally there will be people struggling to preserve the purity of the transmission, as Yeshi, one of those involved in the struggle, put it.

Whenever I see the term “purity of transmission”, I have to wonder, what exactly does this mean? In a couple of weeks we will be three years on from his resting his intent, and what have any of these “purity of transmission” advocates done to ensure his termas, which he taught constantly through his life, survive his students? Not a thing. I guess their worries about purity of transmission are lessened if nothing is transmitted.

It means that the one carrying the transmission has the knowledge, samaya and capacity to do so.

[Tata1]

There was recent talk of ‘anti-vaxx’ sentiment within the Dzogchen Community; and I can get with that. I’m totally fine with it.

However SMS instructors & students denying rebirth (as opposed to being simply agnostic regarding it), or equating the Natural State with “universal consciousness”? That’s beyond silly.

I mean if you want to practice both Dzogchen and Samkhya, in separate sessions, to see if they possibly lead to the same fruition (or to see if they are totally different) is one thing; but don’t mix things up, especially if you’re a SMS instructor, right?

This is the kind of talk that i dont find helpful at all. Talking about sms instructors(or any other person for that matter) with no name and criticising them because of things the supposely said or believe.

I understand the point of Sms not being a definitive authority on matters but slandering them in the basis of he said, she said are the kind of things that made this thread lock down.

[PeterC]

Well. As far as stating what is goes, you are absolutely right on both points.

The first bit is very painful to many of us (and the pain will probably influence the response to the second bit). Hard to believe that the DC will have no future beyond us. And naturally there will be people struggling to preserve the purity of the transmission, as Yeshi, one of those involved in the struggle, put it.

Whenever I see the term “purity of transmission”, I have to wonder, what exactly does this mean? In a couple of weeks we will be three years on from his resting his intent, and what have any of these “purity of transmission” advocates done to ensure his termas, which he taught constantly through his life, survive his students? Not a thing. I guess their worries about purity of transmission are lessened if nothing is transmitted.

It means that the one carrying the transmission has the knowledge, samaya and capacity to do so.

All that means Is that if someone offers empowerments received from ChNNr, and they consider that person unqualified, they can try to persuade people not to receive those empowements. They really can’t do anything more. They can’t prevent anyone from giving any teachings. And by insisting that absolutely nobody is qualified to give any empowements, it seems they think the right answer is for all of his own termas to die out.

We’re covering ground here that’s been covered extensively before. There’s no way that we can point to a meaningful role for the DC in the furtherance of ChNNr’s teachings. In punishing his works, in organizing events for his students, sure. But by their own admission they have no relevance to who gives empowements.

[Malcolm]

This is the kind of talk that i dont find helpful at all. Talking about sms instructors(or any other person for that matter) with no name and criticising them because of things the supposely said or believe.

These are real things real SMS instructors have said subsequent to Rinpoche's passing. Naming names won't help anyone.

[Malcolm]

And by insisting that absolutely nobody is qualified to give any empowements, it seems they think the right answer is for all of his own termas to die out.

Not just his own dream transmissions, his own lineage for every empowerment and reading transmission he ever gave as well. That is a huge body of work.

[Tata1]

Whenever I see the term “purity of transmission”, I have to wonder, what exactly does this mean? In a couple of weeks we will be three years on from his resting his intent, and what have any of these “purity of transmission” advocates done to ensure his termas, which he taught constantly through his life, survive his students? Not a thing. I guess their worries about purity of transmission are lessened if nothing is transmitted.

It means that the one carrying the transmission has the knowledge, samaya and capacity to do so.

All that means Is that if someone offers empowerments received from ChNNr, and they consider that person unqualified, they can try to persuade people not to receive those empowements. They really can’t do anything more. They can’t prevent anyone from giving any teachings. And by insisting that absolutely nobody is qualified to give any empowements, it seems they think the right answer is for all of his own termas to die out.

We’re covering ground here that’s been covered extensively before. There’s no way that we can point to a meaningful role for the DC in the furtherance of ChNNr’s teachings. In punishing his works, in organizing events for his students, sure. But by their own admission they have no relevance to who gives empowements.

I dont think anyone is saying that noone is qualified to give empowerments. In fact they are letting yeshe do his thing.They are saying that is not their decision to make. And caution is understandable. Would you do endorse for example kim "rimpoche" if he decided to give empowerment?

They are already doing a meaningful role in continuing the transmission. There have been hundred of courses this last year and that is very meaningful. This doesn't solve the root problem but one cannot dissmiss the hard work dc is doing because the situation is not ideal and resolved.

[Tata1]

This is the kind of talk that i dont find helpful at all. Talking about sms instructors(or any other person for that matter) with no name and criticising them because of things the supposely said or believe.

These are real things real SMS instructors have said subsequent to Rinpoche's passing. Naming names won't help anyone.

Keep talking about people (vajra brothers) who we dont know who they are or what they said wont help anyone either.
You made your point that sms teachers are not the final authority.

[Malcolm]

This doesn't solve the root problem...

Yup, you said it, and that is what is being discussed. That does not diminish the DC's present activities. But people in the DC are getting old. Time is passing, and we are living in time, as CHNN said over and over and over again.

[Tata1]

This doesn't solve the root problem...

Yup, you said it, and that is what is being discussed. That does not diminish the DC's present activities. But people in the DC are getting old. Time is passing, and we are living in time, as CHNN said over and over and over again.

Agree. And this talks need to happen.

[Norwegian]

Of all the myriad Tibetan Buddhist teachers out there, there's a number of unqualified teachers who presents themselves as qualified. This is normal. We know this happens.

So, it is up to people to do the necessary work to find out if a teacher is qualified or not. This can take a very short amount of time, but it can also take many years. It's always been like this. There is much in classical literature about how a student should be, and how a teacher should be, and we are constantly urged to familiarize ourselves well with these texts, knowing what positive qualities a student and a teacher should have, and what students a teacher should avoid, and likewise what teachers a student should avoid.

And, I am sure (in fact I know) that from Chögyal Namkhai Norbu's students, some are qualified to teach Dzogchen. Whether their activities occurs under the official institutional umbrella of the name "Dzogchen Community" or not, is really not the most important thing. The most important thing is that the teachings are practiced and preserved in a qualified way. In that way ChNN's teachings will survive for a long time to come.

All in all, I think, that the DC will have to decide whether they want to support this process or not. Because this process will unfold and maturate one way or another, regardless of what the DC says, due to good practitioners and qualified teachers. And so, if those who received teachings from ChNN follows his advice of working with circumstances, and doing their best, then I think over time, things won't be as bleak as they may seem right now.

That is my hope at least.

[treehuggingoctopus]

Whenever I see the term “purity of transmission”, I have to wonder, what exactly does this mean? In a couple of weeks we will be three years on from his resting his intent, and what have any of these “purity of transmission” advocates done to ensure his termas, which he taught constantly through his life, survive his students? Not a thing. I guess their worries about purity of transmission are lessened if nothing is transmitted.

Which is why I said that the present destination is nothingness. And time waits for no one.

Of all the myriad Tibetan Buddhist teachers out there, there's a number of unqualified teachers who presents themselves as qualified. This is normal. We know this happens.

So, it is up to people to do the necessary work to find out if a teacher is qualified or not. This can take a very short amount of time, but it can also take many years. It's always been like this. There is much in classical literature about how a student should be, and how a teacher should be, and we are constantly urged to familiarize ourselves well with these texts, knowing what positive qualities a student and a teacher should have, and what students a teacher should avoid, and likewise what teachers a student should avoid.

And, I am sure (in fact I know) that from Chögyal Namkhai Norbu's students, some are qualified to teach Dzogchen. Whether their activities occurs under the official institutional umbrella of the name "Dzogchen Community" or not, is really not the most important thing. The most important thing is that the teachings are practiced and preserved in a qualified way. In that way ChNN's teachings will survive for a long time to come.

All in all, I think, that the DC will have to decide whether they want to support this process or not. Because this process will unfold and maturate one way or another, regardless of what the DC says, due to good practitioners and qualified teachers.